Search Results for 'arc euro'

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by B Tulley on 22/04/2022 20:46:05:

Posted by JasonB on 22/04/2022 18:51:40:

Well I suppose you get what you pay for and if you are happy with that and it's for holding drills then all well and good.

I'd be looking for more like 0.0005" half a thou which can be had for not a lot of money.

Ah, you have a point – I was getting confused between mm and inches….

So my 0.005" (worst collet measured) equates to 0.127mm; Arceurotrade sell 0.015mm (0.0006" collets in a set (12 collets – I got 10) for double what I paid. Was any of the runout measured due to the way I was doing it – almost certainly, because I had a collet holder (ER16) held by another collet holder (ER32) so twice the opportunity for runout to be introduced. Not sure how else I can check the collets though?

Absolutely right to question how the measurements were made, because it's difficult. All bets are off in my opinion because the arrangement involves a stack of collet holders, a drill shank of unknown accuracy, and a Dial Indicator.

• The stack accumulates all the errors from spindle to the drill shank; it's not measuring the run-out of the final collet.
• Drill shanks may not be particularly straight or circular.
• How smooth is your Dial Indicator's mechanism? I have two Indicators, almost identical, but one of them has a slightly sticky mechanism. It tends to move the needle in a series of misleading jerks.
• How firmly is the Dial Indicator foot held to the drill shank and is it square? Likewise is the stand as solid as possible, avoiding having the Indicator at the end of a spindly set-up?

The 0.005" error could be explained by the bullet points above. The only thing that can be said with confidence is that the collet run-out is less than 0.005", perhaps a lot less.

I prefer not to confuse myself attempting precision measurements. Metrology is fascinating but hard to get right. Too easy to get wrapped round the axle in a self generated fog of confusion. (Don't ask how I know!) Instead I find it simpler to use the tool to cut metal and diagnose faults only if they matter. I don't worry unless the set-up as a whole fails to do the job. In the event of trouble in the Tulley workshop, too-cheap collets are an obvious suspect, but not as much as a collet chuck held in another collet chuck.

Consider the faulty set-up shown below:

Run-out measured at the chuck-jaws would be much lower than run-out measured at the far end. However, not only does the long rod amplify the true run-out, it adds more due to the rod bending under its own weight, and it will whip around when spun. The risk of whipping in this arrangement is a serious safety issue: bad enough to fly out of the chuck damaging the lathe and spifflicating the operator.

Dave

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Spot on, Bernard.

That is what I did on my imperial mill.

I removed the threaded part and replaced it with a rod I threaded metric on one end and imperial for the business end. Not a five minute job – but not that long to do it.

There are loads of choice on epay or ama zon for adjustable clamping/locking levers.

I bought mine from Arceuro long ago, before they stopped stocking them.

Possibly not quite as cheap, but can get them next day with Prime?

[B TulleyParticipant @btulley]

Posted by JasonB on 22/04/2022 18:51:40:

Well I suppose you get what you pay for and if you are happy with that and it's for holding drills then all well and good.

I'd be looking for more like 0.0005" half a thou which can be had for not a lot of money.

Ah, you have a point – I was getting confused between mm and inches….

So my 0.005" (worst collet measured) equates to 0.127mm; Arceurotrade sell 0.015mm (0.0006&quot collets in a set (12 collets – I got 10) for double what I paid. Was any of the runout measured due to the way I was doing it – almost certainly, because I had a collet holder (ER16) held by another collet holder (ER32) so twice the opportunity for runout to be introduced. Not sure how else I can check the collets though?

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I use a ER32 hexagon Stevenson collet block in the lathe chuck from Arc Euro Trade,to hold round rod when cutting threads in the lathe,the ER collets when firmly tightened have very good gripping power and do not slip even when cutting coarse whit threads,similarly taps can be held in an ER collet and holder with MT shank. The problem of work slipping in a 3 jaw chuck and taps slipping in jacob chucks went away when I started using ER collets, To my mind if a drill or lathe chuck has to be tightened to such a degree that the key has to be inserted in all the positions then it is putting undue strain on the chuck jaws,,and good three jaw chucks are a lot more expensive than er collets. I have found that ER collets will hold securely a 11/8 inch whit tap when making nuts for a f/size traction engine,though at this size the strain on a tailstock would be far too much,I have made a 4 mt holder which is bolted to the saddle of a 6 1/2in lathe,which also allows the use of 4mt drills .During my apprenticeship I never saw anyone tightening a chuck by multi insertions of a chuck key.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Second-hand versus new?

The problem with second-hand is the 'good make' matters very little if the machine is badly worn or spent 5 years stored in a damp cellar! Condition is everything, and judging it from a position of inexperience can be difficult: an unpromisingly grubby antique might be in better nick than a well-polished jobby covered in fresh paint, but is a knackered machine reconditioned by Coco The Clown! Before buying it, I'd want to see the lathe put through it's paces – nothing like cutting metal to reveal problems! Not much protection if the seller is uncooperative.

This car is a 'good make' and cost a lot of money new – would you buy it now?

New from a UK supplier comes with consumer protection so the thing can be sent back if a lemon is delivered. Slight problem is hobbyists typically can't afford to buy a new industrial machine, so we troop towards Far Eastern Hobby machines. Plenty of choice, especially size, delivered by a nice man, complete with most basic accessories, and a good chance it will work out of the box. If it doesn't send it back. However, the machines are made down to a price, perhaps less than 10% of the cost of the industrial version, so relatively lightly built, rough finish, and reduced inspection which might allow an important defect out of the factory. If this happens, the mistake is fixed by replacing or money back, not by guaranteeing all will be well at all times by requiring all new purchasers to pay a hefty inspection surcharge.

After far too much dithering I started with a Chinese mini-lathe. Light enough to be lifted by a fit man, OK on an ordinary table or bench, quiet, and big enough to tackle small and medium sized work. Does all the usual basic lathe stuff including screw-cutting. Not ideal for clockmaking or big enough for motorbikes, but comfortably good enough for 60 or 70mm diameter and up to 250mm long.

I learned a lot from mine, including how to spot what's good and bad about lathes! I had a notion I would upgrade to an ex-industrial or ex-educational machine once I knew what I was doing. In practice, my mini-lathe's main fault was being too small, not being riddled with Far-eastern faults! So I upgraded to the biggest lathe and mill that would fit in my workshop, chosen from a catalogue, and delivered a week later. All of my Far Eastern machines worked straight out of the box. Both lathes benefited from minor fettling, but the milling machine needed no work at all. Worst item by far was the 6×4 band-saw, but replacing the blade and an afternoon spent filing worked wonders. Despite being rough as old boots the saw works well. None of these machines is suitable for hard production work, but they all do more than I need.

I wouldn't buy a Far-eastern machine other than from a reputable UK supplier. Not because machines from other sources are all rubbish, but because buying direct from China, or from a box shifter, or an opportunist could be admin trouble if a dud arrives. One 'bargain' I looked at required rejects to be shipped at buyer expense to a depot in Germany – not cheap or easy! ArcEuroTrade get plenty of positive customer feedback, and I had no bother with Warco when an expensive item went missing in transit – they just sent another. Searching the forum by supplier name will reveal who gets most kudos and brickbats, but in general all the main British suppliers do the right thing in the end.

Not really about the make in my view, more about condition and what happens if you get a wrong 'un. The make might even be a disadvantage: Myford lathes are so well thought of they attract premium prices, even in poor condition. The reputation is well deserved, but they aren't the best British lathes ever made: at the time, affordable rather than top-of-the-range. I'd rather own a second-hand ex-educational Boxford, provided of course it was in good condition.

Whatever you buy, manage expectations. Lathes don't automatically cut metal perfectly just like that. The operator has a lot to learn, so ask on the forum.

Dave

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

This is the sort of thing I'd rather buy than make, but don't let me put Calum off. This is an interesting challenge, with much to be learned from it.

As a simplification I suggest boring the drawbar's 10mm tap hole clean through, rather than leaving a bottom. Makes cutting the thread easier because swarf can escape both sides and there's no risk of the tap (or an internal screw cutter) smacking into the bottom of the hole or into a mass of compacted swarf.
DC31k mentions what I perceive to be the hard part of this job, which is firmly holding the part during each machining operation, and keeping it concentric throughout. For example, if the long MT taper is cut first, and the part reversed to cut the ER collar end and thread, it's tricky to grip a taper with a chuck.

One way of solving that problem is to machine the whole from a long rod passing through the lathe spindle held in a 4-jaw chuck so it can be accurately re-centred with a DTI each time it's slid forward. The rod inside the spindle is round and easily gripped by the chuck. First step, advance the rod enough to cut the outer collar and drill a centre hole for later, when the tail-stock is needed. Second step, slide the rod forward far enough forward to cut the taper and supporting it with a live centre in the tailstock. The thin end of the taper is near the chuck, so cut a groove just wide and deep enough for the tool and tool-post to run into without hitting anything. This leaves drilling, boring and tapping to the end. As none of these require high accuracy, the taper or collar can be supported by a fixed steady, and parting off the taper to face off and do the 10mm thread shouldn't be too difficult. (Though I'd remove the bar and saw the job off because parting-off long work becomes high-risk just before the cut finishes.)

Planning a complex machining job involves answering a few questions:

• How can I cut the shape?
• How can I hold the job whilst the cutting is going on, especially if maintaining accuracy is important?
• Can I overcome any limitations imposed by my machine's geometry?

All the questions have to be honestly and completely answered for each stage of production. For example, the method I describe above fails on my lathe, because it's spindle hole is only 26mm, and the bar needed to implement the method is 50mm diameter! The lathe's geometry doesn't support my method, so I need to think again.

Milling cutters can be held in an ordinary 3 or 4 jaw chuck. Works for light cuts, and is one of the many reasons lathe's don't make good milling machines. Replacing an ordinary chuck with an MT taper ER chuck and drawbar is an improvement, but it may not be worth the effort because the saddle and vertical vice are still compromised.

DC31K also mentioned Stevenson's ER Collet Blocks available square or hexagonal.

You could make your own round version and hold it in a 4-jaw. No need for the MT taper or a drawbar, a large diameter shank will be gripped well enough to mill on a lathe, even without flats. Less metal and much easier to make.

Hours of fun ahead!

Dave

[MadMikeParticipant @madmike]

Taking AdrianR's point. Making your own tools is something we all appreciate. however I would do a quick evaluation of time, cost and need for the tool. As others have pointed out there are some potential problems with making this adaptor yourself. As Adrian has pointed out our friends at ArcEuro Trade have the MT5-MT3 adaptor you require in stock. Cost is about £13.50. I would simply buy the adaptor and get on with doing something creative with my machine. After all can you actually produce this apparently simple, but not quite so simple item at that price or anything even close to it?

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

I know the appeal of making your own tooling, but did you know arceurotrade sells a MT5-ER32 adaptor

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Milling-Collet-Chucks-Morse-Taper-Shank/ER32-Milling-Collet-Chucks?gclid=Cj0KCQjw0umSBhDrARIsAH7FCofckCh2l_SiH5NFKu5JJ4EksiuniPev7TZx6hLHUjPDebYyh32vm5waApCbEALw_wcB

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If anyone else has a major problem, the CL300 is made by Sieg, who also supply the machine to Chester and Arc Euro, in different colour schemes.

Spare boards for S2 and S3 lathes are, or were, available from Arc Euro.

A poster on here, John Rudd (Hope he doesn't mind me posting this ) is very knowledgeable on these boards, and repaired one for a friend.

Howard

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Like the OP, my garage AKA workshop suffers from damp in the winter. My solution for the measuring kit was to treat myself to a cabinet (See photo below) to store it all. The cabinet itself is kept in the house.

 

Other stuff like MT chucks, lathe chucks, milling cutters etc are stored in the workshop in plastic food boxes with sealable lids. I also use several protective products from Arc Euro (other substances and suppliers are available). These are used both in the boxes and on the machinery, where any horizontal surface attracts condensation.

Edited By Anthony Knights on 13/04/2022 13:42:10

[David TocherParticipant @davidtocher94033]

I’ve an Eccentric Engineering tangential tool holder and I have problems with breaking the tip of the tool. After endless regrinds of the original HSS tool supplied I bought more HSS tool steel from ArcEuro Trade. I’m happy that it’s reasonable quality HSS. I’m using a 150mm diameter grinding wheel, angling the tool rest to below centre. The resultant ground angle, across the diagonal, is between 55 and 60 as measured with a thread gauge. Because the wheel is a small diameter the ground face is obviously curved. Using a diamond file, I’ve rounded the tip as recommended. It cuts brass and aluminium without any problems but when cutting steel, I find the tip breaks off. I’ve used home-ground knife tools on the same steel without any problems. I’m wondering if the curved ground face weakens the tip. Any suggestions as to what am I doing wrong?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

you need a copy of Ivan Law's book on Gears and Gear cutting.

Ketan will provide, or even your local library book

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi,

Ian is on holiday. He will be back to work on Monday. As he will be spending time to catch up on outstanding issues, I am happy to respond.

Dave – SOD has covered the issues in his post by providing links to related posts. Generally these problems have resulted from our updating the website to provide a better more inclusive shopping experience to our European visitor base.

The updated site looks at where the visitor is from by using I.P. geolocation software. If the visitors I.P. location is identified as being from one of the 27 EU states, the site automatically gives them prices in Euros only, and calculates all costs in Euros including carriage, duties and taxes for their specific country.

This change has however effected a small percentage (I think) of our U.K. visitors. Most such visitors find that the problem clears itself after a few days, or by clearing old cookies based on our site pre-update. However, some people at certain locations in U.K. are still having a problem after clearing cookies. It is difficult to figure out why this is, and for this I can only apologise. All I can suggest is if you know what you need, give us a call and we will try our best to assist.

Thank you,

Ketan at ARC

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

With regard to UK suppliers, Arc Euro or Axminster, Amadeal, and SPG may also have machine which would do what you want.

After sales service is an important item to consider, in case there is a problem, or you need spares or extra accessories.

If there is a Model Engineering Club within a reasonable distance, join it. You will be among kindred spirits and will learn a lot from other members.

If you say where youare, others may be able to suggest clubs to visit.

Howard.

[Jim GuthrieParticipant @jimguthrie82658]

I've been trying to access the Arc Euro site for the past couple of days and get this error message when being refused access :-

Server Error in "/" Application

Runtime error

I use Firefox, but tried other browsers with the same result. I can't remember seeing an error report like his before.

Jim.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Trouble with ebay is it's a market-place, not a single seller. What's on offer varies from fake through to top-end surplus, even from the same supplier. Getting a refund in the event a lemon arrives can be problematic,

I don't know of any way of guaranteeing an ebay purchase will be fit for purpose. Could be a bargain or not, it's always a risk. Mostly ebay has worked out for me, and the few occasions I've come unstuck were due to pushing my luck – 'bargains' that were too cheap to be real. My purchases are always made with the possibility it might go sour in mind, and I take the rough with the smooth. No floods of tears if I get one wrong.

In practice, I prefer to buy tools from mid-range reputable suppliers who sort problems out. RDGs costs are higher in part because the price covers a high level of customer service in the event there's a foul up. A fly-by-night abroad has fewer obligations, and might not give any satisfaction at all.

My ER collets came from Warco (metric) and ArcEuro(Imperial). They're all good.

Dave

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

John

That's a much more secure and engineering way of going about things.

Putting a set of extra high jaws in the box with the vice to be used like that, and occasionally in the normal position, seems to me better than suggesting using the tiny lips left when the standard jaw is utilised. Maybe add tapped holes in the top of the fixed jaw too so the standard jaws could be set flat giving a reasonably substantial lip too. Such holes would also let you add clamps to either hold work to the top of the vice or provide extra retention to a component which is difficult to hold securely by simple clamping. I've had jobs shift for lack of that extra top clamp.

Things that I might well have done to my vices if the basic casting were more suitable.

The common way is more of a "looks nice in the specifications" thing rather than "really useful for all sorts of difficult stuff". But throwing in tall jaws et al puts the price up without the gains being immediately obvious to the ordinary purchaser. That said I'd have thought that Arc Euros reputation for quality could stand the extra few pounds for two more tapped holes and taller jaws to use on the back and front.

My experience suggests that the 4" size would gain most from readily available, adequately secure, extra capacity given by tall jaws used as shown in Johns pictures. I see a fair number of jobs that wouldn't fit the standard opening of a 4" Versatile but would do just fine with Johns taller jaws on back and front.

With my VJ400 ones I, of course, just pull the pin and shift the nut for extra opening beyond a normal 4" vice capacity. But thats why I bought them after all. Removing the standard jaws and fitting taller jaws back and front on a Versatile would be nearly as easy. Beats the heck out of pulling the vice and the "how do I strap this to the table" headache for sure. Let alone tramming the vice in when you put it back.

Clive

[colin hamiltonParticipant @colinhamilton16803]

Thanks everyone. ARC Euro seem to be a well respected supplier so I think I am just going to go with them. Although I may go for the 125mm Versatile with the swivel base rather than the 160mm SG iron

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

I like to work comfortably within a thou (or 0.025mm or whatever it is) when turning or milling so the vice would have to be at least that precise. Preferably more. If you could get it within a few tenths of a thou would be ideal but not easy.

I doubt you will achieve those tolerances of the Arc Euro vices at 0.003mm per 100mm etc on a home milling machine. Those vices are ground finish, which is a whole other ballgame.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

OK for me in the UK.

Ketan has posted at least twice recently explaining that the ArcEuro website is being upgraded to fix problems caused by Brexit, and that the change isn't trouble-free. Necessary because UK and European customers have to be processed differently now.

I haven't noticed any problems at all, and the issues – if they've not been nailed – seem to relate to older browser and operating system versions, especially Mac, or having an IP address that doesn't identify the callers origin.

Two I remember are: Apple Safari and Testing the Euro IOSS

Dave

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, yes it seems to be ok Transfer Punch Set

Regards Nick.

[MechanismParticipant @mechanism]

Just wondering if Arc Euro Trade is still active.

They're one of the few places that have a metric transfer punch set but the website has been giving an error recently.

[colin hamiltonParticipant @colinhamilton16803]

Thanks everyone. Yes it's a bridgeport. I checked on the Bridgeport user group and the 6 inch seems to be the standard. I know the ARC euro Vices are imported same as the vevor items but I was wondering if there was going to a difference in quality?

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Neil Lickfold on 05/04/2022 20:34:34:

My question is, what is the normally acceptable run out on a milling vice for hobby use?

Neil

 

It depends really over how great a distance you're measuring and what the end user himself deems acceptable for his own purposes.

Some of the vices sold for hobby use quantify the level of precision you can expect them to meet.

Eta: I'm not sure what Neil and Dave mean by the funny gap/groove. Could we see a picture? We're not talking about the swarf gutter* beneath the fixed jaw, I take it?

*I'd always assumed it was primarily a swarf gutter and not a stress reliever. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Edited By Bill Phinn on 05/04/2022 21:22:08