Gas Tap Valves. Vintage

[howardbParticipant @howardb]

You don’t need a leaky gas valve to cause a serious gas explosion.

“Emergency services were called to the property in Cleat Hill, at about 07:30 BST on 19 October after an explosion and subsequent fire at a house.

The exact cause has not been given but an investigation has begun and is being led by Bedfordshire Police, Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service and the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).

Bedford Borough Council said specialist equipment had been brought in to support the work being carried out.

Gas distributor Cadent said its initial investigations found gas was detected at the scene, but it was not the odorised supply that flows through its network and into people’s homes, but rather odour-free natural gas from a pocket underground.

“This gas has no smell to it, and we need to use sensitive gas detection equipment to check the levels in the area,” it said.

It has left one house totally destroyed, one person dead and another seriously injured who sadly also later died.

Caused by a leak from a borehole for a heat pump installation penetrating a pocket of natural gas deep underground.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjjw20y6p3vo

 

[Neil Wyatt]

On Neil Wyatt Said:

The law allows competent individuals to work on their own appliances, but it is illegal to hire an unregistered person (or attempt it yourself) for profit or as a tradesperson.

Some consideration of risk and hazard is appropriate – a gas regulator on a model that is only filled and used with gas outdoors probably presents much smaller hazard and level of risk than a gas burner used outdoors.

 

No it does NOT!

You cannot do work on your own fixed gas appliance (well for the pedants possibly under the supervision of a suitably qualified and registered person). You have to be registered as well as competent. Doing it for others even not for profit is also illegal.

Similar rules apply to electrical installations considered high risk “Part P” but in this case you can do it yourself but have to convince your local building control or a qualified and registered person to authorise it before you start and sign off and report it afterwards. This is normally worth the effort.

Robert.

Edit: information sheet https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/media/1449/who-can-legally-work-on-a-gas-appliance-factsheet.pdf

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

The type of gas matters too. A gas-fitter registered with Gas-Safe to install and service mains-gas equipment cannot simply do that with tank or bottled gas (usually propane). He or she has to be certified for that, separately.

It’s not cheap either. A friend in the trade tells me these Government-created “accreditation” schemes involve annual refresher-training costing several hundred Pounds in fees plus a week without income, often well away from home so incurring travel and accommodation costs.

More, he says usually the attendees know more than the lecturers! That’s because although the instructors are up-to-date with the theory and the regulations they are no longer out in the field – or homes – so do not gain experience on the latest products.

 

Turning back to the OP…. Frankly I would not touch attempting to repair the gas-ring’s components. Buy new ones if available. If not, scrap it. It’s clearly not an “antique” any more than most solid-fuel stoves you see now are “antiques” even if superficially copying designs from long-gone manufacturers’ catalogues.

 

Oh – and you need be “Heatas” -registered to install that pseudo-Victorian wood-burner in your house, while we’re at it.

[deeParticipant @dee]

For an international forum and this international thread, there’s a lot of noise.
The bean counters and bureaucrats are welcome to bite each others heads off elsewhere, start a separate thread about that if you wish, don’t pollute this one.

For those wishing to contribute intelligently, if the dears who don’t know which end of the hair curlers to hold, this isn’t for you.

What is concerning is that some jurisdictions commerce, its legislation (in authoritarian decline), is supposedly to be held higher than taking responsibility with pragmatic, critical thinking to good working practice!

Basics such as:

Make sure when making adjustments you have:

Emptied the lines from source. Turned off main supply valves at source.
The correct flow rate regulator for the burner.
The correct hose type. Plenty of hose. Plenty of distance.
The correct connectors. PTFE gas tape. The correct hose fasteners.
A detection fluid applied to all parts, for pressure tests once all adjustments are made.
Anything leaks, make it not leak, reliably.

Then and only then do some real world tests outside, assessing numerous other factors like temperature transfer within device, longevity, mounting, winds cowls and any other factor that may detract from reliable performance.

 

Let’s not pretend like schoolboys who’ve never played with matches, or worse behave like a bunch of old women trying to prevent getting the job done effectively. Behave yourselves, this is the world of engineering which is all about setting fire to sh** in a controlled manner.

 

Lastly, grateful though I am to the sensible, positive real world contributions, if you are unable to confirm something definitely, please don’t post.

 

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

The introduction to the regulations linked to by Robert opens with:

This Guide is for businesses placing gas appliances or fittings on the market in Great Britain (“GB”)

Being “placed on the market” is official speak for offering for sale.  I read that as saying you are able to disregard the regulations when making something for your own use, however if you sell the item it must comply with the regulations.

Having said that I would not condone the taking of unnecessary risks with gases.

Russell

 

[dee]

On dee Said:

For an international forum and this international thread, there’s a lot of noise.
The bean counters and bureaucrats are welcome to bite each others heads off elsewhere, start a separate thread about that if you wish, don’t pollute this one.

For those wishing to contribute intelligently, if the dears who don’t know which end of the hair curlers to hold, this isn’t for you.

What is concerning is that some jurisdictions commerce, its legislation (in authoritarian decline), is supposedly to be held higher than taking responsibility with pragmatic, critical thinking to good working practice!

Basics such as:

Make sure when making adjustments you have:

Emptied the lines from source. Turned off main supply valves at source.
The correct flow rate regulator for the burner.
The correct hose type. Plenty of hose. Plenty of distance.
The correct connectors. PTFE gas tape. The correct hose fasteners.
A detection fluid applied to all parts, for pressure tests once all adjustments are made.
Anything leaks, make it not leak, reliably.

Then and only then do some real world tests outside, assessing numerous other factors like temperature transfer within device, longevity, mounting, winds cowls and any other factor that may detract from reliable performance.

 

Let’s not pretend like schoolboys who’ve never played with matches, or worse behave like a bunch of old women trying to prevent getting the job done effectively. Behave yourselves, this is the world of engineering which is all about setting fire to sh** in a controlled manner.

 

Lastly, grateful though I am to the sensible, positive real world contributions, if you are unable to confirm something definitely, please don’t post.

 

So, have you fixed the bl#@^dy thing yet?

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

My landlord insisted that the house be rewired, the “qualified” foreman was 21, the rest younger ! You have never seen such a mess and incompetence ! 5 years later the same company came back and did a retest and found several faults – when it was pointed out that they had done the work – no more was said ! So much for modern qualifications ! I  could have done a better safer job and I have the gear.

Now a days being qualified means having the right bit of paper and has little to do with being competent !

A sore point with me !  Noel.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Nice of you to join the conversation again.
You say it’s an international thread, where are you located? We can then consider any differences if you are notin the UK
I’m afraid you don’t get to dictate who posts or what is posed on a thread. As long as it is on topic, dosn’t contain searwords, personal attacks, politics, religon or sex, it’s OK. (you are getting a bit close to the line on a couple of these). See https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/conduct/

You asked for advice on reparing part of a gas appliance, discussion of the legislation and rules applying to such work is very much on topic.

Robert.

[alecs]

On alecs Said:

On dee Said:

For an international forum and this international thread, there’s a lot of noise.
The bean counters and bureaucrats are welcome to bite each others heads off elsewhere, start a separate thread about that if you wish, don’t pollute this one.

For those wishing to contribute intelligently, if the dears who don’t know which end of the hair curlers to hold, this isn’t for you.

What is concerning is that some jurisdictions commerce, its legislation (in authoritarian decline), is supposedly to be held higher than taking responsibility with pragmatic, critical thinking to good working practice!

Basics such as:

Make sure when making adjustments you have:

Emptied the lines from source. Turned off main supply valves at source.
The correct flow rate regulator for the burner.
The correct hose type. Plenty of hose. Plenty of distance.
The correct connectors. PTFE gas tape. The correct hose fasteners.
A detection fluid applied to all parts, for pressure tests once all adjustments are made.
Anything leaks, make it not leak, reliably.

Then and only then do some real world tests outside, assessing numerous other factors like temperature transfer within device, longevity, mounting, winds cowls and any other factor that may detract from reliable performance.

 

Let’s not pretend like schoolboys who’ve never played with matches, or worse behave like a bunch of old women trying to prevent getting the job done effectively. Behave yourselves, this is the world of engineering which is all about setting fire to sh** in a controlled manner.

 

Lastly, grateful though I am to the sensible, positive real world contributions, if you are unable to confirm something definitely, please don’t post.

 

So, have you fixed the bl#@^dy thing yet?

oops, wrong quote

[Russell Eberhardt]

On Russell Eberhardt Said:

The introduction to the regulations linked to by Robert opens with:

This Guide is for businesses placing gas appliances or fittings on the market in Great Britain (“GB”)

Being “placed on the market” is official speak for offering for sale.  I read that as saying you are able to disregard the regulations when making something for your own use, however if you sell the item it must comply with the regulations.

Having said that I would not condone the taking of unnecessary risks with gases.

Russell

 

See Robert’s response to my similar question #852846

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Thanks Duncan.

[dee]

On dee Said:…

What is concerning is that some jurisdictions commerce, its legislation (in authoritarian decline), is supposedly to be held higher than taking responsibility with pragmatic, critical thinking to good working practice!…

 

Behave yourselves, this is the world of engineering which is all about setting fire to sh** in a controlled manner.

 

Lastly, grateful though I am to the sensible, positive real world contributions, if you are unable to confirm something definitely, please don’t post.

 

I sympathise, and am for taking responsibility, critical thinking, good working practice and setting fire to sh** in a controlled manner.

Problem is assessing whether or not members know what that entails, and your posts suggest gaps!  I think the forum is obliged to point out issues when a member explores a dangerous job, without appropriate skills or tools, hasn’t listed the risks, or identified what his responsibilities actually are. Could be an expert, but maybe he needs help.

When it comes to responsibilities, gas is exceptionally complicated.  There are a mass of overlapping legal requirements, most of which probably don’t apply unless the item is sold or transferred to someone else.  Probably!  It’s murky, and I’m not aware of a guideline that simply explains what can and cannot be done at home by a private individual.   Unusually UK Health and Safety Legislation forbids private individuals from manufacturing gas appliances, reason presumably being that gas wanders and might blow up a distant neighbour.  It happens.  Further legal fog because the meaning of “appliance” and “manufacturing” will have been defined elsewhere by case law, and if not, it might have to defined during your prosecution.

If there is a serious accident, be aware responsibility and accountability have sharp teeth and the legal process takes for ever.

I’m happy to take risks, but only of I understand them.  I’d rather read what the forum thinks than put my head in the sand!  How likely is the project to go wrong, and how serious is the impact if it does?  On bystanders as well as your good self.

The British legal system is a mess. For centuries, politicians have added to the tottering heap without bothering to tidy up what went before.  No wonder it’s inconsistent. Voters have a lot to answer for – we favour politicians  making simple promises over those who commit to fixing complicated historic muddles, and have the necessary brains and stamina.  Don’t blame bureaucrats – they don’t make the law!

Dave

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Hi Dave,

You said “When it comes to responsibilities, gas is exceptionally complicated.  There are a mass of overlapping legal requirements, most of which probably don’t apply unless the item is sold or transferred to someone else.  Probably!”

There is no probably about it when it comes to making ga appliance or parts for them. The regulations (Regulation 2016/426 and the Gas Appliances (Enforcement) and Miscellaneous Amendments Regulations 2018: Great Britain) specifically state this:

paragraph 5 defines a manufacturer as:
“A manufacturer is a person who has a gas appliance or fitting manufactured or has a gas appliance or fitting designed or manufactured, and markets that gas appliance or fitting under their name or trademark or uses the appliance for their own purpose.”

And if that is not clear enough 5 1) repeats it:

“Before placing gas appliances or fittings on the GB market or when using for their own purposes,..”.

Gas is dangerous.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gas-appliances-enforcement-regulations-2018/regulation-2016426-and-the-gas-appliances-enforcement-and-miscellaneous-amendments-regulations-2018-great-britain

There are very few exemptions to any of the safety / UKCA / CE regulations for private , non commercial cases but few make it this clear that there is no exception.
Two exceptions I am aware of is for Radio Amateurs (EMC etc) and personal use simple pressure vessels.

Robert.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Interesting to see what AI thinks😉😉

Bullfinch have a bit that may be of interest. Seems blowtorches are not covered by that reg so if using one to heat your hot tube or fuel your engine then that would seem to be outside the reg. Unless you use a blowtorch to do your toast

https://bullfinch-gas.co.uk/safety-and-technical/10-safety-technical/72-ce-marking

 

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

I searched, as Jason did, in several places, and, after asking the following question:

“A model engineer forum member is asserting that “Regulation 2016/426 and the Gas appliances (enforcement) and Miscellaneous Amendments Regulations 2018: Great Britain” means a person is forbidden to make, entirely for their own personal use, a one-off gas burner to power a model steam engine, for example, without falling foul of this legislation. Is he right?”

 

it came up with results like the following:

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

As I said , murky territory. Robert and Bill’s findings are hard to reconcile!

In general, ChatGPT’s summary of the “economic triggers” approach is how I understand the intent.  Hobbyists, R&D etc are exempt from legislation intended to protect consumers. Hurrah!

Not the full story though.  It ignores what happens when an accident, even on private property, injures someone else.  Then a different shower of legislation applies!  It’s why clubs insure model boilers against personal injury claims, which requires boilers to be inspected.  Basically, unless the chemicals are specifically banned, we can manufacture rocket fuel in our cellars but will be in deep trouble if the apparatus blows up and wipes out the neighbours.  Whether or not the apparatus is an appliance matters little – not if it caused injury.

Personally, I favour kicking this kind of question into the long-grass and putting a car-park on top.  Reason is that, so far as I know, gas has never caused a significant hobby accident involving other people.  If it ain’t bust, don’t fix it!

Unfortunately, the world is swarming with irresponsible individuals, and stupidities that hurt other people can’t be ignored.  Something has to be done to discourage Jackasses from causing accidents, and there are plenty of foolish folk about.

We live in an imperfect world.  What’s emerging from the Grenfell Tower enquiry is horrifying. Apart from negligence, incompetence, unwise cost-cutting, muddle and over-complicated governance seriously weakened by under-resourcing, Grenfell has become the Metropolitan Police Force’s largest ever criminal investigation – corruption on top of everything else.

Dave

 

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Probably the gretaest danger is from those who DON’T know but fondly imagine that they do.

MANY years my opposite number, who condsidered himself to be superior to any Engineer, called me up, the lights and power to his office were all off.

His office was on another site, and the power input had tripped. Switching off everything and resetting the trip allowed power for the lights, and then for his secretary’s type writer, and everything else.

Finally, the electirc kettle, which blew the trip,

Switch off, reset and investigare. Green wire to the Live pin, Red to the earth!!!!!!!!

“I tripped over the cable and rewired it” “Lucky you didn’t electrocute someone! Don’t you know the colour code?” ” “NO” ” In which case you should have left well alone”

A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing

Howard

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Well the first thing wrong with the AI responses is that they are referencing EUROPEAN LAW not UK. Now they are basically the same but it shows the AI is not being dilgent.

The exemption Bulfinch seem to be using is “use in industrial processes carried out on industrial premises” (3, 2) bullet one). That clearly does not apply to hobby use. The reason for this exemption, and the others, is that there are other regulations that apply. If Bulfinch are using this exemption then they should not be selling to consumers.

I suggest that the use “hot water production” encompasses a model steam boiler.

The AI responses saying personal use is exemt are clearly wrong as I said in https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/topic/gas-tap-valves-vintage/page/3/#post-854365

The regulation specficly mentions “own purposes” i.e. personl use, as being INCLUDED not once but TWICE.

These free AI LLMs just scoop stuff off the web. It is a common misconception that personally made items or items that are not sold are exempt from the UKCA / CE regulations. With a very few exemptions they are not.

Do you think it is OK to build your own car without reference to the relevent regulations and getting it approved?
I hope not. Kit cars have to be independently inspected and approved.  The changes to regulations around cars killed off a lot of the kit car “industry” and a good thing as some were death traps.
Similar reguations apply to trailers “IVA” https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/individual-vehicle-approval-iva-for-light-trailers-help-to-get-a-pass
I hope all the loco transporting trailer home builders have done this. You don’t want to find out when you have an accident (even if not your fault) and the insurance compny won’t pay out and possibly you are fined.

I’m a professional engineer and have been trained on CE / UK marking and have been authorised to make declarations of conformity for EMC, LVD, Machinery and Radio 3 companies over 30 years. I’m also authorised to make determintions of compliance with legislation for aircraft and UAS.

If you are going to post screenshots of AI results at least include the reference links the AI has provided so we can check them.

Robert.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Best of luck quoting AI if you’re in front of the judge.

The regulations Robert referred to (here to save you looking back), define a manufacturer as “A manufacturer is a person who has a gas appliance or fitting manufactured or has a gas appliance or fitting designed or manufactured, and markets that gas appliance or fitting under their name or trademark or uses the appliance for their own purpose. (my emphasis). No need to market it.

That seems all encompassing to me.

Having said that, the SFED boiler test code has a section on testing home made gas tanks up to 250 mL, and I think that document was prepared in conjunction with HSE, so as usual with government regulations the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing

Edit, Robert beat me to it.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I also take issue with Bulfinch saying their gas torches don’t have to be, and are not, CE / UKCA marked. Even if the Gas afety regulations don’t apply thet torch still needs to meet any other directives. As  minimum this is the General Product Safety Directive.

The OPSS seems to think it applies to blow torches, see this product safety recall,

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/620a4e4c8fa8f54915f43697/2103-0002-product-recall-blowtorch-flame-gun.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/product-safety-alerts-reports-recalls/product-recall-yunhetu-yt-818-blowtorch-flame-gun-2103-0002

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Interesting that you mention kit cars and them having to go through an IVA test before they can be registered and driven on the road ( track day only cars don’t usually need such approval so you can still build and drive them).

On the other hand you do not need to put a model traction engine through such tests to get it registerd and be able to drive on the public highway. Appart from filling in a couple of forms they only need a copy of the boiler test cert.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Bill’s AI sponse mentions the New Legislative Framework (NLF and commercial triggers. This still does not exampt gas appliances. For example consider the definitions from the latest NLF EU directives

Gas:

(17)
‘manufacturer’ means any natural or legal person who manufactures an appliance or a fitting or who has an appliance or a fitting designed or manufactured, and markets that appliance or fitting under his name or trademark or uses the appliance for his own purposes;
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.081.01.0099.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:081:TOC

Toys

(3)
‘manufacturer’ means any natural or legal person who manufactures a toy or has a toy designed or manufactured, and markets that toy under that person’s name or trademark;
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2025/2509/oj/eng

So the gas regulations specifically prohibit “own purposes” but the toys regultions don’t. You can make your own toys but not your own gas appliance or fittings.

Robert.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Interestingly Google AI says you have to conform with CE/UKCA if giving homemade toys away.

https://ccst-cpc-app.azurewebsites.net/staying-safe-and-accident-prevention/toy-safety/
https://www.conformance.co.uk/handmade-or-homemade-toys

Which seems to contradict the “commercial trigger” interpretation.
I picked toys beause it is a common home making activity and is covered by guidance. Making Gas burners is not common.

Robert.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, my trailer hasn’t been approved, but I built it back in 2006, and is exempt, although I can’t currently use it, because I’ve no towbar on my current car, and it needs a new board in it.

Regards Nick.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

But as we are generally not giving them to anyone maybe this question is more appropriate.

[Author]

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