Gas Tap Valves. Vintage

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Interesting that you mention kit cars and them having to go through an IVA test before they can be registered and driven on the road ( track day only cars don’t usually need such approval so you can still build and drive them).

On the other hand you do not need to put a model traction engine through such tests to get it registerd and be able to drive on the public highway. Appart from filling in a couple of forms they only need a copy of the boiler test cert.

That is interesting and possibly due to two or three factors:
It’s a model of a previously accepted design
It’s a “tractor”
It has limited speed.

Track day car are still subject to independent inspection – scrutineering

Robert.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

But as we are generally not giving them to anyone maybe this question is more appropriate.

I think you misread my post, it was a follow on to the previous one where I was using toys as an example of where you CAN make your own.

The second post was to illustrate that in the “commercial trigger” used (wrongly) by AI as a reason why gas regulations did not apply was not applied by AI in this case.

I’m pretty sure the disparity is due to the lack of information on CE marking gas appliances on the internet. Pretty much the only thing “picked up” by any of AI LLMs was the (incorrect) information on the Bullfinch website. I contrast there are lots of references to toy making and approval on the internet.

I’ve seen this even before AI where one website would place a bit of incorrect information on the web and lots of other sites and blogs would pick it up and propagate the mistake. Often this even included poor grammar or spelling mistakes so you could be sure it came from the same source. One this sort of misinformation starts it is very hard to correct.

I note no one has commented on my post 854418.

Robert.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, as far as giving away/selling ones used belongings/toys outside one’s household, I dare say there are countless thousands of people that don’t go through any self-certification process, being it at a car boot sale, jumble sale, charity, family outside the household, friends, put outside houses with a free note on them, social media. However would such a thing be policed.

Regards Nick.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Under Article 1(35) of Regulation (EU) 2016/426 (which the UK legislation enforces), the law explicitly states that the regulation does not apply to “any natural person who manufactures an appliance on a non-professional basis and uses it exclusively for his own purposes.”.
A hobbyist making a gas burner entirely on a non-professional basis and using it exclusively for personal model engineering is entirely excluded from the definition of a “manufacturer” for legal and commercial compliance.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Permit me please, to provide this reference, to support Bill Phinn’s assertion:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2016/426/body

MichaelG.

 

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Though Robert seems to be linking to the UK version of 2016/426 which does not have the same clause 35

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/426/oj/eng

[Bill Phinn]

On Bill Phinn Said:

Under Article 1(35) of Regulation (EU) 2016/426 (which the UK legislation enforces), the law explicitly states that the regulation does not apply to “any natural person who manufactures an appliance on a non-professional basis and uses it exclusively for his own purposes.”.
A hobbyist making a gas burner entirely on a non-professional basis and using it exclusively for personal model engineering is entirely excluded from the definition of a “manufacturer” for legal and commercial compliance.

Hi Bill,
There is no Article 1 (35) for 2016/426. either for the UK or European versions.
I think you are referring to the introductory / adoption text at the beginning of the EU version. It is useful to note the full text:

” (35) This Regulation should not apply to any natural person who manufactures an appliance on a non-professional basis and uses it exclusively for his own purposes.”
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/426/oj/eng

Note the use of the would “should” this means it is not binding. I don’t know why this statement is in there but it is directly at odds with Article 2 (17) of the same document:

” (17) ‘manufacturer’ means any natural or legal person who manufactures an appliance or a fitting or who has an appliance or a fitting designed or manufactured, and markets that appliance or fitting under his name or trademark or uses the appliance for his own purposes;”

And Article 7 (1):
“1. When placing their appliances or fittings on the market or when using the appliances for their own purposes, manufacturers shall ensure that they have been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements set out in Annex I.”

It would be finally down to the courts (in the EU) to decide but my training on this sort of thing is that a “shall” overrides a “should” and the provisions of legislation take precedence over any explanatory text. The fact that the “own purposes” explicit inclusions in articles 1 and 7 when the equivalent clauses in similar regulations don’t include this.

The “exemption” does not apply in the UK as our regulation does not have the introductory text.

EDIT: And UK legislation no longer enforces ANY EU regulation. No further discussion on this, it’s getting into politics.

Robert.

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Robert

I gladly defer to your expertise in these matters, but I remain bewildered:

This screenshot is from the U.K government web-page

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2016/426/introduction?view=extent

.

.

So what hope is there of “The man on the Clapham Omnibus” making the correct assessment of of reasonableness if/when a Model Engineer is prosecuted ?

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

For anyone unfamiliar with the concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_on_the_Clapham_omnibus

MichaelG.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Hi Michael,

Your link(1) is to the introductory text from the EU. Note it says EU at the top and has no amendments. The body(2) is what matters especially since we left the EU. It says UK at the top and has amendments.

The man on the omnibus would not be expected to have read the legislation. The question to him would be “Was it reasonable for a unqualified person to make a gas appliance that caused a leak and explosion that killed his neighbour?”. Note the past tense as the question is only asked if it comes to court.

(1) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2016/426/introduction?view=extent
(2) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2016/426/body

Robert.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

To take a step back, the regulations do not appear to me to say that a man in a shed cannot make his own gas appliance, they say that anyone (including the man in a shed) making appliances (with some exceptions) has to abide by the requirements of Annex 1. These are actually not that onerous (they might be a bit tedious), and I don’t see any requirement for third party approval, although I haven’t read the full document.

Dons steel helmet and awaits incoming shell fire.

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

To take a step back, the regulations do not appear to me to say that a man in a shed cannot make his own gas appliance, they say that anyone (including the man in a shed) making appliances (with some exceptions) has to abide by the requirements of Annex 1. These are actually not that onerous (they might be a bit tedious), and I don’t see any requirement for third party approval, although I haven’t read the full document.

Dons steel helmet and awaits incoming shell fire.

You are quite correct. Thanks for pointing this out.

The problem with the gas requirements is that an independent assessment  / test has to be carried out by an Approved Body  (Notified Body in EU) as part of conforming. See Annex III. You cannot “self certify”  like you can with many other directives.
This is a time consuming and expensive exercise.

Robert.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

So what we need is either

1. A derogation allowing club boiler inspectors to act as nominated body for burners etc up to some small output, not connected to mains gas,  maximum gas reserve of say 500mL or
2. Burn paraffin or diesel

I’m not holding my breath on the first. The second only requires an air pump (bicycld pump?) and a vapouriser extra to a gas burner,  many designs in ME over the years. I wouldn’t suggest petrol, too volatile.

[Author]

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