Thank you for taking the time Ketan ( I understand you run Arc right? ), and not trying to just get a sale it means a lot…
I've added that book to my cart on Arc and will pick it up at the same time, in all honesty at this point I'm just waiting to see if there are any Black friday deals.
I do think that the sieg 2.7 is for me though I kind of understand the basics of weight and rigidity whilst I'm posting now and asking questions this purchase of a mill has been on my wishlist for about 1.5 years now and I think I'm ready to take the plunge finally!
thanks again
Chris
Posted by Ketan Swali on 20/11/2021 13:52:21:
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!
I'm going to go for the Sieg 2.7 then! this will quit me just fine for now!!! Thank you SO SO SO much for this setup.
If doing a gear of this size on the SX2.7 I think I would not use a single central arbour but instead bolt the blank to the rotary table with some suitable length spacers in a similar way to Andrew's photo as it will be a lot more rigid and no risk of the blank rotating on the arbour
Hello Christropher,
Before you get too carried away, I would strongly suggest you buy and read link: Milling for Beginners written by Jason Ballamy. It is written in plain English. It is based on the SX2.7 mill. It addresses issues on how to use small mills in general, as well as helps you understand limitations.
With regards to rigidity, Andrew is fortunate to have a good old second hand industrial machine, with horizontal attachment to cut gear teeth easily in one pass. To put it into context, the machine on which he is cutting the gear probably weighs around four times or more than an SX2.7 vertical mill. As Andrew stated, gear cutting on vertical mill can be problematic. Even if you tried to bolt the blank onto the rotary table in a similar way to Andrews suggestion, it would be wrong to think that this is the only rigidity issue, and that you will get the same results as Andrew, because to start with the physical weight of the SX2.7 is much lighter than Andrews.
Andrews approach is correct for the type of machine he has. For the SX2.7, Jasons approach is correct, but it is combined with knowledge/experience of how to use a small light weight small mill. You also need to consider what material you are cutting, along with speed, feed and depth of cut more appropriate to any machine you ultimately decide to buy. How things happen on one machine will be different from how they will work on another model of a machine.
Ketan at ARC
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!
I'm going to go for the Sieg 2.7 then! this will quit me just fine for now!!! Thank you SO SO SO much for this setup.
If doing a gear of this size on the SX2.7 I think I would not use a single central arbour but instead bolt the blank to the rotary table with some suitable length spacers in a similar way to Andrew's photo as it will be a lot more rigid and no risk of the blank rotating on the arbour
Hello Christropher,
Before you get too carried away, I would strongly suggest you buy and read link: Milling for Beginners written by Jason Ballamy. It is written in plain English. It is based on the SX2.7 mill. It addresses issues on how to use small mills in general, as well as helps you understand limitations.
With regards to rigidity, Andrew is fortunate to have a good old second hand industrial machine, with horizontal attachment to cut gear teeth easily in one pass. To put it into context, the machine on which he is cutting the gear probably weighs around four times or more than an SX2.7 vertical mill. As Andrew stated, gear cutting on vertical mill can be problematic. Even if you tried to bolt the blank onto the rotary table in a similar way to Andrews suggestion, it would be wrong to think that this is the only rigidity issue, and that you will get the same results as Andrew, because to start with the physical weight of the SX2.7 is much lighter than Andrews.
Andrews approach is correct for the type of machine he has. For the SX2.7, Jasons approach is correct, but it is combined with knowledge/experience of how to use a small light weight small mill. You also need to consider what material you are cutting, along with speed, feed and depth of cut more appropriate to any machine you ultimately decide to buy. How things happen on one machine will be different from how they will work on another model of a machine.
Ketan at ARC
You should be able to makle a saving on postage if you order any additional items at the same time as they will put them in the crate that the mill comes in which is a set pallet rate delivery, you can squeeze a lot into those crates![]()
I did but my DTI from ARC, something like this will do for most jobs mounted on this mag base
I use a die-holder in the tailstock, something like this.
Thor
thank you for the detailed post @howard, I think I have a decent understanding now after much reading the last couple of days about this and the help here!
ref this:
You will need your Digital Calliper, and / or at least one Micrometer,; and a DTI and magnetic base.
do you have any recommendations on which of these items to purchase? at the moment I think I'm going in on a 2.7 Sieg from https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines/SIEG-SX27-Mill/SIEG-SX27-HiTorque-Mill I assume they have these measuring tools I need do you recommend them?
Chris
The ArcEuroTrade set is good value, maybe you could resell what you don't use to reclaim some pennies?
Hey Everyone,
thank you so so much for the responses I'll see if I can answer them all below:
what I meant was gear cutting
Idealy using a diving head and a rotary table.
——-
Posted by JasonB on 18/11/2021 07:14:45:
I suspect you mean gear cutting as to do hobbing properly you really need a gear hobber, it can be approximated with home made tools but you would also need a lathe to do that.
An idea of the size (diameter and tooth size) of the gears as well as what material you want to make them from would give members a better idea of what machine to suggest.
You will almost certainly need some form or rotary table or dividing head to increment the blank around 1 tooth at a time so allow 250-300 euro for that. And easily the same again for some other basic tooling to go with the mill such as an arbor to hold the gear cutter, the cutters themselves, measuring tools to set the job up, etc.
The 1500 euros was for the MILL only I did kind of realise that the tooling and rotary table would be additional on top of that
.
With regards to size, they will be for small mechanical follies ( 5-10cm radius more or less) I'll be making to pass the time mainly.
—–
Welcome to the forum.
My recommendation is to look at this the other way around. If you haven't already done so, first get a copy of the Workshop Practice series book ' Gears and gear cutting '. It will cost less than a tenner from on line sources and will tell you what type of kit you need and how to use it. This may save you making an expensive mistake and buying equipment that is not fit for purpose.
Are you intending to make gears for a specific purpose?
Edited By Mike Hurley on 18/11/2021 10:16:49
I've allready got that book and had a read through I'm kind of theoretically aware of the gear making process I'm aware I need at least a mini mill of some time ( or a second hand full sizes mill, if I could fit it in the office…) My question was more around which one of the MANY mini mills should I purchase? are there any things I should be looking out for? Are some better than others? I've kind of realised that MOST appear to be "sieg" chinese mill's except Warco from what I can see.. but there are SO many different permutations… Some come with DRO ( do I NEED this?), some with auto feed vs manual feed? I'm just a bit lost in all honesty…
———-
Welcome!
If you are going in for gear manufacture, do buy Ivan law's book on "Gears and Gear Cutting" No.17 in the "Workshop Practice Series", as Mike Hurley has already recommended.
You will find it a great help. Study it well before starting to cut metal.
If need be make your mistakes on some trial pieces, to gain experience, before embarking on the final product,
It may help to bear in mind that gear cutters are numbered in the reverse order between Imperial (DP ) gears and Metric (Module ) gears.
You are also going to need a Dividing Head or Rotary Table, (With Tailstock ) and a 4 jaw chuck to hold the mandrels on which the gear blank will be mounted for machining.., The mini lathe will come into its own to make the mandrels on which to mount the gear blank
I prefer using Division Plates on a Rotary Table, to calculating the angular divisions and setting them on the vernier scale.
Since gear cutting involves a heavy cut, although at a very slow feed rate, you will need the Tailstock to support the mandrel on which the gear blank is mounted.
This also implies that the milling machine needs to be fairly substantial and rigid, if your gears are going to be made from steel. You can do small work on a large machine, but not so easily the other way round.
A larger, heavy machine will be more rigid, so an aid to quality, so buy a little larger than you initially anticipate
New machines will be Metric, so you will need a calculator to make the settings for Imperial gears…
If you do not have it already, you will need measuring equipment to measure diameters, and to ensure that the work is held concentric in the chuck.
Howard
thanks for this info Howard!!!! with regards to
If you do not have it already, you will need measuring equipment to measure diameters, and to ensure that the work is held concentric in the chuck.
Do you have any recommendations on what I need? I assume a micrometer, a dial indicator of some type anything else to start off?
——–
1/2
Edited By Christopher Churchill on 18/11/2021 18:59:09
Hey there,
I'm based in EIRE and am in the market for a milling machine, I've never owned or operated a milling machine before. I have a very small woodworking shop (thickness planer, cnc router miter saw wood lathe band sae and a TON of hand tools which is where most of my work is done) and a Chinese mini lathe ( barely used because it sucks…).
I'm looking into getting into gear hobbing ( unsure of the correct term here) and wanted to buy a mill for the shop I've looked at the following shops for now:
[https://www.amadeal.co.uk/](https://www.amadeal.co.uk/)
[https://www.warco.co.uk/](https://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machines/303312-wm-14-milling-machine-dro.html)
[https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines](https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines)
and
[https://www.axminstertools.com/ie/machinery/milling-machines](https://www.axminstertools.com/ie/machinery/milling-machines).
​
So my question is WHICH ONE do I buy…
Max budget is around 1,500 Euros MAX MAX…
You can buy a 8 x 8 x 100 HSS toolbit from Arc Euro for £2.96 each, £7.55 for 3 off, and £14..20 for 6 off, plus shipping
Prices include VAT
At those prices, it is worth learning how to grind a tool, to whatever form you want.
Incidentally, the ones shown in the picture earlier, although described as "Form Tool", are not really.
Something got lost in translation.
A Form tool would leave it's shape (Form ) in the work, in the way in which a screwcutting, radius, chamfer, or a parting tool does.
A knife tool GENERATES a cylindrical surface as a result of the combined rotary motion of the work, and the linear motion of the tool, or a flat surface by the same process when facing.
Turning a convex centre or a.concave, is, again, a generating process.
Round bar starts as a cylinder, but hexagon or square bar does not, before anyone says it!
Howard
I would say the one in your link is a Left Hand, compare with any similar insert holder and they will be L/H
Other suppliers have the names the right way round
The new motor arrived this morning (Arc Euro, prompt as usual). Resistance checks show 15 ohms all round, indicating that my diagnosis of the old motor was correct. I will go into the workshop shortly and fit the new motor and will hopefully be up and running later today.
Regarding the title of this post, it was done in jest, and was in no way intended to be disparaging about this type of machine. indeed, were it not for these mini-lathes, there is no way I could have started this hobby in the first place. My lathe was a spur of the moment purchase. I was in Machine Mart for something else, when I saw it offered at a reduced price as an ex-display model. I had been contemplating buying a small lathe for some time, as retirement was approaching and therefore jumped in and bought it. At the time I could lift it myself but after 13 years I imagine I would struggle now.
I have to admire the brave people who use ex-industrial machinery. I'm afraid there is no way I could contemplate using low loaders, Hiabs or even engine cranes to move my hobby equipment around. I have enjoyed the use of this lathe for 13 years and the cost of the new motor works out at less than £10 /year which I think is a bargain. I will report back when up and running (Hopefully, later today)
Anthony.
Edited By Anthony Knights on 17/11/2021 10:57:23
I would like to urge all to remain vigilant about Covid and not let protection measures slip, it is all to easy to think that because of vaccination that it is conquered. For a few days now we haven’t had any post deliveries, neither has anyone in our close; today our daughter came round, she also lives in our village, she said do we know why there have been no post delivered, she proceeded to say that the postal sorting office in the village has had cases of Covid amongst the Posties so the sorting office is temporarily closed while they all recover. Ever since the start of Covid in our house any incoming letters or parcels are religiously wiped over with germ busting wipes before opening; it might seem a bit over the top to some but wife is in poor health with bad Asthma so we need to take measures to protect everyone in the house. In the light of the outbreak of virus in the sorting office it seems we were right to carry out protective measures, although government information had previously said there were no known cases of transmission by letters or parcels but then how many of us believe assurances given by government departments. We need to be aware that it is still a problem which appears now to be getting more problematic, Europe is again in the grip of a surge and we usually follow them albeit two to three weeks after. Dave W
Working in the workshop today, on myCL300 lathe, turning down a 200mm length of 30mm bar and not working the machine particularly hard, when I heard the dreaded "Phut" of a fuse blowing and the lathe stopped. Checked the fuse and it was black. Tried another fuse without much hope, but the speed LED's lit up showing there was power. gently started tuning the speed control and the chuck started turning and the stopped as the new fuse blew.
I have since opened the control box and having disconnected the motor, tried the lamp test, which worked fine, brightening and dimming as I rotated the speed control. Tried the motor on a 12volt battery and it does turn, but doesn't sound right to me, so I am inclined to think it is what's at fault. I will remove it tomorrow and give it a proper check.
A new motor from Arc Euro is £125.88 but I am considering getting an early Christmas present by buying a motor, inverter and control box from Newton Tesla. That will set me back about £340 but hopefully, no more drive problems.
Any helpful comments or advice will be appreciated. Thank you in advance .
Anthony
Arc EuroTrade offer 10 x 10 x 100 toolbits in HSS-Co5.
Reference is 080-060-40110 Catalogue 11 list at £5.09 ea + p&p,,but prices may well have increased since the catalogue was printed.
Don't know the provenance, but would have no qualms whatsoever about dealing with Ketan.
HTH
Howard
Richard – Of course there were no thermometers 40Ma – nor humans either. They calculate the temperatures from the lingering physical and chemical effects preserved in sediments, ocean-floor cores, cave deposits, fossils (as Mr.C. says) etc. And with due allowance for measurement and arithmetical tolerances.
'
Mr. C. – A good point, about land areas sinking, though generally the rate of subsidence is a lot lower than the rate of water rise.
As SE England sinks, NW Scotland rises – more specifically it is probably from the NW European continental plate we occupy, still very slightly rebounding from having depressed by ice-sheet load in the last glaciation.
Southern England was not glaciated, but shivered in Arctic Tundra conditions; and effectively the NW corner of the plate was loaded as a cantilever, bending it down into the soft Mantle. The ice-sheet's thaw and consequent unloading on Scandinavia produced earthquakes even in historical times, but this "isostatic rebound" is now considered ended in that region.
Load? Just 1 square km of ice-cover a modest 1km thick weighs about 9 X 10^8 t.
Malthus' calculations were probably not wrong as such, for his time, but he had to rely on the evidence and statistics available then. The overall world-wide population is still rising, irrespective of regional variations. Not only that but many millions of people lead very deprived lives and naturally want the necessities we too easily take for granted, so the overall drain of resources is increasing.
'
Bazyle – How did you, or whowever did, forecast those famines? Quoting almost-definite years is not a very safe way to predict anything, but we won't make ourselves extinct. By the natural way of things our species has about another 2-3m years to go (by the mean life-span of a mammalian species), but of course we have it in "our" power to reduce that considerably.
However, I don't think we will drive ourselves into extinction as you seem to imply, even with massive death-rates through famine, drought and disease – and wars. Plenty will survive, and ironically it might be the least-"developed" societies in the most remote regions who have the best chances of survival.
At or about this time of year my daughter asks her Mum what her Dad would like her to buy him for Christmas. Mum passes the message to me and I reach out for the Arc Euro or Tracey Tools catalogues for a little browse to find something that I would not normally buy for myself. Last year I found in the Arc catalogue "Milling for Beginners" by Jason Ballamy. I asked myself, "Am I a beginner?" I have owned a small mill for over 12 years but whilst I get by I cannot say that I have truly mastered its use. I decide to ask for this book. The book duly arrived and I found it to be a good quality production, nice paper, well laid out text and loads of excellent photographs of tooling and procedures. The content is an easy read and can be read as a whole from beginning to end or just used as a reference for specific topics. Whilst I discovered that I have not been making too many major errors I did pick up loads of useful tips and ways to tackle tricky jobs. In all 16 Chapters packed with useful information. (No connection to author). Mick.
Ketan can you say anything about when you'll enable/join IOSS? For smaller orders the VAT handeling fees are really annoying – or more correctly a showstopper.
Best regards,
Kenneth
Hi Kenneth,
Apologies for the delay in response. For some reason I failed to get a notification email for this thread. I have re-marked it to send me a notification if there is an update in the future.
We have joined the IOSS system and tested it out manually. We found that there are fun and games involved depending on interpretation of rules by the customs of different EU states. To standardise the process to make things easier is taking time, as we are having to get the couriers and their counterparts/customs to do things correctly.
As a temporary measure, on a case by case basis, if you want ARC to consider your order through the IOSS process, or duty tax paid(DTP/DDP) process for orders valued over Euros 150, take a snapshot of your order before checkout and email it to ARC. In subject line state FAO Ian – regarding IOSS. Please state your full name, address, telephone contact details in your email. Ian will then get back to you with IOSS compliant proforma for your consideration. If workable, he will guide you through the payment process. This idea is a temporary suggestion, for consideration on a case by case basis, BEFORE any order is finalised. We are unable to consider this idea once an order is placed.
The IOSS/DTP/DDP options are only available to retail customers, and not to B2B EU VAT registered businesses,/individuals who are unable to use the IOSS/DTP/DDP to claim back their VAT.
Over the past few months I have been working with our website developers to make the whole process automated. As our website links into our order processing/accounts software, making the courier API to integrate with our site and our site to integrate the IOSS back office process correctly with our accounting software and reporting VAT collected monthly for each of the 27 states in the EU to a specific IOSS tax authority, is a lovely long winded process.
The test site to test out the process for IOSS and DTP is hoped to be ready during next week. It is overdue by about a month due to various complications. So the next stage will be to test and try to iron out the bugs, before going live. If all goes to plan, it is hoped that the new site will go live in about a month, or latest by early next year.
Ketan at ARC
It really depends on what quality you want, it ranges from cheap and nasty far east products to high end stuff like Bison and others.
If it were me, I would buy a 4" Chinese chuck and a matching backplate from Arc Eurotrade. I purchased such a chuck about a year ago and was amazed at how good the quality was, forgetting the modest price. Arc do backplates but you will need to turn the register to size and drill the mounting holes. Not a difficult task and good learning too.
You may be able to buy a chuck with a backplate attached and ready to go, from the" New" Myford. If so it will probably be more expensive than going the Arc route and the chuck will be hard pressed to beat the Arc offering.
Andrew.
I think Ketan is one of a kind. Many a time I have wished Arc Euro was in a local industrial area rather than the other side of the world.
Hi Ketan,
I contacted Ausee (primarily because the nz based dealer website looks like a scam, it’s very poorly designed and does not look very legitimate, I could of course be totally wrong but nevertheless I went with Ausee)
So visually the control board on the link you posted looks identical to mine – but so does the one on the Ausee site
I found the serial number on the top of the column, it’s 30901
The guy from Ausee said it could be a 2003 or 2013 but that’s all he could tell me
I found a sticker on control board that says
”Z1000 1/230v SN:W2013120076”
Would that perhaps mean it’s a 2013?
Any light you could shed on identifying what year mine would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Hi Nathan,
In SIEG numbering system, serial number 30901 can mean it could be 2003 or 2013, but in your case it means 2013, because SX3 model was born much later than 2003.
If you re-look on this page link, and combine it with the 'Z1000 1/230v SN:W2013120076' sticker, this would suggest that you have the old board. The old board has a Relay on the board. The new board does not have a Relay on the board.
So, you need to re-look at your board, take a picture and decide / re-confirm if it looks identical to old board or new board, i.e. old with relay or new without relay, and then decide what you want to do.
Hope above information helps.
Ketan at ARC.
Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, I have contacted the closest distributor (in another country still) and am waiting to hear back from them, they have every electrical part in stock, just need to figure out which part I need
Nathan,
I am a little confused.
You state that you contacted the closest distributor in another country.
What ever you decide to do, take plenty of pictures before/during the dismantling/change over process, or ideally get a competent professional to carry out the work. As these are electrical components, they will not carry guarantee or warranty. There is no wiring diagram, and no supplier will be able to hold your hand or assist you through the installation process. There is next to zero knowledge or assistance on the Internet/forum to guide you through the process.
If you buy the wrong things without looking at the pictures of the boards/components, or without clear understanding, then chances of fizz, crackle, pop will be high. If things go wrong, this thread will then turn into a long discussion between you and others to figure out what went wrong,… a kind of situation with 'the blind leading the blind'…, especially as no one really knows which version of the SX3 you have… and quite frankly, with the greatest of respect… I honestly doubt that anyone on this forum is realistically qualified to be able to offer remote support or comment on the electrical assembly of the SX3…. and it is nothing to do with the machine being 'Made in China'… and the components are not cheap!![]()
Ketan at ARC
Hi Ketan,
I contacted Ausee (primarily because the nz based dealer website looks like a scam, it’s very poorly designed and does not look very legitimate, I could of course be totally wrong but nevertheless I went with Ausee)
So visually the control board on the link you posted looks identical to mine – but so does the one on the Ausee site
I found the serial number on the top of the column, it’s 30901
The guy from Ausee said it could be a 2003 or 2013 but that’s all he could tell me
I found a sticker on control board that says
”Z1000 1/230v SN:W2013120076”
Would that perhaps mean it’s a 2013?
Any light you could shed on identifying what year mine would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
I’m with Clive on the timescale before ‘outing’ if I did a lot of drilling with a pillar drill. Hence, I would not even consider one.
I have a couple of Arceuro type ll precision vises which could be used if I was wanting to turn a workpiece by 90 degrees. But my pillar drill is carp and would not benefit from ‘precision’ in any sense of the word.
I use a drill press for rough and ready drilling, not particularly precise work. The table on mine is rubbish, for a start. The quill is rubbish as a second consideration. Precision work falls to the Centec, mainly (unless small items which will fit on the Raglan).
I’ve had a couple of these types (but not three-way devices) of vise over the years and have never found them any better than a good clamp, or mole grip, in most situations.
I like my kit to be fit for what it was bought for. I find most things that are ‘multi-purpose’ fail, in one way or another, to live up to the supplier’s claims.
There should be a locking lever (well, a bolt with a sprung lever on it) for each axis; I've looked on the Arc website and it shows it in the pictures. I don't have quite the same model but its present on mine (SX2.7L). They can be easily snapped if you are not careful (ask how I know…) so if the machine is second hand someone may have replaced them with bolts.
In the picture in the above link you can see the locking levers on the front and the right hand side, in the case of the front one it's directly in line with the feed handle.
Like Rex, I bypassed the micro switch since the chuck guard interfere with the work when turning flywheels or other large diameter work. As long as the guard doesn't interfere with the work I use the guard and an additional shield similar to this.
Thor
Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, I have contacted the closest distributor (in another country still) and am waiting to hear back from them, they have every electrical part in stock, just need to figure out which part I need
Nathan,
I am a little confused.
You state that you contacted the closest distributor in another country.
What ever you decide to do, take plenty of pictures before/during the dismantling/change over process, or ideally get a competent professional to carry out the work. As these are electrical components, they will not carry guarantee or warranty. There is no wiring diagram, and no supplier will be able to hold your hand or assist you through the installation process. There is next to zero knowledge or assistance on the Internet/forum to guide you through the process.
If you buy the wrong things without looking at the pictures of the boards/components, or without clear understanding, then chances of fizz, crackle, pop will be high. If things go wrong, this thread will then turn into a long discussion between you and others to figure out what went wrong,… a kind of situation with 'the blind leading the blind'…, especially as no one really knows which version of the SX3 you have… and quite frankly, with the greatest of respect… I honestly doubt that anyone on this forum is realistically qualified to be able to offer remote support or comment on the electrical assembly of the SX3…. and it is nothing to do with the machine being 'Made in China'… and the components are not cheap!![]()
Ketan at ARC
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