Tool post for Myford ML10 lathe

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I am now using 1/2" cutters. No steel strips & no packings at all. Just adjust the screw & tighten. With enough tool posts, the only time you need to re-adjust is if you fit a fresh cutter.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Chronos, Warco and RDG tools sell a myford 7 toolpost that will probably fit, its also known as a t37 toolpost.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

You need to do some home work. There is a solution for your lathe.

Steve.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Jeremy,

I'm a great believer in making things for myself. I have a Myford and have got rid of my Dickson tool holder, an expensive waste for a hobbyist, great for production where time is money.

This is my Norman patent tool holder. Its almost entirely a turning job except for the milled 1/2" tool slot (13 mm ). Mine stays true to the original design. However Myford used to supply this type of tool post and holder on the older ML3 & 4 lathes. I also made one for the rear of the cross slide that is primarily used for parting and interchangeable with the front one.

A view from the other side. The silver screw is the hight adjustment ! No shims needed.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Ironically i took the standard fiddly Norman toolpost off my M type and made my own ML7 style 4-way toolpost and find it much better to use. Different strokes etc. But agree i dont feel the need for a Dickson etc for hobby use. The 4-way holds left and right hand tools permanently for 75 per cent of work and specials are mounted in the other 2 slots as needed.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Hopper,

Thankyou for your comments.

I originally had the Myford supplied 4 way toolpost, and got fed up with having to shim up every time I sharpened a tool. The other thing that I didn't like was how easy it was to catch and cut yourself on the other tools in the holder. I've ended up one time having my thumb stitched up in ER having leant forward and caught the sharp end of one.

So after listening to all the advice, I bought a Dickson QCTP ! Sure it was much better than shimming all the time, but by the time I'd bought a couple of holders and looked at the cost, and finding out about the Norman Patent one, I decided to build one and try it. Apart from the time I spent making it, it cost me less than £5 in materials, plus one or two bits from the scrap box and some cap screws which I had already.

I don't find it any more difficult or awkward than using a QCTP ! It's also vastly cheaper and the satisfaction from making it is priceless ! In addition you get to learn a lot about the machine, its capabilities and your own.

[egaParticipant @ega]

John Baron:

Am I right in thinking that, strictly speaking, the Norman patent envisaged a square section hole rather than an open slot?

I used one like yours for some years – cheap and easy to make and very versatile. I have seen a suggestion that the height adjustment screw should be as near as possible to the tool tip so as to prevent or limit dipping.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Ega,

Yes that is correct. I used to have a copy of the original 1880's patent but I can no longer find it, either in my backups or on line. I believe that "Lathes UK" have some pictures and other info on it though.

All the subsequent designs that I have seen on the net, use a slit that is compressed by a bolt to clamp the holder to the post, and also use an open slot for the tool ! This slit clamping method only produces a two point grip on the post, and relies on the metal being able to be deformed when the bolt is tightened, where as the split clamp has a three point grip and reduces any tendency for the tool holder to rock.

Rolls Royce used the Norman toolpost on the lathes in their development workshops, I believe before Myford did. Its a lot more rigid than other toolposts I've used, due to the large diameter post that its mounted on.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Just to correct two earlier posts as I like to point out that it is ok to have the cutting edge above centre provided you haven't forgotten to grind any front clearance, which at 10 degrees for a beginner should give you masses of leeway.
The South Bend / Boxford book "Know your lathe" actually recommends setting the tool above centre. The reason, not given in the book, is that it produces a component of force outwards that takes up the backlash in the cross-slide screw which helps reduce chatter.

Edited By Bazyle on 08/02/2020 14:26:58

[egaParticipant @ega]

John Baron:

Good point about the split clamp (cotter). In fact, mine was the simpler type to a Len Mason design in ME. The reduced centre height of the ML10 might be an issue for this type of toolpost since the "shelf" on which the tool sits needs to be thick enough to resist deflection.

I later made a four-way indexing toolpost to the GHT design and have sometimes wondered whether he would have become a QCTP convert.

[Jeremy Smith 2Participant @jeremysmith2]

Posted by Martin of Wick on 07/02/2020 20:38:44:

| Are there any tool post holders on amazon which will fit the ml10 without mods?

Nope! the ML10 is a frustratingly awkward beast.

Until you know exactly what you want for your particular jobs, get either some 10mm HSS or some cheap carbide tool holders of the ccxx and or dcxx type with a supply of tips.

Purchase from a metal factor some ally strip of same widths as tools, but in suitable thickness to bring the tools up to approx. centre line.

Purchase a bunch of cheapo feeler gauges, clamp and saw in half to give you some ultra fine shimming.

Make up your tools to just below centre height with thicker shimming when clamped using the simple tool clamp and araldite or super glue the shims to the base of the cutting tool, then find a fine shim from the feeler gauge to bring to exact height (by facing a bar to leave no pip). This will take you an evening to do a few tools, but they will then always be ready for use using the basic clamping system (which is actually quite versatile).

Then your next job will be to make whatever toolpost you like – a Norman patent would be a good first project or make a version of a tangential tool cutter that you can set on height and can do most of your cutting.

Don't be overwhelmed, don't sweat the small stuff, just plough right in and just treat it as a fantastic learning experience.

thank you for the info! What is ally strip?

Also, what do you mean when you say facing a bar to leave no pip?

Is there something I can read regarding setting up the cebtering with shims? I am still a litttle confused on how to set it up!

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I don't mean to be rude but you seem to be very new to machining? If so I would suggest searching youtube for videos for beginners. I've linked to an old but excellent series below produced by MIT. If you are anything like me, I learn better from watching than reading. Engineering can seem a little daunting at first but you will soon pick up the basics.

MIT Engineering Video Series

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

'ally strip' = thin bits of aluminium
don't know about purchasing it from metal factors (suppliers) though.
Normally just cut from drinks cans, scavenged from stuff you took apart so can be steel, aluminium, brass and hard plastic. I use credit cards, blister wrap plastic, bits of shop signs blown down in the gales, printed circuit board. It doesn't matter if there are a few holes in them either, nor needing to be exact size.

Centre pip. – if the tool is not dead on centre it cannot cut the very middle of the end of the thing being turned.
Put a bit of round material in the chuck say half inch give or take 50% and half an inch sticking out. Position the tool just off the end and move it in to just touch the end, that is the end of the end not the side of the end. Move it clear using the cross-slide and advance it a few thousandths using the top slide so it will cut as you move it in using the cross slide. It probably won't be cutting all the end, depending on how square you sawed it off. This is called facing or facing off.
Move it clear with the cross-slide, advance a few thou with the top slide and face off again. Repeat until you are cutting the whole face. At some point in this process you will notice that right in the middle the tool isn't high enough to reach leaving a small 'pip' or you are too high and sort of scrunch off the middle. If you are bothered adjust shims and repeat test to get zero pip.

If you are going to drill the end it won't matter if there is a pip anyway but actually it is better to leave the middle tenth of an inch untouched rather than leave a small pip as a drill is more likely to be pushed off by a small pip that just having to start on a rough sawn surface.

[Jeremy Smith 2Participant @jeremysmith2]

I’m new to the machining aspect. I build custom cars for a living – there is a tremendous amount of engineering in my career, but I have yet to implement the machining aspect. I’m excited I have acquired this lathe, and can’t wait to get started.

I like the simplicity of the norman tool holder. Do you have any exact dimensions for it?

Edited By Jeremy Smith 2 on 08/02/2020 21:33:32

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Once you get up & running. You will be able to make a lot of the parts you buy at the moment. Shiny dump valves & nice stainless & alloy under bonnet fittings. You will wonder how you ever managed without it.

Steve.

[Jeremy Smith 2Participant @jeremysmith2]

I can use the machine as a milling device too, correct? What parts will allow for that kind of operation of the lathr.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

To mill small jobs you can use a Myford vertical slide bolted on in place of the topslide, with a small Myford vice to hold small jobs. Bigger jobs can be clamped straight to the vertical slide. You hold the milling cutter in the three jaw chuck. It's very much a compromise situation but ok for small occasional work.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Before you start using the vertical slide for milling on the M10 find some way of clamping the saddle as it does not have a saddle clamp.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Jeremy, let us know where in the world you are. (County/nearest big town) There may be someone locally willing to help get you started.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Jeremy, Guys,

Whilst I've done some very very light milling using the lathe, I cannot recommend it, particularly on an ML10 !

I've a virtually unused S7 vertical slide sat in a cupboard doing nothing.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I do not regard hss tooling as old fashioned,I use hss,brazed on carbide,insert cardide,and I have some synthetic diamond ,superb for flycutting ali cylinder heads.And I kept up with the latest methods,tooling,and machine tools until I retired as a production/procurement engineer. In my training I started on plain lathes (Lorch),a Boxford,A 8 in Willson and a Ward 2A capstan, One of my memories was that four way toolposts were a pain in the backside,all the operators had aquired a tin full of shim,at least the stores had supply of shim,plus a guillotine to chop up thicker material,there were a few carbide brazed tools for the willson,none for the small lathes and capstan.At home I had an EW,A myford 7 came along ten years later and the last thing I wanted was a fourway toolpost,and made a couple of Drummond type tool holders similar to a Norman,these transferred to my S7,and lasted for 25 years,until I bought a Dickson type toolholder set .and then toolchanging and setting was so much easier and it saved time which became important as I aquired some outside work,I already had a genuine Dickson toolholder son my Colchesters,Now not many lathes for our hobby new or used are better than a Boxford and cannot really take advantage of modern carbide,and hss in many respects is better ,and cheaper than inserts .I think the replaceable tip has come in as the modern generation it appears cannot manage to use a grinding wheel and be able to grind a lathe tool or drill bit.Brought about by a least two generations who have never had any workshop training at school or college. Hss has really improved since my training I have some with colbalt,which are really good ,far better than the older Eclipse toolbits,though they are harder to grind,Regarding quenching Hss when grinding,for a start do NOT grind them until they get to red heat,grind and dumk them in water frequently,avoid taking to where it goes blue,brown is ok, Many text books state do not quench as it causes cracking in 60 years I have never had a tool crack,many of these authors have taken info from earlier books those earlier books were written in the same way ,ie what I have read rather than from actual experience, the very earliest Hss in around pre WW 1 days may have cracked and the myth carried on. Grinding wheels should be selected for hss use,if they wear away quickly then the grit bond is too soft,of course with correct wheel as the grit glazes or some grooving occurrs then the wheel should be dressed, a good wheel for hss should NEVER be used for any other material ie soft steel ,ali or brass , and the larger the wheel the better I use 8 inch wheels ,this reduces the hollow ground effect and makes the cutting edge stronger.If you have a sturdy industrial lathe with a good speed range and a large motor then carbide tips have their advantages,high metal removal rate ,built in chip breakers,less tool wear with tough material eg high no en steels and stainless.though say on a long shaft where I have spent a lot of time machining various diameters,if say two short journals are required for a precise bearing fit with a few tenths tolerance then i would finish turn these with a high speed tool. I previously mentioned Dickson tooling,I have had this type of tooling on several lathes,certainly speeds up tool seting and tool changing and works well on general purpose work but when used for heavy cuts and some parting off, the tool holders are nowhere near as rigid as a four way tool post and can be seen to deflect despite putting a length of tube on the wrench ( we all loose some strength its called aging)

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by John Baron on 08/02/2020 08:27:00:

Hi Jeremy,

I'm a great believer in making things for myself. I have a Myford and have got rid of my Dickson tool holder, an expensive waste for a hobbyist, great for production where time is money.

It's interesting you should say that, as I think the Dickson clone QCTP is the best value for money I've spent on the lathe and mill combined. So much so, that I kept it for the bigger machine that replaced the mini-lathe I bought it for.

The most important thing for a QCTP is to have enough holders to keep ALL of the tools you might use ready to drop onto it; when even a simple part uses 3 tools(turn and face, break edges, part off) it very quickly pays for itself.

How is inefficient use of time less important for a hobbiest than in production, as the hobby(whatever the tools are used for) is making parts not pretty piles of swarf?

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Agree completely with Nicholas Wheeler 1. I have recently fitted the wedge type holder. You can only have one tool at a time in it. But I am trying to get into the habit of, removing the tool after each op done. No cut arms that way. Move lever , lift tool, job done.

Steve.

[Jeremy Smith 2Participant @jeremysmith2]

Posted by Chris Evans 6 on 09/02/2020 09:13:59:

Jeremy, let us know where in the world you are. (County/nearest big town) There may be someone locally willing to help get you started.

I am located in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. It would be great if there was a member cclose to me which could show me the ins and outs of this unit.

Edited By Jeremy Smith 2 on 09/02/2020 14:29:43

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Thanks for letting us Know Jeremy, I am in the middle of the UK so can't just pop round…….

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