Recommendations for first lathe

[danielwParticipant @danielw]

Hello,

I’m new here, making my first post!

I have just completed the build of a workshop in the garden, it’s an empty shell right now, and it’s ready to be kitted out!

I need a lathe, and I need recommendations. I’m keen on scratch building 16mm (1/19 scale) live steam locomotives. I think the biggest thing I will be making for those is the wheel sets, lets say up to 50mm steel. But I think what it will be used for most is actually centre drilling brass steam fittings and axles.

I have zero experience or knowledge of these machines. If I’m being honest I feel like I know less now than when I started researching. I’ve found a lot of threads where similar questions have been asked and the answers are so contradicting I cannot make a decision on my own.

For example, I found a thread from a few years ago asking for lathe recommendations. The first 3 or 4 responses said to buy a used Myford ML7 or Super 7, and to steer way clear of Chinese lathes as they will fail rapidly. Then the following several responses said to avoid the Myford lathes because they are aging machines, and a new Chinese lathe will be way more precise than a worn out Myford machine. Two very contradictory view points that left me thinking maybe I need to steer clear of them both?

I think what I need is for someone to just tell me what to buy. Then I can at least start learning about the chosen machine.

 

Many thanks

Dan

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

Q1 How big is the budget? Remember that the rule of thumb is that you will spend as much again as the machine costs on tools, tooling and accessories. I suspect you will also quickly find the need for a small milling machine.

If 50mm is the biggest size you can see yourself turning, then I would suggest a Taig, Sherline or if the budget will stretch to it a Cowells. The Taig will be cheapest (see Rotagrip for information), but it is more of a kit of parts than  ready to run. Sherline (Millhill supplies) is dearer but ready to make chips out of the box. For both I would suggest getting the ER16 collet headstock. Cowells is the Rolls Royce option.

I do clock scale things, and have a Taig. most of what I turn fits into an ER16 collet (up to 10mm) with chucks and faceplates for bigger stuff. With some ingenuity (and riser blocks) the Taig will turn something 150mm diameter.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Either will do perfectly. Depends how much you want to spend. If you want new, your choices are far east unless you are cash rich.

Bear in mind the cost and availability of spares/accessories is as much an issue as the price of the machine. Therefore  Boxfords, and other older British makes are best avoided. There is some nominal support for Myford (at a price).

The cohort of the population that had an interest in this hobby are starting to move on in increasing numbers, so quite a lot is becoming available S/H and prices are more affordable. For a decent basic  ML7 I wouldn’t give more than £700 maybe max £1K for a Super 7. you could double those prices if fully loaded with appropriate tooling.

An ML10 (go for the speed 10), it is nice and compact and might suit your requirement. One on this site with a fair set of equipment and a tumbler reverse mod (not sure if still available).

There is plenty available out there so take your time. Might be worth sending a round robin to various local clubs to see if anyone is wanting to move kit on.

 

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Martins advice about local clubs is a good one. You can easily double your outlay by the time you have it tooled up so bear that in mind unless your lucky and it is already kitted out. How much do you have or want to spend ? Many a good tune can be played on an old fiddle. Even buy a cheap worn unit to get started – then when you have a better idea upgrade . VFDs and variable speed are nice – but not essential. A clutch is handy but again not essential. Simple milling can be done with a vertical slide, there are many ways to skin a cat,rabbit Etc.

Take your time, Good luck. Noel.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If it were just upto 50mm I would probaly go with the Sherline but by th etime you have got some bits with it you are into their C package type pricing of around £1700. The Sherline and similar size lathes are ideal to work at sitting down if that is a consideration, otherwise you will be standing at the other options. Not just something to think about due to age but small work may require the use of magnification which is more comfortable when seated to bending down peering over the work.

For £3-500 less you could get a 210mm swing far eastern machine that will do what you want and a whole lot more with it’s bigger capacity for those jobs that are bound to come along. I’ve made plenty of model engines on far eastern machines and they are more than upto the task and you can get a good tune out of them. Look at the overal lprices and see what is includes for example you may get a 4-jaw chuck as standard from some suppliers but not others, same applie sto the Sherline and Myford.

A Myford that is in good condition is certainly another option but would you know a dog that has been gone over with Scotchbrite and had a lick of paint to a good condition one that may not look as cosmetically pleasing?

 

[Peter Cook 6]

Thank you for your responses everyone! I will try to address them the best I can below! If I haven’t your question it may have been answered in a different reply.

On Peter Cook 6 Said:

Q1 How big is the budget? Remember that the rule of thumb is that you will spend as much again as the machine costs on tools, tooling and accessories. I suspect you will also quickly find the need for a small milling machine.

If 50mm is the biggest size you can see yourself turning, then I would suggest a Taig, Sherline or if the budget will stretch to it a Cowells. The Taig will be cheapest (see Rotagrip for information), but it is more of a kit of parts than  ready to run. Sherline (Millhill supplies) is dearer but ready to make chips out of the box. For both I would suggest getting the ER16 collet headstock. Cowells is the Rolls Royce option.

I do clock scale things, and have a Taig. most of what I turn fits into an ER16 collet (up to 10mm) with chucks and faceplates for bigger stuff. With some ingenuity (and riser blocks) the Taig will turn something 150mm diameter.

Budget right now is a variable situation. I understand these tools often are not cheap, and I can stretch decently for the correct machine. Having said that though, the Cowells option I would suggest is well out of budget unfortunately, although I think it’s a superb looking machine.

I must say I like the look of all three of these lathes. I’m not adverse to assembling things myself, but having zero experience leans me more towards the Sherline.

I must say all of these suggestion are much more compact than what I have been looking at. I’m wondering if I’ve overestimated the type of machine I’m going to need!

 

On Martin of Wick Said:

Either will do perfectly. Depends how much you want to spend. If you want new, your choices are far east unless you are cash rich.

Bear in mind the cost and availability of spares/accessories is as much an issue as the price of the machine. Therefore  Boxfords, and other older British makes are best avoided. There is some nominal support for Myford (at a price).

The cohort of the population that had an interest in this hobby are starting to move on in increasing numbers, so quite a lot is becoming available S/H and prices are more affordable. For a decent basic  ML7 I wouldn’t give more than £700 maybe max £1K for a Super 7. you could double those prices if fully loaded with appropriate tooling.

An ML10 (go for the speed 10), it is nice and compact and might suit your requirement. One on this site with a fair set of equipment and a tumbler reverse mod (not sure if still available).

There is plenty available out there so take your time. Might be worth sending a round robin to various local clubs to see if anyone is wanting to move kit on.

 

Spares support is an excellent consideration, and something I have not thought about. Having no experience means I’m probably going to make mistakes, and if mistakes equal damage then I need to make sure I can repair.

I will keep any eye out! I’m not aware of any local clubs to be honest, I’m certain there will be some I’m not aware of, but I don’t know how to find them!

On noel shelley Said:

Martins advice about local clubs is a good one. You can easily double your outlay by the time you have it tooled up so bear that in mind unless your lucky and it is already kitted out. How much do you have or want to spend ? Many a good tune can be played on an old fiddle. Even buy a cheap worn unit to get started – then when you have a better idea upgrade . VFDs and variable speed are nice – but not essential. A clutch is handy but again not essential. Simple milling can be done with a vertical slide, there are many ways to skin a cat,rabbit Etc.

Take your time, Good luck. Noel.

I’ll have a look round to see what I can find! Definitely a lot to consider. Thank you!

On JasonB Said:

If it were just upto 50mm I would probaly go with the Sherline but by th etime you have got some bits with it you are into their C package type pricing of around £1700. The Sherline and similar size lathes are ideal to work at sitting down if that is a consideration, otherwise you will be standing at the other options. Not just something to think about due to age but small work may require the use of magnification which is more comfortable when seated to bending down peering over the work.

For £3-500 less you could get a 210mm swing far eastern machine that will do what you want and a whole lot more with it’s bigger capacity for those jobs that are bound to come along. I’ve made plenty of model engines on far eastern machines and they are more than upto the task and you can get a good tune out of them. Look at the overal lprices and see what is includes for example you may get a 4-jaw chuck as standard from some suppliers but not others, same applie sto the Sherline and Myford.

A Myford that is in good condition is certainly another option but would you know a dog that has been gone over with Scotchbrite and had a lick of paint to a good condition one that may not look as cosmetically pleasing?

 

This is the direction I’m leaning towards. I’m inclined to stand up when I work, so sitting is not particularly a concern right now, but definitely something to consider!

Regarding your last question, I would honestly have have no idea what I’m looking for. There is currently a Myford ML7 fairly local to me, and I must say it looks unused in the pictures. But I wouldn’t know how to take it apart and check for wear inside, this is a completely new world to me!

 

Now at the risk of making myself look like a fool, I have seen several recommendations for the Sieg sc2. I have also seen several recommendations NOT to buy a Sieg sc2. It’s seems cheap for what you get, I assume that’s for good reason? Where would it stack up against the Taig and Sherline offerings?

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

Sieg Cxs are just another version of universal Chinese mini lathe, virtually indistinguishable from similar made by Weiss (marketed by Warco and others in the UK). They are as good or bad as you want them to be. Now ARC and Axminster have gone, not sure where you would source a new one in the UK.

Advantage of the UCMLs, apart from being more affordable, would be a greater centre height and space between centres than Sheerline and Cowels etc. Of course, you may not consider the increased size to be an advantage al all!

People have done great work on Taigs, but for me they lean too much towards the loominum, brass, plastic end of the lathing world (and yes I do own one thank you very much!). You can do much better for not much more money (unless you need a very small lathe because of space restrictions or needing to work in your bedroom etc.).

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

While the shed is still empty increase the insulation to 4″, line that with plastic with every joint taped so there are absolutely no draughts. We are just now going from cold dry to warm wet and every unsealed shed will be dripping with condensation.
For clubs – google “model engineering club in Mytown” also “Men’s Sheds”, “Model Railway”, “Maker”, also preserved railways Gauge1 and 16mm local groups. Although some may not seem to cater specifically for metalwork they will certainly have members with an interest because they attract our sort of person. Even if the nearest is 20 miles away they will likely have members in your town whom you don’t know about because there isn’t a way for them to make contact.
A couple  of years ago I was unloading a new lathe in my little very rural village and someone I’d known for years happened to be passing and revealed he had a Myford, his father had a Colchester; the later introduced me to a professional vintage car restorer in the next village. I have since found a full size railway engine business and a lathe bed grinding works in rural locations within 15 miles. London Underground used to get their bronze switchgear castings from a little works only 2 miles from me.  It’s all around but often invisible.

The lathes so far mentioned are high quality expensive and over the top for a beginner. Look on ebay at Hobbymat (MD65), Drummond, Old Myfords ML1,2,3,4, Perfecto, RandA and its many clones. You should get something for under £300 that is perfectly adequate for the simple low precision work you want to do. So few things need 1 thou accuracy that if parts are out of spec it is cheaper to have another go rather than spend an extra £1k on a posh lathe.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

If it’s a new wooden shed (which they leave soaking for a day in preservative) I would leave the machinery till the shed has fully dried out and things are warmer. Don’t forget as soon as machines get delivered the guarantee starts burning.

Seig machines appear to be better protected from newbe overloading, but things move on and others may have closed the gap.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

Solo learning on worn-out machines is a miserable path..

[James AParticipant @jamesalford67616]

From my limited experience, I would err towards a modern design of machine, be it new or second-hand. I have a Flexispeed, the predecessor of the Cowells. Although I am very happy with it, buying accessories for it is a problem. Nothing modern fits and I if want chucks, faceplates, centres and so forth, I either need to adapt something, made it from scratch or spend forever searching for old parts that are inevitably worn. Buying a modern machine avoids this.

By the way, although Axminster Tools have closed most of their shops, they are still supplying Sieg lathes on-line.

James.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Have a look at this site:</p>
https://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/

To see what can be done with a mini lathe and mill. I think if you want to turn 50mm dia steel wheels the likes of a Taig or even Sherline would struggle.

[John Haine]

On John Haine Said:

I think if you want to turn 50mm dia steel wheels the likes of a Taig or even Sherline would struggle.

Not sure I agree John. Here’s a video of Larry Poindexter taking up to 0.1″ cuts in mild steel on his Taig which seems to be equipped with a Sherline motor. Probably way deeper cuts than I would try on mine, but I would certainly tackle 2″ diameter steel with no qualms at all.

The third picture in this post shows the three winding barrels from my clock project. The barrels are 90mm long and the end plates 60mm diameter. No problem at all, although the ratchets were laser cut.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You can’t be linking to videos like that Peter all those that say you need big rigid lathes to use carbide will be falling out of their armchairs😎

I’ve turned upto 80mm diameter cast iron on my little Unimat 3. Sure you are never going to take as much off in one go as an industrial machine but used sensibly they can all do a lot. And lets face it with any loco, traction engine or stationary engine there are only a few parts of large diameter so most of the time you are doing smaller fine work and can put up with those couple of items taking a bit longer. The high spindle speeds then come into their own no slow top speed due to old plain bearings.

Not forgetting that you can buy riser blocks for the Sherline that will up it’s capacity.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Jason, I’m sure that you and Peter and Larry are pretty skilled and would tackle this on a small lathe with no qualms, but for a beginner it probably wouldn’t be so easy.  They will have little feel for what to expect, may have the speed set too low or too high, and a bit trepidacious as they start to cut.  The tool digs in, the lathe stalls, they get even more nervous.  Once some skill is acquired and you have a feel for what works it’s quite different.  I always hated parting off after all the horror stories and advice to use lowest back gear and feed slowly.  Only when I read that I should use the lowest open speed and use the self-act feed I found that actually it’s quite easy and trouble free.  Having a bigger heavier lathe with a bit more power will be more forgiving.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well that 80mm piece of cast iron was the flywheel (Stuart 10V) on the first steam engine I made when I was in my teens. I’d only done metal work at school and have no engineering background so was definately a beginner when I did it.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, if you have near to zero knowledge of using a lathe, then you would be better getting some training on one from a club or a college, or even someone you know before you think about buying any lathe, so that you can make a better judgement of what you’re likely to need. Don’t dismiss far eastern lathes via hearsay. I’ve had a far eastern mini lathe for a little over ten years, and it is still working fine, I also had a second hand far eastern lathe, a bit bigger than a Myford ML7, which I had for 18 years, and it was still in good order when I sold it just recently, as I’ve upgraded to a new larger far eastern lathe with variable speed.

Regards Nick.

[JAParticipant @ja]

I think this topic has wandered around a bit so I am going to write something.

First, Dan, how much machining experience have you, particularly at using a lathe? If none, you need help and don’t expect to find it on YouTube (the home of misinformation and bad practice). Do you have a tight budget? Where in the country are you? There are always people prepared to physically help you, mentor you.

Second, you know what you want to make which is good. However this may change. It could get smaller or larger. The old advice of getting a big lathe is rubbish, you cannot make a small clock on a 13″ Dean, Smith & Grace just as you cannot make a 7 1/4″ Paddington steam loco on a Cowells.

What to get, if you have the money buy new but remember tooling also costs money. If you go down the used route a factory recondition is next best to new. Otherwise buy one with a known history and, if possible, look at the work done on that lathe (it could tell you what the lathe is capable of and how well it has been looked after). You may find someone local sell his workshop or, more likely, a model engineering club selling of a dead member’s workshop for his estate. In both cases you should get a good impression of the lathe and its use. Last there are the used machine tool dealers, who have a very good idea of what they are selling (the indication is the price), and eBay etc where anything goes (or does not).

Make contact with the local model engineering society. While playing around trying to run a 5″ gauge railway may not strike you as fun, you are like to find members who are more interesting in making models and helping others. My club has a very active 16mm loco group for example (but not my scene).

I have not answered about what actual lathe to buy. Everyone can give you different advice on that but the lathes that I have owned have been Myfords and a Cowells so my advice is very impartial.

JA

Started writing before seeing Nick’s reply.

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

John, remember that 50mm dia was the LARGEST thing that the OP suggested he would need to turn. Hence my suggestions. Small lathes can turn bigger items once you have a bit of skill, but that’s not where the OP is going to start.

As Jason says most models only have a few large components, the rest are far smaller.

At the other end of the spectrum, I often need to turn brass bushes 2mm dia, 1.8mm long with 0.5mm through holes. Simple on the Taig (10,000 rpm max speed), but not something I would fancy doing on an ML7 or even a small Chinese lathe.

 

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I might as well add my two pence. Since I have quite a lot of experience. (Owned – Myford ML7 Super 7 ML10, Boxford AUD ME10, Raglan Loughborough, Sieg C0 C1 C2, Cowells ME CW, Emco 3, Unimat SL, Sherline, Taig and more!)

First and foremost. You really need to decide a budget as it makes a huge difference. A £1000 will get you a nice used machine. That would be a good target IMO.

Second, buy a bigger lathe than you think you need. You can do small stuff on a big lathe, but you can’t do big stuff on a small lathe. (I have a collection of 8 small lathes and a Boxford). If I could only keep one, it would be the Boxford without a shadow of a doubt.

Third. In general, if the condition is equal then for the sake of argument you can assume that old British/American/European made stuff is better than Far Eastern. BUT! Condition is everything. A brand new far eastern machine is likely to be better than a clapped out old British one.

With that in mind, don’t be scared of used machines. Just learn what to look for. It really isn’t that difficult:

• Has it been painted? If so what is the paint hiding? A painted lathe more often than not means a well used machine.
• Does the chuck look battered? If so, it’s a good indication of misuse.
• Look at the bed under the chuck. Score marks are another indicator of abuse.
• If you can physically view the lathe, do. Ask to see it running. Lathes are noisy, but any grinding or squeeling is usually bad news. Run the carriage up and down the bed. If it is excessively loose or tight at any point that’s bad news. Put some weight (by pushing) on the chuck. If there is any movement in the spindle walk away.
• Has it been modified? If so run a mile.

 

So with that said. Here’s my opinion on what to buy, and what not to buy.

Forget the micro lathes, I won’t go into detail but they are unforgiving to the amateur. Small lathes are more difficult to use than big ones. You’ll just have to trust me on that!

A Myford ML7 or Super 7 is a good lathe, but far too many of them are in poor condition. You need to spend well over £1000 to get a good one really. Perhaps not a wise choice for a newbie.

A Boxford AUD BUD CUD is a good choice provided you do the checks suggested. In general they are pretty bomb proof. Most of them come out of schools and collages and are usually in reasonably good condition. Don’t buy one that looks like it’s been used in a factory! A £1000 will get a good one. Accessories are expensive though so bare that in mind.

Far eastern machines. They can be seriously frustrating! Especially the lower end models. Poor build quality, tolerance issues and electrical faults are commonplace. You want to learn how to use a lathe not fix one! Admittedly the more expensive ones are far better.

A Myford ML10 would be a great choice IMO. It’s a medium-small size machine that isn’t too expensive. A £1000 would get you a very nice example. The build quality is good and far better than lower end Chinese machines. Since they were designed with the model engineer in mind, most of them have only ever seen hobby use. Which means most of them are in good shape and you are less likely to get a dog. Accessories are fairly common and the prices for which are middle of the road.

In conclusion. A Boxford BUD or Myford ML10 would be a fairly safe bet. In the £500-£1000 range.

 

 

[HuubParticipant @huub]

I have (ab)used a HBM DC300 Chinese mini lathe for 10+ years. It had an 80 mm chuck, 300 mm between centers, 21 mm spindle bore, 60 kg weight and the largest part I have turned was a 160 mm aluminum lathe clamping plate. That took me half a day but I got it done.
Turning accuracy steel outer diameters (converted it to CNC after a few years) was about 0.01 mm. I needed to measure 3 times (3 finishing passes) to get that accuracy.

At some point I wanted to make a rotary table (40 mm diameter, 310 mm long) that fits in a vice and the part was to large for my mini lathe so I bought a new HBM BF290 Chinese lathe. It has a 160 mm chuck, 600 mm between centers, 290 kg weight. I converted it to CNC as soon as I got it. The largest part I have turned on it was a 500 mm long, 85 mm diameter stainless steel bar with 120 groves. I guess, I am using this lathe for 8 years now.
Turning accuracy steel outer diameters is 0.01 mm. I need to measure 1 times (3 finishing passes, measure after the 2e finish pass) to get that accuracy.

I can only say that a “decent brand” chines lathe can do a good job. 290 kg seems a lot but it still is a light weight lathe. I prefer the bigger lathe because it has a larger chuck, larger bore diameter, larger bed length (never needed to remove the tail stock) and is easier to turn tight dimensions or to mount larger diameter stock.

If I had the space (shop is on the 1e floor), I would buy an even heavier new Chinese lathe. Not because I need it but more mass and more rigidity makes turning easier.
When I look at the wear marks on the lathe bed, I think I will never wear down this lathe (66 years old/young now).

If you are used to a big and heavy industrial lathe, you will find the Chinese bench lathes toys.

Chinese bench lathes are accurate enough for (my) hobby use but can’t compete with an industrial heavy tool room lathe.

If you lack the skills, even the best lathe will not make better parts.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

When the question of small micro lathes comes up I often mention Chris Ruby who posts a lot on MEM forum and is possibly even more prolific than me. Just an amateur working at home in his retirement with a non engineering background. If you look towards the bottom of this page you can see some of the model engineering projects he has completed including a Shay loco.

Some more work here including a photo of his machines, long bed Sherline lathe with riser blocks and a Sherline Mill. No DROs

So they can be quite forgiving, I guess it just depends on the users natural aptitude and what they expect to get out of a machine. Many buy too small to start with and most of what they make is really too big for that size machine so it will struggle at or beyond its realistic capacity.

With the blocks the Sherline can handle the occasional part upto 150mm so the 50mm wheels that the OP wants to turn and maybe a smokebox door will be well within it’s range. All the other small mostly brass fittings and a few steel rods for axles etc it will handle with ease. Better site for Sherline is the US one rather than what is on Millhill’s site

As mentioned above I started with a Micro lathe in the form of an Emco Unimat3, this is the same size as a CO Micro Lathe but of a similar quality to the Sherline, Taig and Cowells. That 10V of mine will work under load at 1200rpm yet smooth enough to also work just by blowing into it.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I would avoid any of the pre WWII hobby lathes like Perfecto Myford ML1,2,3,4 etc. They were limited when new and are likely to be in poor condition.
I’s second tha suggestion of a new chinese mini lathe or used Myford ML7, Super 7 or ML10. If buying a Myford look at what tooling you get with it this can save a lot of money. You don’t hav  to take a Mayford apart fro basic checks on condition. Look for wear and damage especially near the headstock and obvious signs of abuse.
Axminster have not gone yet but are in receivership so use a credit card to makesure you have independent means of getting your money back if something goes wrong. I’ve new used them though.

Robert.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Although it may say Axminster on the website you are now actually dealing with the new company “Newday” who are not in receivership. Look right at the bottom of their website page.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Despite what someone has recommended, steer well clear of the Myford ML10. It’s the most awkward, poorly designed and inconvenient machine you could possibly encounter. I don’t know why Myford bothered. The backgear engagement arrangement is pathetic. The belt guard opens the ‘wrong’ way, the changewheel guard wobbles on a piece of square stock and reversing the leadscrew is very difficult.

If I were to be starting again it would be a ‘no brainer’ to opt for a Chinese machine supplied by a reputable importer. Modern Chinese products have been manufactured in well-invested facilities and are not the ‘made in Hong Kong’ junk they used to be, despite what the more xenophobic commentators might try to tell you. You get a lot of ‘bang for your buck’ with most being supplied with a good range of accessories, chucks and steadies etc., and remember that British-made machines such as the Boxford haven’t been produced for getting on for fifty-years so are going to be well worn although still capable of good work in the right hands. It’s very much up to the individual’s choice, but it would be a new Chinese machine every time for me.

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