Is anyone interested in developping a new series of model engines?

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, this scan from my 1968 Stuart catalogue, shows what JasonB has said.

Regards Nick.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Or what about an earlier Senior “Simplex” castings, machined, finished as well as many individual parts that could be machined. Still available to buy as a casting kit today. But you will have to put up with metric CAD drawings, 3D assembly drawings, some laser cut parts and the world not being flat.

Talking of Simplex, the engine of the same name by Stuarts was also available ready to run, not much changed in 100 yrs wher ether eis demand there will be supply.

 

Nothing to stop anyone making their own today, be that in old imperial or metric like my design

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

Thanks for the reply, and I did consider this route, but dismissed it for several reasons, not least of all because I do not want to be beholdant to another entity who could decide to not supply castings at some point. I also want to create something new, not recycle an old design.
I have nothing against old designs at all, many are works of art, but that’s not what I want to create here.

Genuinely , thanks for taking the time to reply

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Further to Jason suggestion of 24mm to 1 ” for metricating old designs, using 2.25mm to the inch gives almost exactly 127mm, or 5″ gauge for model standard gauge locos.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Paul –

It would seem then that you rule out castings. If parts of whatever you publish can be 3D printed or CNC cut (laser or water-jet) you may well have more choice of suppliers; and at least one advertises in the magazine.

Designing in metric, fine. If a builder has only imperial machines, micrometers, etc, he or she can convert the numbers as they go. I use either system according to project, converting as and when necessary.

 

However, the thread has rather wandered off from your question: can we have new designs of models?

I for one am not certain what machines you wish to offer, for a start.

You can design as many steam-engines, i.c.-engines, hot-air engines, water turbines, gas turbines… as you like; but really, all these are re-inventing if not the wheel then certainly very familiar objects.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I agree with nigel that most typical configurations of stationary steam engines have already been done so a “new” design would tend to have similar features to existing kits. However there are still plenty of subjects out there that could be produced as kits and be regarded as “New”

Lets take this oscillating engine that I based on an old engine I saw at an exhibition. Nothing too complicated for a beginner if the bed, cylinder and flywheel were provided as castings, yet nothing out there available as a kit.

Another wobbler which would make quite a nice kit,  just four castings – Base, standard, flywheel and cylinder, maybe scale it down a bit so it would fit on smaller machines as the flywheel is just over mini-lathe size

.

One more, don’t recall seeing any kits with the Allen Linkage so that would be a “new” one. Just a few castings again – base cylinder, head and flywheel. Maybe do the legs as laser cut parts

Again another mechanisum that has not been offered as a kit so a New one to the market

 

On the other hand to bllow my own trumpet again it is quite possible to have similar engines that look completely different. Take my versions or the Stuart real and james Coombes as examples. The old Stuart ones are quite basic and void of detail yet by using just one or two castings like the flywheel and cylinder completely different “new” engines can be created, in this case of thesame size and very similar mechanically. A few more of teh fabricated parts a scastings and you would have something for the more advanced customer.

My Real

Plain Stuart one

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

paul, my above post assumes you ar ethinking of traditional looking engines. Is that so or are you thinking of something less traditional?

Examples might be what Nick Rowland produces like the type B, although a loyal cycle (similar to 2-stroke) something like that with teh addition of poppet or piston valves could easily become an air/steam engine. Just 4 castings, two if you don’t include the silencer halves.

Or his Type D, again very much a fanasy design with just 3 castings, similar could be done for air/steam

The other option is a far more modern look, I’m thinking of an old curvy and rounded Myford being like a traditional steam engine but you could go for a more angular design like you see on modern benchtop lathes and mills. All cap head screws rather than old nuts & studs, etc. Again using one of Nicks prototypes as an example something like this could be built as a single acting air/steam engine. Cast flywheel and two piece frame could be cast or CNC machined leaving the builder to complete there details and other bits from bar stock. Potential to also offer it in IC and flame licker versions at a later date

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Back in the early 70’s Edgar T Westbury introduced the Gemini High Speed Engine. At that time I thought this was a refreshing design which resembled modern day automobile engines.

Alas I have only seen one or two examples of this design. Probably the all enclosed design did not appeal to the traditionalists.

At that time some small timing belts came into my possession and I built a version out of bar stock. Sadly that engine disappeared long ago.

However as a little aside to my more usual workshop equipment accessories I had a further visit to ETW’s design. There never was a 3 cylinder version, but I could not resist the temptation. A V4 design was also published as an aside but no details. All are prefabricated from brass sections and make an interesting silver soldering exercise.

These engines are all scaled down from the original but they run beautifully on air or steam. A lot of the parts are common to all 3 engines.

Regards

Gray,

 

[Julie AnnParticipant @julieann]

As I read it this is a commercial venture. So the key for anyone offering to help is; what is in it for them? Will they be paid and if so at what rate?

Julie

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Many interesting points have been brought up ! Metric naturally ! Working or not ? If working then if on air a source of air is needed, live steam will need a boiler.  Size ? For small lathes Etc Stuart 10 type ? The smaller the engine the greater the accuracy needed.  Who are the target customer ? Cost ? A ball park will be needed before much time is spent on the project ! Would the kit be complete but spares available ?

The model world of kits is littered with tears ! Winson/Modelworks = a terrible design held together with loctite, IF it ran bits would drop off. Cost many £K. Recently a traction engine builder. Again many £K. Stuart Models, OK now but had a very bad patch, even as the original it did supply faulty parts. At least only £100s.

If this is to be a commercial venture then very careful thought is needed ! Noel.

[Julie Ann]

On Julie Ann Said:

As I read it this is a commercial venture. So the key for anyone offering to help is; what is in it for them? Will they be paid and if so at what rate?

Julie

This is an interesting point and one I touched on earlier when discussing what money is to be made.

I think that in the past a lot of the designs that we see have been developed privately and then passed on to a supplier. Things like the various 1″ x 2″ Stuarts were all developed using their original beam engine cylinder and flywheel castings by others. Anthony Mount designed his range and originally marketed some under his own name but the sales and production side were taken over by Bruce/Polly. So no doubt in both cases the companies had an arrangement maybe a lump sum or royalties on kits sold.

I also make quiet a few hit and miss engines, again many of these originate from individuals who had access to a full size one to measure up and just made one for themselves. Then a few people come along and want castings so they start small scale production. From that the patterns and design may be sold to a larger supplier, picked up in an estate sale when they pass or just get lost. So again some financial arrangement when sold to the larger supplier or costs if buying up old designs/patterns.

The other option which has worked for me when I do some design and CNC pattern making is that I get a set of castings out of it and maybe a couple of additional flywheels if I have done a larger proportion of the work. The other designs that get published in the mag which would be similar if a build manual and photos were needed is that I get paid by the page so something like the Clarkson that has just been in the mag would get me about £12-1300 mag.

Now if the OP were doing all the design and developement by himself then it would not take so long to see a reward. however if having to pay someone else those sort of amounts then there is not going to be so much in it for him unltil a larger number of kits have been sold.

Having worked with kit suppliers and the foundries they use I have a good idea of the markup on castings ( they do not generally supply materials or fixings)is likely to be and it is going to quite a small return once you figure in things like having a website, costs of online shopping, adverts or in this day and age giving away kits for a review attending exhibitions as a trader, storeage, etc

At best you will get some pocket money to spend on your hobby, that is the way I look at it with what I get published in the mag or the sets of castings. Certainly not something that will take over the day job but if the OP has done his sums, can find a supplier of decent castings then he may get a few quid out of it.

I can’t say it is not something I have considered myself either just selling sets of drawings for the ones that can be made from barstock or possibly supplying one or two CNC machined” castings” though 3D printed would now be a better option. But I don’t really need the money so can’t be bothered with the hassle and I would only sell via the likes of ebay as setting up a webshop is not making engines which is what I would rather be doing.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

This just popped up on facebook. Now that IS a kit even if it is ready machined and what a price

StoryGears

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>I know of one design for a 5″g loco that is offered by the trade who didn’t even ask the original designer, never mind offer him any money. It had been published in ME, so not sure what IPR applies</p>

[paulmichael1084]

On paulmichael1084 Said:

Good questions

………..

As for the type of model, I was thinking of starting with something small (IE shoe boxed size),……………..

I don’t have a target price in mind but I’m thinking sub £500.

I just so happene dto have  ashow box and thought I would illustrate my point about size and costs both of which I feel are too high for a beginners model.

Case No 1. Just the two flywheels and the bed casting for this engine cost me £330 inc postage. No doubt could have got them a little cheaper if done on match plates and a small batch. If that engine were to be marketed as a kit it would need at least a casting for the head so cost at least £400. I know it is not a beginners model but it is about shoebox size. If you were to add in the material costs I would say you would be touching the £600 mark more if you included gears, fixings, burner and the pipe elbws that I had 3D printed. So what would the retail price be for a shobox size engine to cover all the costs I have mentioned in previous posts I would be wanting at least £1000 for the basic castings & materials and another £250 plus for the full package. Hard to get more than a few experienced modellers to pay that sort of money let alone a beginner. This is one of my own designs.

Case No 2

Again an IC engine I’m affraid but it is shoebox sized. This one I did some CAD work and CNC cut some of the patterns. I got 21kg of cast iron for my efforts😉 and a lot more of them😉 though some were rubbish and went in th escrap.😥

I know these castings came from a different foundry to the one I used for the engine above and they were very reasonably priced but the quality has gone right down. Again I would say the castings cost about £400, and there is going to be another £200 or so in other materials and if epicyclic gears and fixings included thats another £200. So again would be looking for the same minimum retail amount. New foundry add another few hundread onto those figures

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

The trouble with steam engines is that you really need a boiler !  Air with a compressor droning in the background doesn’t do it for me.

A simple IC engine (is there such a thing) has led me to FarmBoy.  If its a success, I would like to make something like the Seal, but its probably beyond me !

Bob

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It does depend on your choice of air compressor. My quiet one with the larger tank will run some of the smaller engines for well over an hour before the motor kicks in again. Even the noisy one will give 1/2hr running before deafening you.

A small aquarium pump just makes a low hum and could be sited outside or in another room, again enough to run engines for display.

Or there is always the self generating method.

Or if you have built an oscillator that can be turned by hand or a slowly running lathe and become an air pump

I also have images of an old Fairbanks Morse air compressor that would make a nice model so that could be run off the lathe or even a model hit & miss engine though I have also seen one converted to 4-stroke which has a bit more appeal

 

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

Hi everyone,
I’m having some trouble posting replies here. I keep getting error that I am not authorised. So my apologies for not replying to some posts.

This is what I have tried to post in reply to @robertatkinson2;

An interesting question. No slight or rudeness was intended, if any was perceived then please accept my apologies.

My name is Paul, I live in Greater Manchester, and I have been an engineer since I left school in 1996.
My specialism is in industrial electrical engineering, and my LinkedIn profile can be found here

https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwilks?utm_source=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=member_android

I take a size 17 collar, have worn the exact same brand and style of trousers my entire adult life, and I have a penchant for loud heavy metal music.

Perhaps you could tell me what sort of ulterior motive you were concerned lay behind my initial post?

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

I see that worked! Splendid.

Firstly thank you to everyone who in contributing to this discussion. I am quite overwhelmed by the reaction!

I’m currently reading carefully through all the posts, and will write a more full reply shortly, I just wanted to say thank you, and explain my technical difficulties!

Again a REALLY big thank you to everyone for the discussion, it is much appreciated

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

These are not in any particular order, so please bear with me

@ja
I disagree with you entirley! It is exactly “a bunch of old model engineers” I want to talk to. I want that knowledhe, experiance and passion that I am looking for

Size
On reflection I think that shoe box size may be a bit large, thanks for pointing that out. That sort of thing is exactly the sort of conversation I’m looking for

@diogenes
As to how I would compete on price, the answer is I wouldn’t necessarily aim to. In other ventures I have not aimed to compete on price but other things. Here those could be, Made in Britian, original design to name but 2. I’m sure there are others areas that we could compete on.

Finishing level (IE, plain castings, partially machined etc…)
I see us offering the options. The customer could get everything from raw castings or bar stock, all the way up to a fully finished model, which feeds into my comment above about competing in areas other than just price.

Cost
Thanks for all the discussion around price, and the examples. One thing that has been proven is that there is a very wide variety of prices out there. This is evidently something that needs very careful consideration

Castings vs bar stock vs CNC manufactured blanks
This is a lot of food for thought here, with people suggesting options I hadn’t considered. As with most aspects of this, nothing is set in stone and I welcome discussion. Once I have an idea of direction then I can approach various suppliers and discuss options.
To clarify my position, I run an engineering company and we have some capabilities in house such as CAD, 3D printing CO2 laser, and a small milling & turing setup, anything I can’t do in house I have an established network of suppliers to turn to.

Metric vs imperial
This is fundamental to me. I realise I maybe a ‘youngun’ on here but at 46 I’m not exactly a pup, and with 30 years engineering under my belt I wouldn’t consider myself wet behind the ears either. So I don’t believe I am the only person who finds imperial a barrier. I take the point about it is possible to convert, in fact I do it on a daily basis as part of my job, but that doesn’t mean I enjoy it, or want to do it as part of a hobby.
So thank you to all who have expressed opinions (very well reasoned and presented as well), but what I want to do HAS to be metric.

“Metricate” an existing kit
As I think I mentioned when this was first posted, I don’t want to do this for a number of reasons. Not least of all I want to build this from the ground up, and not be beholdant to another company for the IP (Intellectual Property.
Thanks for the suggestion, but it is not a route I wish to take.

Commercial venture?
Yes it is. Possibly. Allow me to explain. I don’t have a definite business model in mind. Certainly it’s not something I would do for nothing (anyone can work for free), but I’m not dead set on any one model. So to answer @julieann ‘s point, I have no pre-conceived idea as to what is in it for anyone I partner with, but I’m not expecting anyone to give their time and experience for free. There are a few ways that I can see. Firstly we could agree a one off fee for the design work, or we could agree a profit share arrangement, or maybe  a mix of them both, or something I haven’t thought of. If I appeared to be trying to ‘fleece’ someone of their time it definitley was not my intention. I’m looking for someone to partner with, as I accept that amoungst my skillset I cannot count any great degree of experience in this craft.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Edit – Posted before you added a lot more to the above post.

 

Maybe a bit more research is needed. I would say that at least 95% of casting kits bought in the UK are sourced from the UK and cast here. There are a small proportion who will buy from the US or Europe but that is small, the most common non UK would be those by P M Research and available here from Forrest Classics. Probably less than 1% like me will buy direct from overseas.

All these engines were original designs when they came out, but there is room for new or something different. Take a look at the designs by Anthony Mount sold by Polly Engineering if you want an idea of “original” designs, many of which are in metric or dual dimensions but I would not class those as beginners engines.

I think it is not so much competing on price but pricing in the right sort of ball park unless you can really offer a lot more than what is currently available. Particularly at the beginners end of the market where they may not want to commit to expensive castings that they could muck up, origin or originallity does not stop someone mucking up a casting.

Metric is a selling point to beginners for reasons discussed already but there is a Metric drawing (book)  of the popular Stuart 10V and the similar size beginners engines by Clarkson (sold by Blackgates) now also have a metric drawing set thanks to my efforts.

The main thing any new supplier will be judged by is the quality of their castings and the quality of the drawings/build notes. Do you have a foundry in mind which will produce consistent quality castings at a reasonable cost?

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

That’s interesting to hear that most of the kits sold in the UK are cast here. To someone who runs a UK Manufacturing compnay it is very encouaging to hear.

I haven’t spoken to any foundires about this, and I confess I haven’t worked with any, but I did do a lot of research and spoke to many foundires for a report for a customer a few years ago about producing castings for explosion proof enclosures for hazardous areas (pharmacutical, petro-chemical etc) so I knwo the supplier base is out there, and relativley local to me.

As it happens I have ordered castings from Blackgates for the Clarkson Horizontal (metric edition), and am very impatiently awaiting their arrival. I managed to get them to send the drawings ahaed of time so I can study them, which I have done quite a lot!

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

A couple more points from all the previous posts;

Example models
To everyone who has taken the time to send links to kits, post pictures of catalogue excerpts, or even take pictures of their own creations, Thank you very much indeed. The elvel of care and details shown is exactly why I want to talk to “a bunch of old model engineers”

What machines to offer
I am open to any and all suggestions here. I like the suggestions from @jasonb, esepcially the more unusual designs. I think both the old and new have appeal, but my personal preference is to start with something eye catching like the….. I don;t know how to describe it, essentailly ahorizontal wheel with a small piston and ball bearing.
I also like the Rowalnd engines illustrated, and think these would have wide steam pumk appeal, a trend that continues to grow.
The ETW engines suggested by @grahammeek88282 look interesting as well, but I would see these as step up from entry level as they seem more involved with additonal parts such as timing belts, and your reference to silver soldering. Please do correct me if I am wrong

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Paul,

You said “I don’t have a definite business model in mind”.

I guess to home in on a specific business plan you need to identify the addressable markets that exist and that your resources can supply to and at an acceptable profit.

These days most companies address international markets since the internet has made that much easier.

Note: The USA (3rd largest market by population … https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/ ) is still Imperial but the younger folks there, and many older, are no doubt well enough versed in the Metric system.

It is a very good idea to get younger people interested in the hobby but the entry barriers can be high – machinery costs, training on those machines, and the will to spends hours alone in a workshop.

To build a model such as you describe, the buyer needs, or intends to have, access to the aforementioned suitable workshop – that in itself will be many times the price of the model kit.

Today’s youth are probably already pre-programmed to sit in front of a computer for hours at a time…not easy to undo.  I imagine the closest some get to a machine shop is via CAD or 3D printing.

I’ve always wondered why the hobbyist machine suppliers do not supply ‘Starter Machine Shops’ (eg lathe, mill, tooling etc) plus a Starter model kit …all at a discount and with an ‘account manager/technical help’ that will mother the (captive?) newcomer through the ups and downs. A complete machine shop would be a big financial outlay, but perhaps a payment schedule can be arranged, as could training.

Furthermore, annual competitions/exhibitions for best models of the year could be held at a central location…perhaps your factory.

Finally, I have been put off buying certain model kits since they are, for example, castings only….so I’d have to find and buy stock materials and fixings elswhere…quite a hassle for a part time modeler like me.

These are all very random thoughts from me, but I feel you need to offer a bit more than just an interesting kit to break in to the market.

I wish you all the best in your endeavor,

Ches

[paulmichael1084]

On paulmichael1084 Said:

The ETW engines suggested by @grahammeek88282 look interesting as well, but I would see these as step up from entry level as they seem more involved with additonal parts such as timing belts, and your reference to silver soldering. Please do correct me if I am wrong

ETW’s original Gemini Engine relied on aluminium and cast iron castings. These castings were not available at the time I decided to revisit the topic. This engine was also much larger than those that I have shown earlier in this post.

Which are also larger than my original bar-stock version (circa 1973) of ETW’s design. This too had a timing belt drive instead of the gear drive by ETW’s original design. This engine was constructed at the time on an Emco Unimat SL, my first lathe and was the second engine I had constructed.

Whilst I could have easily made the blocks for these latest engines out of aluminium it would have involved a lot of machining and at the time I wanted to try thin walled brass assemblies, silver soldered together, to improve my silver soldering skills.

Apart from the timing belts, bar stock, nuts and bolts, everything on these engines was made in-house.

Regards

Gray,

 

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

@grahammeek88282 Thanks for the extra information, and hat makes sense now. I was wondering why the block was brass, I assumed it was just an asthetic choice!
Really interesting there and what wonderful work you demonstrate. I don’t suppose you have drawings of the parts do you? (Incase that request raises a red flag I would never share or exploit any information given without obtaining you permission first, and would happily sign an NDA to that effect)

[Author]

Posts