Recommendations for first lathe

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

For anyone else doubting the small lathes can handle 50mm steel I just dug out the little Emco U3 and a bit of 50mm steel.

0.25mm facing cut

0.3mm deep turning cut

230M07 steel

50mm diameter

CCGT 060202 Insert

560rpm

So even with the little uns it is not going to take long to face and turn a steel wheel blank. Bit more work to bring the tread down to diameter, drill and ream a hole and face off the back. Add a little more if you want to make it look pretty with a recess, less work if using a casting or 3D metal print.

Bet use the hand to hand feed I start off with not the faster two hands on the handle I finish off with as it does not give a sgood a finish but OK for roughing out.

[lukeama123Participant @lukeama123]

Hello Dan,

Welcome to the forum!

Just to introduce ourselves, I’m from Amadeal, a company based in London. We sell lathes, milling machines, and other machining equipment, and one of our machines might suit your needs. We’ve noticed mention of 210 swing machines, which we do carry.

If you look below this thread, you should see our banner, and we also advertise in the Model Engineering Workshop magazine.

Cheers,
Luke
Amadeal Ltd.

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

<sarcasm>Pah! You can’t use carbide on a small lathe!
</sarcasm>

🙂

I have a Unimat and one of the jobs I use it for is turning crystals for my case making efforts.
Acrylic is simple I hear you say. Well yes, but the Acrylic blank is turned by sticking it with carpet tape to an old Mini caliper piston.
This gets faced every time so it runs true.

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Your mention of needing to turn upto 50mm diameter rather than 2″ suggests that you are more familiar with using metric than imperial. I also had a look on the 16mm Gauge website and the drawings there are mostly metric.

You may find it easier to purchase a machine with metric handwheels as it is one less complication for a beginner. The Sherline can be had in metric form and also very common for the far eastern machines to be in metric. Chances of finding second hand old iron in metric will be a lot less.

Interestingly a lot of the wheel sizes on the 16mm site are less than 50mm with 25-35mm being about average. Some of the locos are not much more than 150mm long, I’ve seen bigger clocks than that so well within the scope of the smaller lathes.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Therer are a couple more advantages of using carbide for the beginner with one of these small lathes.

1. It takes out the variables of being able to grind a HSS tool so you know problens should not be down to the cutting too. HSS can come later when it may be needed.

2. As a lot of the little lathes don’t have that slow a minimum speed if you want to do the odd item at a larger diameter you could well end up with a surface speed that is too high for HSS but will still be well within what Carbide is happy with. So no problems of taking the edge off that HSS tool that you strugged to get more or less right due to running it too fast.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

At least with a problem that can’t be fixed you have the option to return the lathe or a source of replacements. The OP has also said he has little knowledge to be able to pick out a good old lathe and from that I assume he will have problems rectifying any quirks too and unlikely to be able to return it to the seller.

I also worth pointing out to the OP that we do get the odd thread here asking about regrinding Myford beds, Problems with electrics like faulty Dewhurst switches or clapped out Crompton motors. Also not unknown for the chucks on secondhand machines to be bell mouthed and tailstock barrels worn and out of line. Does not affect them all just like not all far easten machines have problems.

As said and suggested by most here the Sherline, taig and Cowells are all better quality than a C0, 1 & 2 which I don’t think have been suggested.

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

I suggest going for a new lathe from a UK supplier.

If you are unlucky and there is a problem, you can expect them to sort it.

I bought a Wm290 lathe from Warco which had a strange fault. It vibrated at a particular speed. Warco arranged for someone to come and fix it. He spent most of the day here, but couldn’t resolve the issue.

Warco then replaced the lathe with a new one, which I am very happy with.

My first lathe as a beginner was a mini lathe which I bought from Amadeal. I later bought a collet chuck from them . This had unacceptable runout and after they had sent me a replacement which had the same problem I got a full refund.

So if you buy from one of the Uk suppliers you can expect good after sales service if needed.

I think for a beginner this is a major advantage over buying a used one.

Stuart

 

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

If it’s any help in making a decision I have a friend with no formal engineering training who builds lovely gauge one engines. on about his sixth I believe. He started with a good ML7, but partly for space reasons and partly because of the lowish top speed, sold this and bought a very lightly used Sherline. This suits him perfectly for his loco building, his only regret is he bought an imperial machine and would with hindsight have bought metric. Has since bought a Sherline mill so must be happy with his choice of maker.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Also beware of people claiming it’s somehow racist to notice that some Chinese products are crap. These people can sometimes think they are morally superior which is a dangerous mindset.

Let’s take one example of a lathe. A Chinese C0 versus an American Sherline. As a Brit, neither protects British industry. (An industry that pretty much doesn’t exist anymore anyway btw). So no vested interest.

On paper the C0 should be better. Cast iron vs aluminium construction. More powerful motor. Prism bed ways etc etc.

In reality it just isn’t. Anyone comparing the two would pick the Sherline because it has been made properly. Anyone with long term experience will also tell you the Sherline has superior reliability.

Imagine dismissing that valuable first hand experience because someone else wants to feel good about themselves by shouting racist at every opertunity. Unfortunately it’s the modern way.

It is absolutely valid to assume some countries produce better products than others based on previous reputation, and it’s fair to generalize, if you want a good pizza it’s probable the Italians do it best. Likewise, Indians probably make the best curries. The French, the best wine.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Before we get carried away I don’t want to see anymore mention of racism and that applies to Moderators as well as members.

But at least it is good to know that nobody here has specifically suggested the smaller far eastern machines to the OP. All I see is better quality small machines, larger far Eastern or good examples of second hand old iron.

[JAParticipant @ja]

This sort of question always throws up the same discussion to the same confussion. Everyone has his own ideas on what is the ideal lathe. Actually none is the ideal.

If you want the near ideal buy a Lorch or Schaublin. I not sure if you can buy either new now. Ten years ago you could have bought a new Hardinge HLV-H for around £80,000.

JA

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Schaublin was available new a couple of years ago. Probably not in budget tho…

 

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

The Chinese make excellent products of all kinds designed for their market niche.  From a quick search the C0 is now only available in the UK from Axminster online at a smidgen under 500 squids.  Mill Hill are the UK Sherline stockists but they are coy about prices.  From prices on the French stockists site and one in the USA a basic Sherline will be about double that price. The CLM500 mentioned in Mike’s Workshop comes from Machine Mart somewhere between those prices. His site is a testament to what can be done with it.  I’m sure it’s Chinese made as well.  I expect Sieg etc al make their products in factories equipped with extremely good automatic machinery that is also designed and made in China.  It’s also true that there was a lot of dross made for the hobby market over here and sold for example through Woolworths.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

If your lathe arrives tomorrow will you have a bench to put it on and another bench for manual work, and materials to work on and the plans for the loco? So let the advice settle down while you get that sorted and find surprise surprise 90% of the work on a loco does not involve a lathe. You have a year of non circular bits to occupy you.

Also just get a 3D printer for the moment (used Ender 3 not a fancy Qidi or Bamboo) and you can knock out a few wagons for your eventual loco to pull. You might then find some of the round metal bits can be metal printed anyway.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Millhill are not hiding prices, have a look at their price list. That is where I got the £1700 from in my first reply to this thread which is based on a 4410C package which would be the sort I thing I would go for. Still a few things you would really want to add to that so price £2000plus.

A year of just benchwork, some people must work slowly. 🥱 I’d have a whole loco done in a month, there are not many parts to these little things.

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

High Hollowpoint, I might get sent to the headmasters office for going off topic a bit, but, I don’t agree that the French make the best wine, in my opinion Italy make better wine and a lot more wine than just about anywhere else, but you have to go to Italy to taste their best, as they keep all their best in Italy. French wine is also better when in France, and I like theirs too, as well as many other places of our world, but it’s all about taste and preference, and it’s much the same about machinery.

Regards Nick.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Hollowpoint is right. The French make the best wine, Burgundies for a start, except for sparkling wines. Here the English now excel.

The headmaster could be busy.

JA

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Some of the nicest wine I’ve had was in Germany… It’s just not exported.

 

[southernchapParticipant @southernchap]

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

I am afraid I must disagree with Chis. An ML10 is an excellent machine. I have tried one of the more expensive Chinese mini lathes and there is no comparison. For that size lathe, an ML10 is hard to beat. Certainly better value for money than just about anything else in that class.

The “defects” that Chris mentions in his criticism of the ML10 are of an absolutely trivial nature.

Andrew.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Nice one Jason! Best of both worlds.

Andrew.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Pros and cons, as i see them,  of buying a lathe from different sources.

Direct from China.

Pro Cheaper

Con Expensive to ship back and possibly poor support if faulty.

UK Supplier

Con. More costly

Pro  Support, and spares available if required. A faulty machine machine can be rejected and replaced fairly easily.

Quality improved as the manufacturers became aware of market requirements. They found that unreliable, very poorly made machines get a bad reputation and don’t sell. UK importers showed manufacturers that the market wanted good value for money.  So quality and back up improved.

New “British” lathe.

Pro New, Supplier support

Con Unlikely to have actually been made in UK.

Pre owned British machine.

Pro Well made WHEN NEW. Some will might have been properly refurbished.

Con   May well be worn now. Support and spares may no longer available. The refurbishment might be no more than shiny paint on a badly worn machine.

You need to know what to look for and how to check, or have someone who can do this for you.

What about me?

Started with a used Myford ML7, Bought from an Engineer friend who did a little machine tool dealing on the side. So a pretty good example.

Later, up graded to a larger, more comprehensive Far Eastern lathe.

Both satisfactory, but the new oriental machine was larger, more rigid, comprehensively equipped, and suits my purposes better.

As in everything, “You pays makes your choice and pays your money”

If in doubt, pay a little more for a machine which is a little bigger and more comprehensive than you first think.

Your horizons will expand, in expectations, even if not in size.

When you get the machine, “waste” material by just cutting it, to learn the basics.

Start by making simple tools, such as Centre Height gauge, Sliding Die and Sliding Tap holder, Mandrel handle. Simple to make, and will provide experience, and confidence which will stand you in good stead, because you have an understanding of the basics. And you will have simple tools which can be used for years to do other jobs.

Buy and study some books on lathework.

Stan Bray “Basic Lathework”, (45 in the Workshop Practice Series) or his “The Compact Lathe” if you can find a copy

Harold Hall “Lathework, A Complete Course” (34 in the W P S.)

You will find a set of Zeus Charts useful. Still using my dirty, dog eared ones from 1958!

For smaller sizes you will probably be able to survive using taps and |dies.

IF you want to screwcut, Martin Cleeve’s “Screwcutting in the Lathe” would help, as would Brian Wood’s more expensive “Gearing lathes for Screwcutting) These will show how to calculate and arrange gear trains to cut various pitches., Thread forms are something else to learn about, and add to your widening knowledge of machining.

You will, eventually, be surprised by what you can do, once you own, and can operate, a lathe!

Howard

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