Drill chuck manufacturer’s coding

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Can anyone confirm what version of a Bison drill chuck we’re looking at in the picture? There are two versions, afaik, of Bison 1-13mm J6 keyless drill chucks:

5133-13J6 KL.I

5133-13J6 KL.II

I ordered the (more expensive) first of these (from a long established UK supplier), but received the chuck pictured.

I cannot see any Bison literature explaining the coding I have on mine and which of the two chucks above it is supposed to be.

Any help appreciated.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Page 58 lists two types of the 5133 chucks Precision & Standard, I know what I would bet on the P that is on your chuck standing for and I expect the precision one costs more than standard

https://bison-chuck.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Spindle_Tooling_and_Quickchange_Toolposts.pdf

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Thanks for your answer, Jason.

The only snag is the MPN (or type) 5133-13-J6P is nowhere on the UK supplier’s site I bought from, or any other UK supplier’s site.

The Bison MPN/type given on the page I bought from (and on other UK suppliers’ sites) is 5133-13-J6KLI (as opposed to 5133-13-J6KLII, which is the standard precision version, not the high precision one).

So, where does 5133-13-J6 P come from? Is it the new Bison MPN/type designation for 5133-13-J6KLI or for 5133-13-J6KLII, or for neither? Internet searches aren’t proving fruitful.

I’m in communication with the supplier I bought from but replies so far haven’t got to the bottom of the problem.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

First result searching for the bison code 80000070 from their pdf took me to cutwell who if you zoom in on the image have the “I” on the chuck for that SKU number. Cutwells link to the product pdf is a page from the same catalogue that I linked to.

https://www.cutwel.co.uk/1-13mm-precision-keyless-drill-chuck-j6-mounting-5133-series-bison-800000705?srsltid=AfmBOopduebON5qdT9PgoLHOh_VF9F2AzYH1ITr5c0bt6e7fw-v6NLps

Maybe email Bison and see if they are one in the same or you got a product marked for a different market that is still the same.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Yes, though unhelpfully the standard version of the 1-13 J6 (Cutwel SKU800000706) shows the same image of a B16 version with “I” not “II” at the end.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

precyzja is polish for Precision so I think Jason wins + I have no idea why anyone would think the internet is up to date and a photo is just an image that won’t be updated when the part number changes either.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The J6 probably indicates the taper in the chuck body and that of the arbor that carries it.

The 13 indicate the maximum size that the chuck is intended to hold.

As jason says, the P is likely to indicate “Precision” as opposed to nornal “run of the mill” chucks.

Howard

[Dave Halford]

On Dave Halford Said:

precyzja is polish for Precision so I think Jason wins + I have no idea why anyone would think the internet is up to date and a photo is just an image that won’t be updated when the part number changes either.

It’s not just generic images we’re dealing with, Dave, but text, corroborated on practically all sites where this chuck is sold, including on Bison’s own site, and contradicted on none of them, yet contradicted by the single instance of what ended up in my hand. This doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to have whatever threshold for proof you wish, of course.

And I’m not sure how you reached the conclusion that I’ve assumed the Internet is up to date. I clearly indicated a suspicion that the coding on my chuck is new. It’s just not certain at this stage what it means.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If you copy and paste that code form your link to the Bison US site into the same sites search box you get zero results, could just be google throwing up an old page. Same pasting it to any other Bison sites such as EN/EU.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

This may be an old page as well. Problem is, if it is, where is the up-to-date one?

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Page 58 lists two types of the 5133 chucks Precision & Standard, I know what I would bet on the P that is on your chuck standing for and I expect the precision one costs more than standard

https://bison-chuck.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Spindle_Tooling_and_Quickchange_Toolposts.pdf

As I read it, the 5133 series have the lower guaranteed runout of 0.04mm
whereas the 5134 series are 0.1mm, though this range doesn’t list a J6 taper fit

Bill

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Bill, it’s certainly far from clear from that page, isn’t it?

But the 5133 series has two broad categories within it: standard accuracy (no greater than 0.15 TIR) and precision (no greater than 0.04 TIR).

The 5134 is a different class of drill chuck, all members of which are claimed to have no greater than 0.1 TIR.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

The Bison US site further complicates matters, the two products’ pages
5133-13-J6 KL.I https://www.bison-america.com/produkt-59222-.html
Mfr Part Number: 0642151332403
Part number: 7-051-338
Mounting Type: Jacobs Socket
Precision Class: High Precision

5133-13-J6 KL.II https://www.bison-america.com/produkt-59217-.html
Mfr Part Number: 0642151332416
Part number: 7-051-138
Mounting Type: Jacobs Socket
Precision Class: Standard Precision

Both refer to the same catalogue page https://www.bison-america.com/pdf/Chapter_5/5_36.pdf
Though the runout, as one might expect, is given in thou.

So at first glance, it looks like the US market label the chucks as 5133 KL.l & KL.ll
for precision and standard respectively, but only lists J tapers for either, which the diagram shows as dimension K

whereas the EU/UK market labels them as;
5133 & 5134 respectively, but lists J & B tapers for precision chucks (5133), but only B & Threaded for the standard precision range (5134)

Ergo, EU market 5133 seems to be precision

Bill

[Bill Phinn]

On Bill Phinn Said:

Bill, it’s certainly far from clear from that page, isn’t it?

But the 5133 series has two broad categories within it: standard accuracy (no greater than 0.15 TIR) and precision (no greater than 0.04 TIR).

The 5134 is a different class of drill chuck, all members of which are claimed to have no greater than 0.1 TIR.

It looks like we were typing at the same time.
Hopefully my second reply will add some clarity, but it might depend from whom you ordered your chuck.
If it’s UK stock the 5133 looks to be precision, if US stock then it could be either, but I would expect to see the L.l or L.ll suffix.
If it came in a box, what do the part numbers on that say, or indeed what does the invoice say?

Bill

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

 

whereas the EU/UK market labels them as;
5133 & 5134 respectively, but lists J & B tapers for precision chucks (5133), but only B & Threaded for the standard precision range (5134)

Ergo, EU market 5133 seems to be precision

Bill

I don’t read it that way, as Bill P says the 5133 is avaiable in two spec Precision (P or K1) and Standard (S? or K11)

With the K possibly being First and Second. The 5134 is a different chuck entrely. I’d just email Bison on Poland and ask them.

 

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Jason is of course quite correct, I misread something, even though I posted a screenshot.
Need more coffee.
Oddly I did go to Specsavers last week, but maybe need to learn to read properly as well.
I was concentrating on the two dial gauges, rather than reading the tables as I should have done

Bill

[Bill Phinn]

On Bill Phinn Said:

On Dave Halford Said:

precyzja is polish for Precision so I think Jason wins + I have no idea why anyone would think the internet is up to date and a photo is just an image that won’t be updated when the part number changes either.

It’s not just generic images we’re dealing with, Dave, but text, corroborated on practically all sites where this chuck is sold, including on Bison’s own site, and contradicted on none of them, yet contradicted by the single instance of what ended up in my hand. This doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to have whatever threshold for proof you wish, of course.

And I’m not sure how you reached the conclusion that I’ve assumed the Internet is up to date. I clearly indicated a suspicion that the coding on my chuck is new. It’s just not certain at this stage what it means.

 

Bill,

Jasons first link is easy as the date is part of the file name Sept 2019

Peak 4’s link as file name Sept 2021

 

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

It turns out what we’ve apparently been dealing with here is not the Internet not being up to date but an opposite kind of problem, namely the Internet’s massive blindspot in respect of pre-web and early web digital data. Chucks with the P or S termination are referenced nowhere online because that is Bison’s old and obsolete system of marking these chucks. I don’t know how old, but the box my chuck came in has what may be a manufacturing date on it of 08/02. 2002? 2008? Or neither? Take your pick.

I contacted Bison America yesterday before Bill peak4 posted and they couldn’t help me further except to say they only go off their part number system (the numbers Bill highlighted on the left of the page: 7-051-138 and 7-051-338). They got things the wrong way round, though, saying the standard chuck ended 138 and the precision chuck 338.

Bison UK were more helpful, in telling me that the P and S marking system was abandoned some time ago because it was felt to be less universally intelligible than I and II. Neither of the two big UK suppliers I contacted knew anything about this. One of them (not the supplier I bought from) stated the chucks ending “I” were the standard grade and “II” the precision grade. So much for the new system’s intelligibility!

Assuming the supplier had got things right (thankfully, mine did), below is a picture (courtesy of Bison UK) of what my chuck would have looked like if it had been made more recently than it evidently was. Only remaining question is what does ZM stand for?

Thanks to everyone for your contributions.

[Author]

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