Milling machine & Shaper query

[swood1Participant @swood1]

[swood1Participant @swood1]

Hi all,

I have always fancied owning a shaper machine; I like the simplicity of the machine and have a few projects that I could see would suit it better than my Mill. But I already have a small mill, I was wondering do some of you out there actually have both machines and more importantly do you actually use them?

Would the shaper be a waste of already lacking space…

Kind Regards

Steven

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I have a Boxford 8" shaper and a small milling machine (Emco FB2 clone). I got the shaper first, because it was available first at a price that suited my budget.

I tend to use the shaper to hog off metal before moving over to the mill, as it can shift metal more quickly with inexpensive & easily hand ground tools than the 2MT spindle milling machine. But there is also the "fun" factor – it is rather satisfying to use. It is doubtless capable of much more than I have done with it to date.

Would I have bought it if I had found the milling machine first ? Probably, just for the "fun" factor alone. But, while I am getting pushed for space, I don't yet feel it is taking up a corner that I would rather use for something else.

Nigel B.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Steven

I had made my Dore Westbury mill when I bought the shaper, an Elliott 10. . It has done some useful work as mgmbuk has described and I am fortunate enough to have the space available.

Mine has the satisfying sound of a washing machine when it is running and just making a flat surface is almost mesmeric. It might be a luxury if your space is tight, but for doing the grunt work on a casting for example it is hard to beat.

Regards Brian

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

With a hand powered Shaper, like the Adept No.2, you won't hog off large bits of metal.

It is a small machine, and very low powered. But it can do things that a Mill cannot, such as cutting internal keyways, or even internal splines or gears.

It will generate flat surfaces because the end result is the combination of the tool moving in two different planes as it cuts. A mill that is even slightly out of true will generate one or more shallow hollow grooves.

Sharpening the tool is far easier than trying to sharpen an End Mill. It is just like a Lathe tool, so can be a form tool, capable of easy modification, if so needed.

A vertical Mill is the machine for producing a slot, or keyway, with a radius at the end..

Horses for courses again

Howard

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I have finally, in the last day or so, got my milling attachment for my lathe up and running

(will put pics up if I can ever find my wee camera)

Initial testing is looking really good compared to a milling slide and accuracy looks exceptional for a bespoke Ady item

Using it has also reminded me why I detest milling and would much rather use the shaper for doing a job if I have a choice, my biggest gripe being your reliance upon complicated and expensive cutting bits to carry out even the most basic simple jobs

A shaper can hog a job virtually for free, it sounds great as it shaves metal away, and they have good accuracy

but of course every now and then you will be forced to take the milling route, plus a decent mill makes a good drill too

GL

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Agree entirely with Howard. I like my handraulic shaper for the things it can do – like internal keyways. But it is never going to compete with a powered machine.

For most things I do, a larger shaper would be good but I don’t think it will happen. I might progress to a small powered machine as another ‘toy’.

I use my lathe, both mills and the Drummond shaper. Not universally because the particular machine is the best/easiest to get the job done.

If milling attachments were so good for everyone, mills would not have become so popular. People use what they have and modellers will make models according to the size of machines they have – although smaller models can be made on a larger machine, but not so easy the other way round. Only you would know the answer to your question.

I might like to add a surface grinder, but it would not get much use. But that would not necessarily stop me if a suitable one came up for sale.🙂

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by Steven Woodward on 27/01/2020 16:05:59:

I have always fancied owning a shaper machine; I like the simplicity of the machine and have a few projects that I could see would suit it better than my Mill. But I already have a small mill, I was wondering do some of you out there actually have both machines and more importantly do you actually use them?

Would the shaper be a waste of already lacking space.

Seems a simple enough question Steven

Well, I have two shapers and two mills (all four of which I use) so I seem qualified to answer your question.

Logically, the answer is that you do not need a Shaper – especially if you are tight on space. With a mill and a lathe you can already do (almost) everything that you can do with a shaper.

However, the reason I use my shapers (quite apart from the great finish and simple tooling) is that I enjoy doing so. They are somewhat addictive and I often find myself 'shaping' when I probably (logically) shouldn't be.

So the answer is that whilst you don't need a Shaper – it sounds like you simply want one (which is an entirely different matter!).

Please also note that (in my view) a hand shaper is a different beast to a powered one – and in my case I use them for very different kinds of work. As Howard says, you will not be able to (quckly/easily) remove large amounts of metal with a hand shaper, although you can certainly do good/accurate/delicate work on smaller parts with one. You really need a powered shaper to make any sensible comparisons with a milling machine. I generally use my hand shaper in preference to hand tools – as I'm simply not good enough with 'saw & file' for some things….

Regards,

IanT

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

I would say get the shaper if you fancy it. I had a Boxford shaper and a milling machine in the past and did use it. It is a nice machine to use, quite quiet and sort of peaceful – there is something mesmerising about watching it work. However when I moved house and now have a smaller workshop I chose to keep the milling machine and sell the shaper.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Last year I bought an 8" Boxford shaper to accompany by Dore Westbury and Centec 2B mills.
It does get used now, and it will get used more as and when I get more workshop time.

Tooling is cheap and easily re-sharpened.

I know of an Elliott 10M which might be coming up for sale, though I don't thing it's been used for a year or two.
I guess that would depend on your budget and locality.

If you're any where near Buxton, you're welcome to drop in and have a look round my Boxford, though it's certainly not for sale.

Bill

p.s. Hello and welcome by the way.

Edited By peak4 on 27/01/2020 19:51:38

[Peter Simpson 1Participant @petersimpson1]

I to have a Boxford 8" shaping machine and Tom Senior milling machine, I usually use the shaping machine to reduce bar stock to the correct usable size. It gives a fabulous finish and is very enjoyable to use, It will remove 0.5mm cuts on BMS with ease, although I saw somebody on here a while ago stating his could cut 2.0mm cuts on BMS,,,,,,not hope in hell.

When I was an apprentice at ICI Billingham many years ago I watched a large Shaping machine in the mill wrights shop throw huge red hot cuttings all over the workshop. Happy days.

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

I have vertical and horizontal mills and an Elliott 10M shaper.

Each gets used regularly depending on the job in hand.

I bought the shaper as we were not allowed near the ones at school due to their inherent danger. I always said I'd get one and learn to use it.

The finish beats milling and is the ideal precursor to surface grinding.

Buy one and enjoy a cuppa as it cuts with that previously described washing machine sound.

Mick

[IanTParticipant @iant]

My Acorntools (Atlas) 7" can rough up to about 20thou (0.5mm) using a fine feed without sounding too uncomfortable Peter – so very similar to your 8" Boxford I think.

A 24" stroke Hydraulic would be very nice to peel metal back with (it wouldn't even break a sweat with 2mm) but I think it would probably create a black-hole in the floor of my Shed and then promptly disappear into it….

IanT

[swood1Participant @swood1]

Some interesting feedback here, I think the general consensus is that if you can afford it and you have a use and room for it then go for it. The idea of just sharpening a bit of HSS and using this for cutting metal sounds ideal to me..

Now I need to measure my garage workshop…. I am thinking I could fit it in the end by the garage door but I was trying to avoid blocking this entrance up (although I hardly use it).

We shall see.

Steve

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Use the fancy HSS if you have it, like M35 cobalt HSS

Fancy HSS is great for slow speed stuff and holds its edge much better with slow speed cutting

both for lathe turning and shaping jobs

GL

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Steven;

Like IanT's wants vs. needs; I've had two shapers in my workshop. Now I have none.

The last to go was a Drummond hand shaper. Another shaper came past my nose, and I turned it down.

My reason is that, in my limited workshop time, milling machines make so much more sense, especially when one considers the space taken.

I sat down and wondered: "What do I want to do – use random bits of machinery for it's own sake, or use machinery to make things?"

I also built a Worden T&C grinder from Hemingway, which works well for sharpening everything from milling cutters to drill bits to lathe tools.

Like everything, it's all what you are happiest doing!

[SaxalbyParticipant @saxalby]

I have a Boxford shaper and a Tom Senior Mill. Use the shaper a lot for key slots in gears and pulleys etc. Also love the very fine finish that you can get on steel, almost a ground finish.

Would never part with the shaper.

[BufferParticipant @buffer]

Mine shoots swarf across the garage that leaves a very satisfying trail of smoke lingering in the air like shooting stars. Apart from this its a bit of a pain to set up as I find it much quicker and easier to use a spinning edge finder on the mill. And a decent fly cutter on my mill using a lathe tool seems to make a flat surface just as well but in a fraction of the time.

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Spent a few very enjoyable hours yesterday playing with my Perfecto 7 inch shaper, bought it new back in the seventies and apart from a repaint into a Myford grey colour it is absolutely original. The job this time was a pair of steam chests for a 2.5 gauge loco, they only had about fifty thou on each face to come off so a roughing cut all round of about thirty thou and then two finishing cuts, no time wasted because while shaper was doing its thing I was sharpening a few milling cutters. For larger jobs I also have an Elliott 10m, gives a beautiful finish for port faces etc, it’s got a three phase motor but runs beautifully on a transwave converter.

[swood1Participant @swood1]

It sounds like people like their shaper machines….

Out of interest what is the sort of footprint required for an 8" shaper like a Boxford and how heavy are they?

Regards

Steven

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

+1 on "most" of the comments above.

A mill even with a fly cutter can never replicate the finish a shaper can achieve with the right ground tool, especially a shear tool taking a final couple of thou off.

Internal keyways and gear cutting are also a boon with the shaper.

It may often be slower vs a mill on certain procedures, but it is a helluva lot more fun.

I get immense enjoyment from operating the lathe and the shaper, but a mill is always a "do i have to?", "i suppose i must", type job, i find a lot of common, simple milling operations almost boring. The lathe and shaper – never.

I note there are a lot of Tom Senior mill and Boxford shaper owners above, great minds think alike, perhaps we should start a society/club?

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Posted by Peter Simpson 1 on 27/01/2020 20:13:52:

I to have a Boxford 8" shaping machine and Tom Senior milling machine, I usually use the shaping machine to reduce bar stock to the correct usable size. It gives a fabulous finish and is very enjoyable to use, It will remove 0.5mm cuts on BMS with ease, although I saw somebody on here a while ago stating his could cut 2.0mm cuts on BMS,,,,,,not hope in hell.

When I was an apprentice at ICI Billingham many years ago I watched a large Shaping machine in the mill wrights shop throw huge red hot cuttings all over the workshop. Happy days.

Sigh.

I presume you meant me. Again. Here's some proof. Boxford 8" with a 3/4hp motor, single phase. Even the owners manual states it will rip 3mm DOC off.

My suggestion is don't baby the machine or learn some proper tool grinds.

The above were 1.5mm cuts minimum (0.060&quot, maybe 2mm (0.80&quot, can't remember, but the steel was nasty flame cut no-name. Stroke was the full 8" and slowest speed with a light feed.

Note the flame/oxy cut billet below.

Same stuff finished off with a shear tool. Notice the difference in swarf with pic no. 1 above.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Steven Woodward on 28/01/2020 22:42:07:

It sounds like people like their shaper machines….

Out of interest what is the sort of footprint required for an 8" shaper like a Boxford and how heavy are they?

Regards
Steven

Steven, the Boxford chip tray is 18 ½" x 34", obviously that's a bit bigger than the cabinet floor footprint.

On the long side, the ram needs a further 7" beyond the tray as it slides back and forth.

The manual doesn't seem to give a weight, but I moved one myself in a van.
It was already partially stripped down, also separated from the cabinet, and I had a hand to load up.
Unloaded OK on my own, but I do have an elevating hydraulic table/trolley on wheels.

Reassembled OK alone, and added a VFD in the main cabinet. I retained the original mains push buttons, but removed the contact breaker behind them and replaced with microswitches to control the VFD.
N.B. make sure the motor runs in the correct direction; the cutting stroke should be slower than the return stroke.

Bill

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

If you have room for both mill and shaper, then go for the shaper. All the advantages enumerated above and much easier to cut dovetails than with a mill!

Andrew.

[Peter Simpson 1Participant @petersimpson1]

Well just to check I set a 2" square by 6" long piece of BMS up today. Selected the lowest pulley speed. VSD at 50Hz and had a go with a 2mm DOC. As soon as the cutting tool got to its full 2mm cut the machine stalled ? God knows what an 3mm DOC would have achieved. I would be interested to see how your cutting tool was ground. I may not have the correct tool shape. More than willing to have another go with a different cutting tool.

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