Electric vehicles

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Sorry .. can't restrain myself…

One of the biggest emerging car growth markets is China. And one of the places with greatest pollution. Why we've allowed china to take over all our manufacturing is a diferent argument but with the economic power they have and no need to worry about patent infringements or reverse engineering they are maing great strides.

A top of their range XPeng Motors car (a fusion of Tesla and Lucid Air design styles) comes with 5 radar systems, a full complement of ultrasonics and 14 high def cameras and two internal screens – 15" for general use and 10" for car function displays and a 500mile battery range and all for £38K (in china). Base model is £28K.

Doubtless they'll be on ebay next year (buy pays return postage?)

At the other end of the spectrum the Fiat 500e cheapest costs £20K with about 100mile range ona 24KW battery or 200 mile range on the 42KW pack for 200 mile range @ £23.5K. Assuming you can acutally cram yourself into one! But it'd be fine for a city dweller and the 100 mile range will only take 3hrs to recharge on a home 7KW charge point or 6 hrs off a 13amp circuit – so lots of cable reels dangling down the sides of high-rise city blocks….

pgk

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by J Hancock on 22/11/2020 09:38:19:

A last point, for the accountants.

Energy from wind is free , yes ?

Or, if not free , then after all maintenance costs have been paid , free, yes ?

IF that is not the case , then how can any of the Green Policy be justified ?

Apparently the wind turbine towers off the coast have diesel generators within to get them started so there is a brown tinge to green.

Paul.

[steamdaveParticipant @steamdave]

Electric vehicles are all well and good for urban areas, but for rural areas like the west of Ireland are totally impractical. At the present time there are few charging points and those that there are don't always work or are occupied when required by Biddy doing her shopping.

Public transport is non-existent in rural Ireland. I would have to walk 2-1/2 miles to the nearest bus stop. Great in the pouring rain and even better when going home again with the shopping!

It will take a sea-change in attitudes to get Paddy the farmer to change his Toyota Landcruiser for an electric alternative (Is there one?), especially as a few years ago the Irish government persuaded people to go for diesel cars. Diesel fuel is approximately 10c/litre cheaper than petrol. (Locally diesel = 1.15 EU litre).

There are a lot of old cars on the roads here and with combustion engines, they somehow keep on going. What happens to the batteries in electric vehicles when they are beyond their useful life? The cost of a replacement battery presently is uneconomic when put into an older vehicle, and to my knowledge they cannot be recycled.

As for the infrastructure, who is going to pay for the many, many thousands of tonnes of copper and other metals required to install the charging networks? You can bet your life, the cost will be passed on to the consumer in higher electricity charges and taxes. Never mind the pollution, invest in copper mining companies and make your fortune!

Dave
The Emerald Isle

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Batteries can be recycled and replaced Link

and the newer ones will be cobalt free.

Getting farmers to change their ways is always harder with the smaller farms but I'm sure Paddy knows how best to claim his subsidies and incentives just like Jones the sheep can.

Electric pick-ups are off the drawing board and prototyped already. Even Paddy might be persuaded when he finds he can plug in his 120 & 240 v power-tools in without needing to cart the genny. Cybertruck is quoted as 500 mile range and a power roof over the flatbed and security cameras to stop Mick nicking stuff…

pgk

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by J Hancock on 22/11/2020 09:38:19:

A last point, for the accountants.

Energy from wind is free , yes ?

Or, if not free , then after all maintenance costs have been paid , free, yes ?

IF that is not the case , then how can any of the Green Policy be justified ?

You have to compare all the costs when alternatives are considered.

Open cast is cheaper than deep coal, which involves tunnels, winding, conveyor belts, and lots of people etc. Most UK coal was mined, the deepest shaft being 1400 metres in Lancashire. Geology makes open cast more practical abroad where thick seams are close to the surface. Even so extraction involves stripping £millions of tons of top surface to reach the coal underneath.

Once open to the air open cast coal is stripped with massive machinery before cleaning and sifting. Cheapest way to move it on land is by rail and then by sea. For example, coking coal dug at the Goonyella Riverside Mine in Queensland is transferred about 50km across Australia by narrow gauge railway to a purpose built coaling port at Hay Point. Hay Point is 6000 hectares in size and exports 32 million tons of coal a year. The coal likely goes to China, about 6500km away. In that case, the ore carrier does a round trip of 13000km per cargo, and the coal may be moved again by rail inside China.

So we have a strip mine with heavy machinery, a significant narrow gauge railway with engines and trucks, a large purpose built seaport, and bulk ore carriers moving heavy coal over long distances. All this requiring people, maintenance and replacement of worn-out equipment. And the whole lot is junk when the local coal basin is exhausted.

This compares with an unmanned wind farm transferring electricity by cable almost directly to the customer, most of the way using existing infrastructure. The wind may be unreliable in the short-term, but it never runs out. Yes the wind farm has to be built and maintained, but its substantially cheaper than coal. And cleaner. It's particularly economic in the UK because most of our coal is imported from Columbia, Russia and the USA.

The main problem with green energy is matching demand and production. Coal can be stacked in a yard and burnt when needed: it's easy. Wind and solar are cheap but they deliver at inconvenient times and electricity can't just be shovelled into a heap and used later. The problem is only partly fixed by building wildly scattered wind farms. Although unlikely to be a dead calm off Cornwall and Scapa Flow at the same time, it's possible. The issue isn't the cost of green power, it's making it available when needed. The problem is storage. Many options such as batteries, hydroelectric, steam, molten metals, electrolysis, ammonia, and compressed or liquid air etc. They all work, but none of them are the simple obvious answer, so the future is likely to be a mixture. Interesting times ahead.

Dave

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

pgk,

Interesting comment in that article "(I normally charge at home and work with a 100 amp HPWC)" where I live the main company fuse is 100 amp. What amperage is your home charger?

Also interesting from the fella that left his for a week with 32 miles in the battery, when he returned it had dropped to 12 and now it won't take a full charge. How long can you leave yours to its own devices without being plugged in, without risk? When I was working proper I was out of the country for a month at a time, could I park a Tesla at the airport unplugged for a month and get a 70 mile trip home on my return?

Paul.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

S.O.D,

The issue of cost of green electricity may not be an issue in the static domestic or industrial setting but it is an issue to use it in a mobile setting like vehicles or boats. The cost of the electricity at the static transfer point can be cheap but the cost of the equipment required to put it on wheels is significant.

Wind farms also are not completely unmanned, all the coastal wind farms have significant maintenance bases with daily deliveries of techs to the turbines. It would be interesting to compare man hours per kWh between a conventional power plant and a wind farm I have no idea what that may be but would agree it's very likely lower for wind but large scale wind is definitely not fit and forget. Probably the least labour intensive post commissioning is solar?

As you rightly say matching generation with demand and the need for storage is the difficult bit and that is where the costs rack up.

Paul.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Ah well, if it all goes wrong and all the fossile fuel vehicles have been scrapped, there is always the horse.

Unless the Belgians have eaten all those too.

[mattParticipant @matt27093]

biggest problem as I see it is lack of infrastructure combined with range/charging times. As a service engineer I regularly do 400+ mile round trips in a single day. So I'd probably need to recharge at some point during day. At moment very few factories I visit have charging points and those that do are invariable occupied by senior managements teslas. So I would be dependent on public charging points and having to wait an hour or two whilst car charges. Either we pass on costs of waiting time to customer or absorb it. Either is going to be damaging to the business.

For electric cars to be a viable alternative we need to see ranges roughly doubling and charging times getting down to 15-20 min region. Plus a massive increase in charging points and generating capacity to support it. Bear in mind that a significant proportion of housing in this country doesn't have off street parking so overnight charging isnt possible.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 22/11/2020 12:20:46:

pgk,

Interesting comment in that article "(I normally charge at home and work with a 100 amp HPWC)" where I live the main company fuse is 100 amp. What amperage is your home charger?

Also interesting from the fella that left his for a week with 32 miles in the battery, when he returned it had dropped to 12 and now it won't take a full charge. How long can you leave yours to its own devices without being plugged in, without risk? When I was working proper I was out of the country for a month at a time, could I park a Tesla at the airport unplugged for a month and get a 70 mile trip home on my return?

Paul.

'standard' domstic home charger is 7'ish KW usually on a 32A circuit. Newest Teslas UK (can't speak for the others) can take upto 11KW A/C if chargers happen to be on 3-phase. To be correct the car has the charger on-board and the wall unit is a just a fancy socket/switch and some folk use a so-called granny lead off a 16A/32A commando socket but reasons why that's not recommended.

My house domestic supply is 100A and from that i have a 50A line to sub-board in barn and a 60A line to sub-board in hobby shed but common sense applies as to how much I plug in where and when… not a good idea to stick the immersion, oven, hob, car, welder, washing machine etc on all at the same time and then plug in a kettle and electric fire and a cement mixer…

If the car is left alone then it goes into a sleep mode and if left for longer goes into a very deep sleep.. at that point it uses 1-2 miles of 'range' per day , less than 0.5-1 KWH. However if you leave it running it's sentry mode which goes via the main computer system in there then it draws a constant 300watts and if you keep waking it up remotely to check it or have it paging information to one of the web-based monitoring systems some folk use then it will use up power. Obviously it also depends on the charge you have when you arrive at the airport. If you arrive near full (nearby top-up) then a month asleep should be OK. Certainly 2 weeks would be fine. HOWEVER times are changing and several airport parking services will top the car up for you if pre-arranged – a service that will be more widely available. The car's systems are wise enough to turn all non-essential functions off at 20% remaining (such as sentry mode) so a good chance you'ld still get away with a month at the airport without the car being 'bricked' if you foolishly left everything running – so long as there was somewhere very nearby to get a top-up. But not recommended.

Then again airport parking fees are high enough that it's usually just as cheap/easy to take a taxi there and leave car plugged in at home.

Matt

There will always be difficult cases. The model3 with 75KWh battery and 300+ mile range if you topped it off to 100% before leavng home (set it to 90% overnight and finish the charge while dressing/brekkie so it's not at 100% too long and use shore power to get it toasty warm inside before you set off – all done via a phone app)

200mile each way is 3.5-4hrs+ Most folk need a comfort break. Us older gentlemen need that scarily often these days when peeing on the hard shoulder is frowned on. The less charge remaining the faster it can be topped up. In the case of the model3 on the newest v3 superchargers you can pull 250KW when nearly empty and about 100KW at half full. So 20%-60% charge (a quick 120miles extra) can be done inside your 20 mins. Obviously that depends on location of suitable chargers en route. Equally as you concede more and more businesses are putting chargers in for staff use but they are usually 7KW slow jobbies – around 30miles range per hour on the model3. Heck you can even run a cable reel out and get 2KW or 9 miles range per hour if on-site for a while and desperate enough. It; winter time that knackers the theoretical ranges.

Good news, though, the cyber-truck is due out in a year or so UK (next year US) and should have 500 mile theoretical range and more than enough room for any service gear or if you save your pennies then when the Roadster comes out you'll have 600 miles range , a huge outstanding loan and can burn any supercar off at the lights. And doubtless an eyewatering insurance rate.

Or if not a speed merchant then the Tesla Semi (if you want to drive a tug unit and have HGV) will do 600+ miles unladen or 500 miles with a load and keep your speed down to 60mph max. Stick the trailer on it with a conversion and you'ld be able to live on site.

pgk

[Steve Skelton 1Participant @steveskelton1]

Some were mentioning that gas boilers and gas networks are due to be ripped out. This is probably a premature statement as the industry are looking at introducing hydrogen into the main gas network with a long term potential switch-over to a non-carbon based gas system.

The government just hasn't woken up to this yet!!

See https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/new-technology/hydrogen-can-be-distributed-in-britains-gas-networks-new-study-finds/

and

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/worcester-boschs-hydrogen-boiler-prototype-enters-first-field-trial

Steve

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Steve Skelton 1 on 22/11/2020 17:07:10:

… industry are looking at introducing hydrogen into the main gas network …

Town Gas, which I remember all too well, gosh I must be old, was mostly Hydrogen, Carbon Monoxide, and Methane. So much Hydrogen in the mix, it was lighter than air. A friend and I made a kind of Zeppelin out of plastic bags and inflated it with gas in my bedroom, at which point we discovered it at 8' by 4' it was too big to go out the window.

My father arrived looking for the smelly leak. I don't think I ever saw him more angry. Looking back I suppose he had a point! A bedroom full of poisonous explosive gas was a bit dangerous.

Dave

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I guess a lot of us remember the switch-over to North Sea gas. One of the problems of switching back to 'town gas' equivalent is that hydrogen is a small molecule that will find a lot of leaks that were ignored because the large methane molecule can't get through.

Pre WWI my great uncle contracted with his mother in their then rural home to supply her kitchen with gas. Went ok for a few months then the shed exploded. He worked with semi-rigid airships during the war so I gues the fascination with gas continued for a while.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

A letter in todays Sunday Telegraph. A punter writes he bought a 3 year old Nissan Leaf in 2015. Now it has a range of just 40 miles, down from 70 in the time he has owned it (seriously, why would you buy a car with a range of just 70 miles? Beyond me).

Last year he got a quote from the Portsmouth dealer for a new battery at £7500. He declined and regretted it now, as this year the Gateshead dealer said Nissan no longer exchange batteries and a new one would cost £19000; the dealer in Swindon quoted £22500.

If that is par for the course then second hand electric cars are way out of my league; who in their right mind would pay that much for a battery for an 8 year old car? As the writer says – at that cost how many Nissan Leafs will be prematurely scrapped?

Another part of the equation that has not been thought out.

And an article in yesterdays Daily Mail highlights that Congolese miners as young as 11 are risking their lives (it says) for the cobalt required for the digital electric world for just £1.50 a day, which does not make me feel good of the way new technology is going.

Chris

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by Steve Skelton 1 on 22/11/2020 17:07:10:

Some were mentioning that gas boilers and gas networks are due to be ripped out. This is probably a premature statement as the industry are looking at introducing hydrogen into the main gas network with a long term potential switch-over to a non-carbon based gas system.

The government just hasn't woken up to this yet!!

See https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/new-technology/hydrogen-can-be-distributed-in-britains-gas-networks-new-study-finds/

and

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/worcester-boschs-hydrogen-boiler-prototype-enters-first-field-trial

Steve

Steve,

The govt have woken up to this, I attended a virtual hydrogen conference last week just before Boris made his green speech (which didn't get much media coverage!) and hydrogen was number two on the list. There is a project seeking a town to be converted to hydrogen in the gas network very soon. As someone else said, nice idea but I think the fire service may become busier again! I wonder what flavour they will make it so people are aware of leaks. The only saving grace is the band where hydrogen is actually explosive is quite narrow, still burns though!

Paul.

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

pgk,

Thanks for the info on chargers, where people have electric heating, cooking etc I would guess 16a will be about the limit of spare capacity on the domestic fuse!

Paul.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Browsing another forum I was reading about the idea of equipping lampposts with EV charging points.

That got me thinking about some local roads with victorian terrace houses (now called cottages), the roads are fully parked on both sides because the cottages do not have anywhere else to park and most have more than one car

Counting the number number of lamp posts I reckon it works out at roughly one post to every nine houses, many issues to be overcome in places like that over the next few years!

Edited By V8Eng on 22/11/2020 20:21:56

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by V8Eng on 22/11/2020 20:20:08:

Browsing another forum I was reading about the idea of equipping lampposts with EV charging points.

That got me thinking about some local roads with victorian terrace houses (now called cottages), the roads are fully parked on both sides because the cottages do not have anywhere else to park and most have more than one car

Counting the number number of lamp posts I reckon it works out at roughly one post to every nine houses, many issues to be overcome in places like that over the next few years!

Edited By V8Eng on 22/11/2020 20:21:56

Exactly like where I live. Such is the commitment and degree of forward planning that the County Council are currently for the first time in 30 years breaking out the pavements and kerb stones and renewing them – shame they didn't take to opportunity to collaborate with the power and interweb companies to at least lay cables for fibre to house and kerb side chargers! It won't be 10 years till they have to dig em up again if the 2030 plan comes to pass!

Paul.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Paul Kemp on 22/11/2020 20:15:43:

pgk,

Thanks for the info on chargers, where people have electric heating, cooking etc I would guess 16a will be about the limit of spare capacity on the domestic fuse!

Paul.

Lots of factors at play – some houses still on shared supplies or cannot get their main fuse upgraded and are stuck on 60A incoming. But if you have 30A spare for cooking then it's no big deal to turn off the car's charging while you cook – you just have to be aware and remember. I can do stuff like that via an app through the domestic wifi (no cell signal here). equally the car's onboard charger is supposed to monitor current ripples and reduce draw when anything suspect is going on

ChrisH

Battery life is a concern. The leaf you example was built 2012 – a long time ago in terms of EVs. Nevertheless there are still EV's being sold with only 5yr battery warranties and that's too short. Mine has an 8 yr warranty – if storage drops below 80% (I think) but that doesn't mean they throw in a brand new one… it'd be a recycled jobbie that exceeds the 80% and hobbles over the warranty time….

There's a lot wrong with not just cobalt mining – slavery by proxy applies just as much to sweat shops sewing clothes or trainers or even coffee picking in Nicaragua. All the claimed good intentions of factory inspections are close to a joke – they nearly always give notice and there's a temporary clean-up whie inspection happens.

I mentioned above that Tesla have developed a cobalt free Li-ion cell but note that few get excited about the cobalt in their mobile phone or the other precious metals in there. It's not currently fashionable to diss the mobile phone whereas EV's are fair game (OK they have bigger batteries but millions of phones dumped every year even though they can be recycled)

pgk

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Bazyle on 22/11/2020 18:59:07:

I guess a lot of us remember the switch-over to North Sea gas. One of the problems of switching back to 'town gas' equivalent is that hydrogen is a small molecule that will find a lot of leaks that were ignored because the large methane molecule can't get through.

Pre WWI my great uncle contracted with his mother in their then rural home to supply her kitchen with gas. Went ok for a few months then the shed exploded. He worked with semi-rigid airships during the war so I gues the fascination with gas continued for a while.

Round where I live they can't even keep the methane in the gas mains, when out walking the dog I regularly smell gas. I reckon they find it cheaper to let it leak than to fix it. When it gets really bad I ring them up, fair enough they are usually out within a couple of hours, but they don't seem to go looking for leaks. Latest one is only a few feet from the last one I reported, The pipe is probably on its last legs all the way along that road.

hydrogen deflagration limit is 4% to 75% concentration, detonation is 18.3% to 59%. I had a fair bit to do with hydrogen issues at work, the good thing is it is so bouyant that it disperses very quickly in the open air, downside is the energy to ignite it is quite low.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Several years ago I had some tree's down at the front of the house and the drive rebuilt, the builder had a mini digger on site to pull out the tree roots, while he was clearing the ground around the tree the digger driver spotted a yellow pipe, my gas supply, he stopped and called the builder to come and spot for him and whilst he waited he took the digger 20 feet further away and put the bucket in the ground and came up with a now busted gas pipe, I went indoors and turned the electric off and got my wife outside and phoned the gasboard and within an hour had the advanced guard who cleared the houses either side and checked our lofts, we all stood waiting the repair team to turn up when the village gossip came out of her house and walking towards us light a cigarette, the gas man shouted to her to put it out with no response so he ran towards her screaming all sorts of expletives until she took the hint. The repair team turned up and I asked where do you turn the supply off and was told there are no off valves and the repair was done live with a form of induction heater coil, the leak cost £800 to repair.

Martin P

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Further to V8Eng's point about Victorian terraces – and this also applies to modern housing estates built in 'Nouveau Pastiche' –

Not only do have to park at the roadside, but there is no guarantee you will find space outside your own home or at times in the same street. In mine it's worsened by owners of long-wheelbase vans, such as a couple a few doors from me who run a carrier service from home, and someone, possibly the husband of that couple, regularly parking a Dorset Council road-works lorry nearby.

Even without self-employed or sub-contract traders using big vehicles, many households have more than one car, as well as visiting friends and relatives.

Not far from my home is another mainly-19C road, in which one terrace is up above a high bank whose retaining wall prevents any parking by it.

These politicians and campaigners like Extract of Ebullition and Greater Thunderbox really do need to learn how many of us live before trying to dictate to us all. Yes, as a society we do use far too much fossil fuel and many other materials in a throw-away society for our own and the environment's good, but the alternatives have to be sensible.

Many contributors here have given us facts and figures I did not know, but whose implications are depressing to say the least. I think as the pool of i.c.-engine cars dwindles, vast numbers of people will never be able to own anything more than an electric bicycle; and I regard the campaigner's rosy talk of gigantic fleets of on-demand hire-cars to be just planet-warming waffle.

I foresee future society reverting to most homes being cold in Winter, the next valley may just as well be on the next continent; a trip to the nearest market-town is something of an ordeal or adventure and an exotic holiday is an annual excursion by train – and in that regressive future huge swathes of cultural and social activities we know now, will have become extinct.

I think my generation has had the best of it – though our great-grand-children will probably say, "Yes, and look what a mess you left us while enjoying so many lovely things we can never have."

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by ChrisH on 22/11/2020 19:53:30:

A letter in todays Sunday Telegraph. A punter writes he bought a 3 year old Nissan Leaf in 2015. Now it has a range of just 40 miles, down from 70 in the time he has owned it (seriously, why would you buy a car with a range of just 70 miles? Beyond me).

Last year he got a quote from the Portsmouth dealer for a new battery at £7500. He declined and regretted it now, as this year the Gateshead dealer said Nissan no longer exchange batteries and a new one would cost £19000; the dealer in Swindon quoted £22500.

If that is par for the course then second hand electric cars are way out of my league; who in their right mind would pay that much for a battery for an 8 year old car? As the writer says – at that cost how many Nissan Leafs will be prematurely scrapped?

Another part of the equation that has not been thought out.

And an article in yesterdays Daily Mail highlights that Congolese miners as young as 11 are risking their lives (it says) for the cobalt required for the digital electric world for just £1.50 a day, which does not make me feel good of the way new technology is going.

Chris

You all seem to be flailing away quoting journalistic hype and projecting forward by 15 years!

Look at this video. But do remember that battery repairs/replacement/improvement/prices/etc will change as BEVs become more widespread.

**LINK**

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

NDIT I was just quoting what I had read today. The first was someones real life experience, the second was similar to articles – as pgk pgk alluded to and to which I agree – which could be equally well be applied to Eastern textiles sweatshops and the like.

I was pointing out what I had read. If you chose to rubbish those facts and dismiss them as being just " journalistic hype" feel free, but don't tell me that you haven't been warned! The grass is not always greener t'other side of the hill.

Have a good day now ………

Chris

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Posted by not done it yet on 22/11/2020 21:54:24:

Posted by ChrisH on 22/11/2020 19:53:30:

You all seem to be flailing away quoting journalistic hype and projecting forward by 15 years!

Look at this video. But do remember that battery repairs/replacement/improvement/prices/etc will change as BEVs become more widespread.

**LINK**

NDIY,

I am not sure what point you are trying to make? They fitted more batteries, increased the weight and extended the range – I don't think anyone has said this is impossible? Chris's point as I saw it was the cost and that was the thing missing from the video linked – no mention of cost. Also It relies on the original battery still being good, I think when they checked the range before connecting the extender pack they said 70 miles? Therefore the existing battery wasn't in bad shape. Connecting a new pack to a knackered one would not have the same effect.

Paul.

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