Hard Drive

[VicParticipant @vic]

I just bought a new backup HDD and then came across this old LaCie d2 drive in the cupboard. It’s in a really solid aluminium case and weighs a whopping 1694g. The trouble is that it’s only 120GB with a FireWire interface. Such a shame to get rid of something so well made. In contrast the little LaCie next to it is 2TB and USB-C.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

30 or so years ago in the days of bbc B computers and 5.25″ floppy discs a friend of mind had a ‘winchester’, no not a rifle, an early hard drive, from memory about 12″ diameter and b****r all storage, but faster than floppies. Like saying a tortoise is faster than a snail I suppose

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

Our first computer at work in the early 1980s was an NEC APC (Advanced Personal Computer)  and uniquely supporting both CP/M-86 and MS-DOS from large 8-inch floppy disks, making them a distinct, high-performance alternative to IBM PCs. They featured an NEC 8086 CPU, significant RAM (128KB+), expansion slots, and a distinctive design with integrated 8-inch drives.  They sold for about $4,000, which is expensive for the time.

We later updated to a computer with 5½” floppy and a 10 MB hard drive. Only small text files were used, no graphics and our thoughts were that we would never fill such a big drive.

NEC had their own operating system which, at the time and was better than Microsoft but only available for NEC computers. Microsoft later became more popular when other, cheaper brands of computer were developed.

 

[VicParticipant @vic]

We had a Winchester given to us many years ago, it was a fairly big heavy box with a capacity of 50mb. I think it had some kind of coax cable connector? We never did manage to get it working so used the twin 3.5” floppy drives built in the Apricot computer.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

In the 1980s I helped write a book, with me doing all the typing on an Amstrad PCW9512. These used CP/M, and 3″ floppy discs, awkward when it came to arranging printing. Luckily the friend-of-a-friend route found someone with a dual drive to copy everything to 3.5″, MS-DOS / WIN 3.1 discs, and I had also saved the files in plain text.

The computer also came with an auxiliary disc holding a lot of experts-only stuff, a rather neat 3D-image chess game, and the compilers for both BASIC and a strange language called Digital Research “LOGO”. I bought teaching books for both.

I made some progress learning BASIC, which in its Hewlett-Packard editions was used at work in locally-written programmes for driving electronic measuring instruments. The character and string-manipulating routines were fun!

I found the LOGO impenetrable. The book claimed the language was developed to help school-children learn “structured programming” whatever that was, but it was extremely telegrammatic and not at all intuitive even at a simple level. I carefully typed in the exercises and they worked, but I never understood them.   .

….

Later, my section at work installed its own, dedicated system for fast number-milling. Own server in a secure room, and half-tonne CRT terminals on people’s desks. These SUN ‘Microsystem’ computers used a very bare version of windows, I was told was much closer to the IBM original than the µSoft “Windows” copy.

Their starting took about five minutes of self-setting and testing, with screen-full after screen-full of nothing a non-programmer could understand. I forget if they had mice, but using them was almost all command-line typing not unlike MS-DOS. They used a similar, lengthy closing routine too, before you could turn off the power.

I do not know the performance but that system was way ahead of the “ordinary” PCs running mid-era MS Windows. Though perhaps now my relatively modest, modern PC here at home might give it a run for its money, if it could be operated off-line and with far less Microsoft guff.

.

They do call the yoof of today “computer literate” and we of bus-pass age just the opposite, even “Luddites” by those who do not know what that means.

Really? I reckon the other way round for many people, because unless actually employed in IT somehow, the yoofs only have to learn how to use the instrument, the Internet and perhaps one or two common applications. They do not have the range of IT experience many older people have, some from MS-DOS and earlier days; and you see as many oldies as younger folk using “smart”-‘phones; though perhaps not addictively so.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Yes, but these “Yoofs” have the power to raid bank accounts and hold businesses to ransom.  Probably with Ai, you could ask for a routine to do exactly the same.

I have a relation who was employed to write an Ai system to verify that Ai results were legal !

Bob

[Paul Lousick]

On Paul Lousick Said:

Our first computer at work in the early 1980s was an NEC APC (Advanced Personal Computer)  and uniquely supporting both CP/M-86 and MS-DOS from large 8-inch floppy disks, making them a distinct, high-performance alternative to IBM PCs. They featured an NEC 8086 CPU, significant RAM (128KB+), expansion slots, and a distinctive design with integrated 8-inch drives.  They sold for about $4,000, which is expensive for the time.

We later updated to a computer with 5½” floppy and a 10 MB hard drive. Only small text files were used, no graphics and our thoughts were that we would never fill such a big drive.

NEC had their own operating system which, at the time and was better than Microsoft but only available for NEC computers. Microsoft later became more popular when other, cheaper brands of computer were developed.

 

Not unique in supporting both CP/M-86 and MS-DOS. Both ran on Intel processors so many machines would run both.
The DEC Rainbow 100 did it properly. They supported both CP/M and MS-DOS by having two processors, one Zilog Z80 and one Intel 8088. It could also run CP/M-86 on the Intel but why would you? I ran one for years.

Robert.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

Mee to, my first computer was the Rainbow 100. Used it for years, almost exclusively with CP/M. Wasn’t aware of the dual CPUs though.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

…….

Later, my section at work installed its own, dedicated system for fast number-milling. Own server in a secure room, and half-tonne CRT terminals on people’s desks. These SUN ‘Microsystem’ computers used a very bare version of windows, I was told was much closer to the IBM original than the µSoft “Windows” copy.

You were misled!  Sun sold mini-computers, I think running Berkeley UNIX.  Nothing to do with Microsoft or IBM.  The microprocessor was far more powerful than anything in a PC, loads of memory, big discs, and accelerators.   Not cheap –  roughly 10x or more than the very best PC.   Big ones were servers supporting many dumb terminals,  but they also came as a graphics workstation, running early CAD.    Much of the technology was developed by Xerox, who laid many foundations, with UNIX from the University of California, (Berkeley College).  All before Bill Gates, and long before IBM.     The Xerox PARC (with mouse and GUI) appeared in 1972, very influential, but extremely costly.

Their starting took about five minutes of self-setting and testing, with screen-full after screen-full of nothing a non-programmer could understand.

The messages are for system administrators rather than programmers.   Early hardware was unreliable, so they where important.  Bad discs, memory and a host of other peripheral wobblers.  Also, services failing to start – print, login, network.  There are hundreds of them.   Modern computers being much more reliable makes the start messages less interesting.  Windows hides them, making debugging harder when it goes wrong, but Linux (and MAC) can show them or not optionally.   Very useful if there’s a problem.

 

I forget if they had mice, but using them was almost all command-line typing not unlike MS-DOS. They used a similar, lengthy closing routine too, before you could turn off the power.

Back then dumb terminals didn’t support mice, but if your installation had a graphics workstation, it would have had one.

To be pedantic, MS-DOS looks as it does because it’s designed to run on a dumb terminal, not the other way round.  Sun didn’t copy MS-DOS!

I do not know the performance but that system was way ahead of the “ordinary” PCs running mid-era MS Windows. Though perhaps now my relatively modest, modern PC here at home might give it a run for its money, if it could be operated off-line and with far less Microsoft guff.

Easily.  Linux does it with little fuss.   Microsoft is a shade more complex in that the server version of Windows is needed.  It removes most of the guff, adds server functions, and emphasises performance instead of look and feel.  Runs ordinary applications except they have a very plain feel, bit like a house with no carpets, curtains or comfy seats.

People used to measure how many dumb terminal sessions an ordinary PC running Linux could service.  When the answer reached well over a thousand, it became pointless.   Also, dumb terminals were fading into history – used to be millions of them, now rarely wanted as a separate box, though often emulated in a GUI window.   Still made as spares for legacy systems, unlikely to wanted for a new one.

.

They do call the yoof of today “computer literate” and we of bus-pass age just the opposite, even “Luddites” by those who do not know what that means.

Really? I reckon the other way round for many people, because unless actually employed in IT somehow, the yoofs only have to learn how to use the instrument, the Internet and perhaps one or two common applications. They do not have the range of IT experience many older people have, some from MS-DOS and earlier days;

For good or bad, most early computer experience is irrelevant.   And as for just learning how to use modern technology most of it is beyond most people, not just computers.   Been going on for years : very few customers ever understood how a telephone system works!  Or how ships were navigated.

Technology is so complicated, we are all users, often with no idea how it works.   Take my car for example.  I understand how to drive and refuel it.  And how the engine works at the “suck, squeeze, bang, blow” level.  I can do a little more in that I have junior thermodynamics and can talk about adiabatic expansions!    But pretty superficial – I couldn’t design a car engine.  I know how brakes, springs and shocks work in principle, but would struggle to apply them to a new build.  Never met a car owner who understood catalysers, or could explain a carburettor in detail.    Many good mechanics have to treat the engine management unit as a black box because electronics are a different specialisation, as is programming it.  So most garages plug cars into a diagnostic computer, which they don’t understand either.   Not many car experts here could write a program to interrogate an EMU.   I could have a go, but it would be painfully primitive.   Even basic maintenance is tricky – I don’t know how to get at my car’s spark-plugs!    Used to be able to fix TV sets:  not now!

Here’s a test.   Pick almost any manufactured item in your home and ask “could I make one of these”.   The answer is usually no, or, if yes, it’s difficult.  Anyone think they could make a replacement aerial for my DAB radio?  Six thin Chrome plated Brass tubes, internally sprung, telescoping, with a pretty knob on top and a coax connector on the base,.  The aerial connects to the base with an adjustable joint.    Not impossible, except the budget is less than £1.53!

and you see as many oldies as younger folk using “smart”-‘phones; though perhaps not addictively so.

Well done oldies.   Unfortunately smart-phones don’t match my needs or lifestyle.  I’m not against them on principle and email, web browsing, and a landline have been “good enough” so far.  Until recently that is.  Problem is smart-phones support a multitude of functions, and now almost everyone has one, smart-phone methods are the norm.   Paying money is an example.  Smart-phones are better than credit and debit cards in several ways, so cards are on the way out.  Worse,   I’ve been told “Sorry sir, we don’t take cash” twice recently.  Me presenting a £5 note has become a complicated special case!    Cash being declined is a shock, and it’s hard to accept cards are becoming obsolescent.  Not sure what to do about smart-phones. Could buy one and get stuck in, various objections to that.   Or I could ignore them, in which case I will be baffled beyond recall within 10 years.

Sadly change does not stop for anyone.  It’s a juggernaut.

Dave

[Peter Cook 6Participant @petercook6]

There was an introduction to an article by Lee Hutchinson in Ars Technica  23 Jan 2014 which encapsulated this issue well.

“You’ve almost certainly never seen the place where I grew up, and you never will because it’s long gone, buried by progress and made unreachable by technological erosion and the fine grind of time. What I did and learned there shaped me, but that knowledge is archaic and useless. I am a wizard whose time has passed — a brilliant steam engine mechanic standing agape in the engine room of the starship Enterprise. “

[george baker 1Participant @georgebaker1]

Hi Paul

The NEC APC (Advanced Personal Computer)  was not unique in supporting both CP/M-86 and MS-DOS

 

The Dec Rainbow did as well. It was a great machine but you were supposed to buy DEC formatted floppies.

 

George

[george baker 1Participant @georgebaker1]

Hi

I tried to delete the duplicate post but the system wont let me.

George

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

That’s computers for you, George.

[JAParticipant @ja]

How many here use the Cloud? Windows 11 tries to get one to use it. I am deeply suspicious of it. You are giving a lot of information, personnal information, to very large powerful companies.

Bring back the IBM1130 (there was an IBM1130 users group a few years ago).

JA

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Depends what you choose to store in the cloud. Personally, being an Apple user, I have contacts and emails stored/backed up on iCloud, but I don’t see this as being anything worse than people having their telephone numbers and addresses listed in the phone book – were the Post Office or British Telecom ever regarded with suspicion for holding all that personal information? – or sending communications on a postcard, which is all emails are in terms of security in any case.

Rob

[Peter Cook 6]

On Peter Cook 6 Said:

What I did and learned there shaped me, but that knowledge is archaic and useless. I am a wizard whose time has passed — a brilliant steam engine mechanic standing agape in the engine room of the starship Enterprise. “

Rolling back to the original topic (an interesting concept on this forum…..), I spent roughly 10 years designing and integrating hard drive emulators, replacing old mechanical drives with (then) state of the art solid state DRAM based solutions, all 19″ rack mounted.
Oldest ones I replaced were head-per-track Vermont Research 1004s with (I think) about 1Mbytes of memory. I also replaced core storage with each core store having a few hundred k-bits of data, but those were on their way out. Also replaced Burroughs drives in the LHR control tower, 2m cubes containing 4 metre diameter disks, again head per track, total of about 20MB, dating from the late 60s, also a lot of process control units and a number of military/governmental type installations – including one site which had an operational electric fence that was accessed only via a tunnel.

My experience left me an expert on the protocols of serial data exchange across hard drive interfaces, eliminated these days because SCSII and more modern interfaces are simply a data exchange interface, all of the serial to parallel activity now takes place on the drive….
Apart from a host of interesting (and unrepeatable stories), this leaves me as the equivalent to the steam engine engineer on the starship Enterprise above…

Interesting memories though!

Simon

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, my telephone number hasn’t been in a telephone book since 1986, and I’ve changed my address several times since then, and my mobile numbers have never been in one, only those that need to know have them.

Regards Nick.

[John PurdyParticipant @johnpurdy78347]

To continue with the march of technology theme, when I ran the air navigation simulator in the airforce in the ’80s we had a state of the art hard drive that was 10 meg capacity, 5 meg fixed disk and 5 meg removable disk ( the disks were aluminum, 14″ in dia. x ~3/32″ thick coated with the magnetic medium). The size was about 30″ x 20″ x 10″ and was heavy. When it was scrapped I managed to salvage the substantial cast aluminum frame (hoping to melt it down to make some model castings, still haven’t!) Here’s a pic of the frame, and the read head with a 6″ caliper for size comparison. the glass positioning scale and reader is down at the lower right (the reader for the disk is missing).

As an aside the whole simulator, consisting of 16 student positions and 4 instructor positions ran on two 16 bit mini computers with 1 meg fixed head hard drives, each drive had 14 disks. One computer ran the I/O and the other the modelling. No fancy GUI here!!  I/O programs were in assembler and the modelling in Fortran. The system was built in the late ’70s.

John

[Charles LamontParticipant @charleslamont71117]

In the early 80’s I installed a Unimate PUMA robot to load and unload 12″ discs on and off the lathe that faced the aluminium blanks at Control Data in Brynmawr (Wales). The blanks were first stacked and annealed under a weight to ensure flatness. After that, they were rough ground, about 10 at a time, on a big Lumsden, then finish turned. The lathes had a vacuum faceplate and used a single point diamond tool for facing. Each lathe was equipped with an extraction pipe about 4″ in diameter, as the swarf had to come off in a single continuous string. Any break in the ‘chip’ and the disk was probably scrap.

I think that was the place where some wag reorganised a couple of the stickers to label the machine “TEA UP MATE”

At the time, they were still making ‘washing machine’ drive cabinets, but the production of 5″ Winchester discs was ramping up.

[John PurdyParticipant @johnpurdy78347]

We also had a 30 meg washing machine hard drive, but it wasn’t in use when I took over the section.

John

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