Mysterious Morse Tapers

[PippinParticipant @phillspowart84010]

We’ve had a couple of interesting items in some tool donations up at Crich recently. Two strange Morse taper sleeves

The top one is a normal 1-3 sleeve, except it is made of plastic. The makers information is moulded into the end, google doesn’t reveal anything useful

 

The bottom one is a 3-4 sleeve, made by Moore, but it has a flat all the way up the inside. This is very obviously made like that, it hasn’t been battered (ignore the dent at the 11 o’clock position, the flat is at 6 o’clock). The rest of the bore is tapered in the usual way, as far as I can see if you milled a flat on a No.3 morse taper to match it would fit together. It must have been a difficult thing to make.

Does anyone know what they are for?

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

The socket with the internal flat is probably what is (colloquially?) know as a “use-em-up” socket intended to extend the useful life of large drills with MT tapers so damaged that the dill will no longer drive via the taper under normal axial loads. Next stage of desperation after twisting the tang off I guess.

Idea is to first clean distressing raised dings or other damage by some suitable means, clearly a tool and cutter grinder would be best but I guess careful use of abrasives and files might do. With an adequately resurfaced MT shank a flat can be added to match that in the socket providing positive drive.

Presumably the setting up and absolute accuracy needed in the machining process to add flat is less than simply re-grinding the whole shank to fully restore the surface.

Objectively only worth the effort for big drills.

Mrs Google says the flat is created by a swaging process.

Clive

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Use-em-up sockets. I found that I had one in my collection when I went to load a drill into it in my tailstock. It went in the bin.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

It could be for ensuring that a tailstock turret goes in and stays at a particular orientation.

[egaParticipant @ega]

The plastic one could perhaps be used with a damaged male taper thus preventing damage to the machine female taper.

BTW, I use plastic male tapers with helical flutes to clean MT sockets.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

The “Moore” adaptor sleeve was to allow Moore Specific tooling to be used on other machines.

Moore Jig Borers had the spindle socket machined in the same way. To ensure tooling was replaced in the spindle in exactly the same orientation. Moore made some excellent Jig Borers and Jig Grinders. They were always, and still are in the pursuit of excellence.

I had better add I have no connection with the company, just one satisfied user.

Regards

Gray,

 

 

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

It could be for ensuring that a tailstock turret goes in and stays at a particular orientation.

It could but but because this adapter would be held in the tailstock by a plain taper and tang it would be no more effective than installing the turret via the plain taper and tang.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, “Use-em-up” drill sleeves.

I think I’ve a 1 to 2 one somewhere.

Regards Nick.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Nick

Thanks for the catalogue excerpt proving that “Use-em-up” was the proper name for the things.

I always thought it was a common workshop nickname and the real name needed to find them in a catalogue was different.

Interesting comment about using when the tang of the drill has been broken off.

With no tang how do you get the drill out.

Is the slot longer so the drift hits the end of the taper or are they intended as a near permanent fitting staying on the drill until its worn beyond use.

The economics of the latter approach seem a bit dubious. It looks as if you’d basically need every drilling machine to be sleeved down as standard to use the things on a widespread basis. Fixing, for example, a number 3 taper, drill means it has to go in the next size up spindle. Unless it’s a once in a blue moon emergency solution the potential for major shop floor faff seems, ahem, excessive.

Clive

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Clive, all the ones I’ve seen with the tang twisted off, leaves enough metal where the taper transforms to the tang, for a drift to remove them, although you may have to use the next size up drift, or use a piece of steel as a shim with the normal drift.

Regards Nick.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

For the plastic one, here’s a start if you go to 1997
https://www.schaeffler.ch/en/company/history/

Then see ref.23
https://api.lib.kyushu-u.ac.jp/opac_download_md/4377810/8704_p023.pdf

Various other leads available

Bill

[PippinParticipant @phillspowart84010]

Thankyou for the replies. Still mystified at the plastic sleeve, sounds like the famously useless chocolate fireguard.

BTW we will happily sell either if anyone can make use of them

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

One feature of the plastic sleeve that it provides electrical isolation.

I’ve no idea what the actual workpiece or process was but somewhere in the deepest recesses of my brain I recall seeing something in a laboratory glassware workshop. (or maybe it was chocolate factory!)

Ian P

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Re the plastic sleeve, I had to go out earlier, so couldn’t complete my previous comments.
I’ve never seen them for sale in the UK, but for some reason, I’ve come across them in the US previously, though never used one.
Variously described, as either to repair damaged tapers, or as essentially a torque fuse, to give way under heavy loads to prevent machine/tooling damage.
There’s a reference here; I’m sure there will be others, as this isn’t the one I recall reading previously.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/plastic-morse-taper-sleeve.427012/

See also
https://michigandrill.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1745
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225829831025

Bill

[PippinParticipant @phillspowart84010]

Thankyou again everyone

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Apologies for going a little off track, but I’m one of those who doesn’t subscribe to the MT tang being there to drive the tool.  However, if there is any thought that the taper might rotate (for whatever reason), I would suggest, rotating the tool before fully seating it to take up any clearance between the tang and the quill.  So that should the taper slip, it won’t shock load the tang, and might just save it from failure.

[Bo’sun]

On Bo’sun Said:

…I’m one of those who doesn’t subscribe to the MT tang being there to drive the tool…

So are the designers of lathe tailstocks in my own experience; however, I have seen the suggestion that an off-centre cross pin should be installed in the tailstock barrel to engage the tang (possibly, an American idea).

[PippinParticipant @phillspowart84010]

Most lathe tailstocks I’ve encountered have the tang, the notable exception being Dean, Smith and Grace. They supplied a power drilling block to mount on the carriage, and told users to only do very light drilling and centring with the tailstock so as not to wear it out or ruin the taper.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Pippin:

My experience is limited to Myford, Willson and Harrison lathes (the last-named wood rather than metal).

I take it that by “have the tang” you mean have a slot in the tailstock barrel to receive the tang of a drill or other tool rather than a plain hole? Reverting to Bosun’s point, the provision of a slot does seem to imply use for some purpose, just possibly ejection of the tooling.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

The tailstock on the Myford lathes, at least the ML7, has a through-bore and tanged tools are not always reliable in them. I have a commercially-made tailstock die-holder that slips at the slightest opportunity in the sleeve because I think the tang contacts the wall slightly too early.

These are not self-ejecting tailstocks, not pierced for a drift, and my “ejector” is an old hatchback gas-strut rod and a mallet.

 

My Harrison L5 has no tailstock tang either, but the sleeve is blind-ended with an integral ejecting feature.

 

I like the idea of the DSG fitting, and have pondered a simpler, unpowered version to fit the Myford’s cross-slide. It may be better using the tailstock as a concentric pusher rather than the saddle drive a long way from the centre (c.f. using the saddle as makeshift slotting-tool.)

[ega]

On ega Said:

Pippin:

My experience is limited to Myford, Willson and Harrison lathes (the last-named wood rather than metal).

I take it that by “have the tang” you mean have a slot in the tailstock barrel to receive the tang of a drill or other tool rather than a plain hole? Reverting to Bosun’s point, the provision of a slot does seem to imply use for some purpose, just possibly ejection of the tooling.

Yes, should have said tang slot not tang.

[Graham MeekParticipant @grahammeek88282]

Not wishing to commandeer Pippin’s thread, I am going to post my interpretation of the Tang debate on the following post where it was debated at some length.

WHY THE TANG?

Regards

Gray,

[Author]

Posts