Garden water pump

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

I have an ornamental style garden water pump that I am looking for an alternative to the leather piston seal.   I bought the pump some thirty years and it worked for many of those years faultlessly.  Eventually the leather seal needed replacing to the point of needing to yearly, sometimes twice in a year.  Cheap, ~£2 through to ~£20 seals that perform, or not, just the same.

What I am looking for is an alternative to the leather seal that will last, Any ideas?  Or, maybe, redesign the piston with a modern seal?  The leather seal copes with the cylinder corrosion well enough, what about a modern synthetic seal?

The pump sits over a 150 gallon tank of harvested rain water.  Another hose pipe ban has just been introduced so I really want to get the pump working reliably.  Climate change (?) is making this more important.

Over to you guys.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

In the recent blueberries thread I posted a link for a Bosch garden pump. Doesn’t solve your seal problem but does the job magnificently.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

We need much more info. You mention a piston so a reciprocating pump ? Iron cylinder ? Corrosion ? What sort of valves if any ? Size ? A modern poly type material will work if you can find the right size. Do you have any machining facilities ? Noel.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

It sounds like the root of the problem might be the corrosion of the cylinder

… have you considered either re-boring, or sleeving, it ?

MichaelG.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

After 30 years I don’t think a new pump could be called extravagant

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

After 30 years I don’t think a new pump could be called extravagant

Except in Yorkshire and Scotland.

On a more serious note, I think Michael has gone to the root of the problrem.

Martin

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Choise of the correctly treated leather ?

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

After 30 years I don’t think a new pump could be called extravagant

My pump, from about 50 years ago, was a magnetically coupled centrifugal impeller type.  Worked for years, but maybe not as efficient as a positive displacement pump – for anything more than a pond fountain?  It is still likely around somewhere but the 24V transformer has likely gone.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Is the pump body iron or aluminium? Ditto piston?

[Martin Johnson 1]

On Martin Johnson 1 Said:

On duncan webster 1 Said:

After 30 years I don’t think a new pump could be called extravagant

Except in Yorkshire and Scotland.

On a more serious note, I think Michael has gone to the root of the problrem.

Martin

I’m offended, you’ll be hearing from my solicitor soon (only joking, stop panicking)

Even Yorkshiremen (I’m one and proud of it) know when to stop flogging a dead horse. Contrary to popular opinion, we don’t mind spending brass, we just want to get something worthwhile for it.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

And if the brass if for brass, proper brass not steel with brass-coloured plating!

I’m rather guessing this is a working pump in traditional style, so reciprocating and hand-operated.

If the barrel is corroded no flexible seal on the piston will last long, but can you cut one from butyl or neoprene rubber?

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Thanks for the replies.

Corrosion, its always rusty!  That never seemed to bother the original leather seal.  After the “watering season” I would soak the seal in “Hydrophane” (or similar) leather dressing, reassemble, leave it for the winter, then start using it again, for many years.  That seal eventually wore out.  I’m thinking it’s the quality of the seal material that is the problem.  I’ve just had the one I fitted at easter split.  Pumps apart at the moment for fitting another seal.

I like Micheal G’s idea of sleeving the cylinder.  A stainless steel sleeve, nominal OD 3″, should do the job.  Plenty of tube available on the ‘bay, ERW probably, so a bit of polishing may be needed.  AN O-ring to seal the piston.  Should be possible to modify the piston to carry an O-ring.  Another project for next winter!

 

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

A good leather cup sea should outlive any synthetic product in a hand pump.

John, I guess you have wherewithal to make a former and die to be clamped in a vice, soak the leather for 24 hours and press to shape, remove when dry & trim edges etc, soak again before fitting, you probably know all this..

I’ve bought decent bits of leather from these people;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/heritageandcoltd?msockid=233cfd95aad167dc1317e845ab6a6670

 

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

My question as to machining was with a view to putting a liner in. If buying tube make sure that there is no seam on the inside. Whilst 316 stainless would be best, copper or brass may be easy to get and work. 63mm though may be smaller is a common size for copper, often used for gas piping. Good luck.  Noel.

[Neil AParticipant @neila]

I wonder if 68mm diameter plastic guttering downpipe would be acceptable as a sleeve for the pump? It has a nice smooth bore and would not be affected by anything in the water. Stainless steel can suffer from corrosion in an oxygen free environment, no oxygen to remake the chromium oxide outer layer when damaged.

I’ll be interested to see how you get on, these little jobs can sometimes grow into big ones if you are not careful.

Neil

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

More to think about!

Plastic pipe?  Neil A’s idea, using 68mm guttering down pipe, might work.  Problem might be that one of the valves lives in the piston so may not leave enough room for a reasonable size (section) O-ring.

As pointed out, corrosion may still be a problem, particularly as there would be a non-stainless piston that would encourage the stainless liner to corrode.

Diogenes, like the idea of making my own washers.  Looks to be a straightforward job to make a (metal) former.  Suitably cured (vegetable, whatever that means) leather offcuts are readily and cheaply available, I’ll give it a go.

 

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Leather pump washers available on Ebay</p>
In a range of sizes

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Leather pump washers available on Ebay</p>
In a range of sizes

Not at that price!   Those have the look of “N(very)OS”, leather doesn’t last forever.  Looking at the state of those boxes, they may have been hanging around for some time.

The one I fitted this afternoon cost £2.50 off Amazon,  looks to be well made, time will tell.

I’m always surprised at the ease at which the pump will work with such crude valves and a leather seal in a rusty cast iron bore.   Three strokes of the pump lifts the water around 3ft  to start filling the watering can.  Still works well when lifting around 6ft when the tank is near empty.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

..it’s hard to beat a design that’s been successful for at least 2000 years..

[Neil AParticipant @neila]

These old style hand pumps do go on for years.

I wonder if it would be sufficient just to polish the worst of the corrosion out to give a smoother surface for the leather to run against? You probably need not go as far as removing every bit of pitting in the bore as the leather seal should cover sufficient area to give enough suction to start the pump lifting water. You could always prime the pump to start it going.

Sometimes we all tend to overthink the problem.

Neil

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Yes – plastic pipe can be used to make a pump barrel or liner.

Some years ago I helped make a simple lift-pump – as this discussed here presumably is – using a short length of 100mm dia plastic drain pipe as the barrel.

As I recall the thick PVC plate piston has no O-ring or other packing. The valves are a circle of holes through the piston, with a single disc of sheet rubber (butyl pond-liner I think) held by a large washer under the length of drain-rod that forms the piston-rod / handle.

The the best of my knowledge it is still functioning although it sees little use; priming a syphon to drain a “sump” in a rather remote part of a cave in the Mendip Hiils. This to allow cavers to visit the regions beyond – and ironically its location is too difficult for me to visit. I think it’s had to be cleaned out a few times, may have had a new valve rubber, but is otherwise serviceable. I did make an inlet strainer for it, too; using my EW lathe as a radial and axial dividing-head, with a drilling-guide bush on the tool-post.

+++

Timber-hulled sailing-ships had a constant leaks problem, and some used a rag-chain pump to drain the bilges. This was a continuous rope or chain with one leg of the loop passing up a pipe from bilge to outlet. Balls of cloth spaced along the loop trapped water between them, so its action was more like a conveyor than a pump.

 

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

One only has to look at the old semi rotary pumps that lasted, I think Noah had one in the Ark. Simple metal valves all but bomb proof. Noel

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