Emma Victoria boiler end of the road

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

I have posted on here before about my traumas with my boiler making skills.

After failing a pressure test earlier in the year I finally gritted my teeth and had another go at reheating, did a hydraulic test myself at 180 psi, no signs of leaks but to be honest couldn’t hold the pressure for long, as I could not detect any leaks I decided it was probably leaking back through the pump valve, I hadn’t fitted a shut off valve in the line.

Took it back in again last week and it has failed again.

I have never been one to give up easily but I really don’t know where to go from here, have another go at reheating but feel I will be chasing around leaks, making new ones as fast as I repair – scrap it and start all over again, hopefully with the benefit of all I have learned – buy a ready made one, c£1800 – Put it all together as a ‘show’ piece – look for a second hand loco.

To be honest as much as I’ve enjoyed my workshop time over the last 11 years or so I don’t really feel like starting all over again, I’m 84 next month, in good health and active but time I spend on my hobby is limited, busy with grandchildren, visiting family, them visiting us, holidays etc etc. I don’t want to start again with the knowledge that I will probably be getting a birthday card from Buck House before I’ve finished.

Any one built an Emma boiler but decided not to finish loco?

Bill D.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Dear Bill, I feel for you, people of our sort of age grew up in a world where one often had access to both industrial gear (at work ) or friends (at work ) who could get things done ! Now it’s rather different . What’s gone wrong is not now I feel the question, it’s how to fix it. Are you a member of a club that might be able to help ? Or even join a club that may be able to do so, some clubs have equipment that is way beyond the pocket of the ordinary man. Had you thought to seek the advice or assistance of a professional boiler maker to solve the problem ? Since you have already spent a lot of money only you can decide whether there’s no future in your boiler or whether a bit more money will see it good.

I assume the failure was at a club ? If so what was the opinion of the inspector ? Where are the leaks ?

Good Luck. Noel.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Bill,

If on consideration you decide to have another look (or two!) at your current boiler ->

Can you perhaps give us an idea of location(s) of the leaks in your boiler?

If you are unsure can you pump air into it, only very low pressure required, immerse it in water and look for the air bubbles perhaps?   Did  your boiler inspector give you no suggestions on how to proceed?  If not, can you contact him, or perhaps other club-members for ‘ideas’?  Is high melting-point soft-solder an option?  Maybe ‘water-glass’ (sodium silicate) is an option for the very tiniest leaks.

Pics of the offending areas may assist in garnering suggestions.

Chasing leaks in a boiler is always dispiriting, and I see from the current issue of the magazine that it even happens to well practiced model-engineers like Doug Hewson.  Matters may be salvable.

It may be worth you formatting a clear list of issues and asking on Model Engineering Clearing House forum for suggestions; it is far more ‘locomotive’ focussed than here and many of the posters have direct experience of boiler-construction.  The responses may feel somewhat ‘direct’ sometimes but they will try and help if they can.

Phil

 

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Thanks for encouragement guys. Been in engineering all my life, from age 15 when I left school in Brum and started an apprenticeship with what was then Alldays & Onions in Small Heath, spitting distance from the great BSA motor cycle factory.

Went on eventually to be in Technical sales & engineering, several moves after Alldays.

Some of you old car/motorbike guys might know the Alldays name.

Anyway the purpose of saying all that is to say I am well used to dealing with trials and tribulations of things going wrong and unlike a lot of the present day generation I am more philosophical about that situation, as Noel said, how do I get myself out of this.

I had the boiler tested at Western Steam who are 10 mins from where I live, I have every respect for them and the boilers that Helen turns out are works of art, fully understand they can’t pass it if they are not happy  with it. I did have a chat with Helen which was useful, the question is do I want to try again or cut my losses and choose another route.

Probably have a chat with Geoff at GS models who incidentally is no longer based with Western Steam in Burnham, lack of space apparently, he is based near to the West Huntspill ME club track although not been there yet.

Need a few days to gather my thoughts I think.

Will keep you posted and in the meantime have a good Christmas guys.

Bill D.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

From what you have said I have no need to ask where abouts you are. Known geoff for about 30 years and Helen is one of the countrys top boiler makers.

Allday and onions – I have a hand crank air blower for a portable forge of their manufacture.

Good Luck. Noel.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

No need to rush a decision – there are loads of other parts to be getting on with for the next few years.

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

When I started at Alldays Noel they were still making smithy equipment including hand cranked air blowers for portable forges, field forges I think they were called, armed forces used them a lot.

All that stuff was gradually phased out over the next few years in favour of industrial fans which has been my industry to this day, still work a couple of days a month as engineering manager.

One of my first jobs was drilling a tapping blind holes in the gearbox casting, I still have nightmares, it was a standard pillar drill with a reversing tapping attachment but was far too fast, result tap going bang before I could reverse it.

I always look out for A&O stuff if I visit industrial and rural life museums, the Ironbridge museum has an A&O pneumatic forging hammer there amongst other stuff. B&S Massey of Manchester were a rival in the forge hammer business albeit I think they made bigger stuff than A&O.

This is part of my dilemma Bazyle, it’s all pretty much completed now, just a few odds and ends, just need a boiler to start putting it together.

Happy days those early years.

Bill D.

[renardiere7Participant @renardiere7]

Portable forges for military use were generally referred to as Cavalry forges. At one time they were fairly common but not seen one for a good few years now.

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

So bit the bullet and ordered boiler off Western Steam.

Bill D.

[WearyParticipant @weary]

Hello Bill,

Pleased to read that you have reached a decision on how to progress your ‘Emma Victoria’ and have overcome the set-back.  Hopefully all will now be well, and your work and application will be rewarded with many happy hours playing with your locomotive.

Best o’luck,

Phil

 

 

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

One ‘little’ problem I have is loco does not roll easily, I can grab the wheels and turn them (this is with all the con rods, valve gear etc. fitted of course) but will not push along, the wheels just skid, checked that brake is off!!

I assume from videos I have seen of guys just pushing their loco along that they should be like that from the word go not just when well worn in.

Guess that I will have to dismantle it all and check everything methodically.

Incidentally I did try it on air a while ago and it did seem to work ok.

Bill D

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Your latest point:

I assume from the above that the locomotive at this point is just bare chassis, with the faulty boiler removed. That will reduce the weight considerably so when simply pushing it along smooth rails it may lack enough adhesion to rotate the wheels against internal friction.

All the more so if the cylinders, valves, etc are all complete and closed up, thanks to the engine trying to act like a compressor.

 

If you can rotate the wheels fully by hand without something stopping it dead then it’s not an interference problem like one piston hitting a cylinder cover.

A new chassis and motion will take an appreciable effort to move as the piston-rings, stuffing-boxes tend to act as brakes, and closely-fitting bearings could add to that.

 

If the resistance is cyclic then investigate for possible slight misalignments or over-travels, even a slight quartering inaccuracy.

If the motion-work is fully-assembled another cyclic resistance, and one that may be affected by reverser and drain-cock settings and the direction in which you move the chassis, could be a valve giving too-early exhaust cut-off.

Either class of fault may give too much resistance to the chassis when it is simply pushed along a smooth test-track under its own weight.

…….

[The oddest fault I have seen, when helping build one of our club’s locos, foxed the most experienced members for ages. The chassis could be rotated by hand, though stiffly, but it really struggled to run on air. Then a peculiar chance event revealed that someone had forgotten the steam-way hole through an exhaust connection gasket!]

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Thanks Noel, good thought, I will check  reverser setting, can’t remember If I checked that last time.

This loco has Silicone ‘O’ ring piston seals, are they likely to be tighter than rings?

Bill D.

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

So whilst waiting for my new boiler off Western Steam I decided to use the old boiler as a ‘template’ to bend up some runs of piping, how on earth do you make up the multiple bends that wend their way through inaccessible areas. I have read to make up a pattern from soft iron wire and bend the piping to that but my first attempt didn’t work too well. Would taking measurements to arrive at a starting point and a bit of fine tuning be the way or is it a case of persistence and process of elimination, bending a bit here and there and trying it or is there some other way. I’m thinking it’s a good job my new boiler won’t be ready until June!!

Bill D.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I can’t really say if O-rings give more resistance than conventional piston-rings, as much will depend on whether their grooves are correct for the rings (by their manufacturer’s specification or other trade literature). Also O-rings are made in classes for sliding, rotating or static duty and those might affect their grip – and operational life.

…….

Installing pipe-work in awkward places is not easy!

Tools:

I take it you have a proper pipe bender and cutter to give functionally-correct bends, as well as tidy results.

My pipe-bending tools consist of a ‘Rothenburg’ 6mm to 13mm dia. set, and one of those ‘Kennedy’ die-cast, pliers-action formers for 3mm – 6mm copper tube. (You can find designs for making pipe-benders, but frankly regard them better bought than made, like most hand-tools!)

I’ve two wheel-type pipe cutters: one for larger, up to domestic-plumbing pipes, the other a “miniature” working down to about 3mm / 1/8″ dia.

There is another “tool”, we will see…

 

Material lengths and shapes:

Really, a combination of measuring, fine-tuning, persistance, process of elimination and planning is far better than “bending it a bit here and there”! Trial-and-error pipe-bending is a recipe for wasted material and kinky pipes more steam-punk than steam engineering. It is best to work to a pattern or measurement, and this is where your piece of bent fence-wire can help. I’ll come to its potential trap.

 

I make my pipes a little over-length on their final sections (not too over-length: copper tube costs “brass”!) and trim back to suit. The cutter will flange the pipe end inwards a bit, restricting the bore slightly, but that can be trimmed with a small file or a bit of judicious reaming with a suitable tool.

That other “tool” is a keen eye for 3D geometry in space, especially for a pipe wriggling round several corners in two planes. You have to think and look which way to align the tube in the former, to avoid it going in the wrong direction – more so when making a handed-pair of two pipes.

(Stand up, ‘oo-ever said, “How do you know?” ?)

 

Remember that the pipe’s minimum bend radius is 3X its diameter- tighter risks flattening, weakening, even splitting it; and proper pipe-benders work to that limit. That significantly affects the tangent lengths between bends. You might need experiment with an odd end of pipe to establish the bending-allowance for it and the former.

This may also be why your trials with wire were not satisfactory  – the wire needs be curved to the same axis radius as the pipe, not always a very certain thing to do. It might work better by curving the wire round some cylindrical object of the appropriate radius for the centre-line of the finished pipe component, rather than by the pipe-bender.

When working the pipe round a large radius such as a boiler shell, it can be eased round by hand on a cylindrical object of comparable diameter, but needing great care to avoid flats, kinks and lobes. It may be worth making a former from plywood or MFD, shaped like a rope pulley with a closely-fitting U-groove to match the tube. (Don’t use a Vee-pulley: that will almost certainly ruin the pipe.)

 

Work-hardening:

The purchased pipe will normally curve by pipe-bender very nicely, but the copper work-hardens quite rapidly. So if you need un-bend it and try again, anneal and clean that area before doing so. I have had to do this at times, and I re-straighten the pipe by hand, finishing by very careful pressing between pieces of wood in the bench-vice.

 

A final point:

Will the new boiler have exactly the same dimensions and disposition of connections? You don’t to find your beautifully-formed new pipes match the original but not the new.

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Thank you Nigel for that very detailed answer, no doubt from bitter experience by the sound of it.

Firstly the piston O rings, the grooves were carefully machined to ring suppliers technical data so really they shouldn’t be the problem.

Think I will probably need to spend the time whilst waiting for boiler to strip down the valve gear and test bit by bit to see if I can isolate where the problem is, to be honest I have already done this but obviously need to take more care when I do it again.

I have a few pipe benders but found them not very good at doing several bends in close proximity especially if they are not all in the same plane.

I was trying one I made from an article referenced in ME some time ago, originally published in Engineering in Miniature, it was simply made from a grooved round bar, the pipe being worked round by hand,  the results pictured in the article looked really good but I haven’t been able to reproduce them yet, need to check my dimensions I think.

The new boiler should be an exact copy from the same drawings. Even so I obviously need a bit of practice in pipe bending. It’s reassuring to know that it’ not a job that should be a doddle.

Thank you once again Nigel.

Bill D.

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A pleasure, Bill!

It’s not unusual for relatively complex mechanisms like a steam locomotive to be tight on initial assembly.

..

Yes, I have indeed done a fair amount of spaghetti-wrestling masquerading as aiming a pipe from fitting A at Valve B past lots of Part xxx,  and so the unions at both ends close correctly!

Get it right though, with no peculiar angles and no dents or flats, and the result looks as well as it is, right.

 

That question of bends close together is a good one: normal pipe-benders do not easily accommodate that. I’m not familiar with your locomotive but sometimes pipe-runs include diagonals, which apart from less tube and also less internal friction to the fluid, can simplify the layout. I think – from the many photos I’ve seen – this practice was more common on the later BR Standard locomotive classes, while on earlier engines nice horizontals and verticals are the rule wherever possible.

My two pipe-bending sets do place limitations on close-proximity bends and changes of plane; and there the open pattern you cite may well be the better type.

 

What you may be able to do for some instances of 3D forming, is use that basic type but with the die screwed to a plate or board, or fitted to its appropriate T-nut on a milling-machine or bench-drill table, and suitable angle-plates or blocks to act as guides / squares for the vertical section. I’ve not tried this – it occurred to me only as I typed the previous paragraph – but I may experiment with it for plumbing my steam-wagon, whose own potential spaghetti traps include a rather tortuous three-dimensional route for the 1/2″ bore exhaust-pipe.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

One of my early jobs was on steam turbines. I was detailed off to draw out the lubrication pipework, which had to go up the side of a gearbox casting, so instead of following the contours, I had it stood off so it could have straight runs with just a few bends. When I went down to have a look at the finished product, the pipework was bent to follow the complex shape of the gearbox.  The foreman explained that although my scheme would have been easier, it would have looked ‘orrible, and he wasn’t having his name attached to it. Those guys could tie reef knots in steel pipe

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Duncan, I remember many years ago when I bought my first house I got British Gas (or whatever they were called in those days-1970 ish) to fit me a gas fire, all ok until the fitter got to the actual fire, pipe out of the floor, bent 90 degrees into side of the fire, pipe ‘dangling’ in thin air, fitter was a bit put out when I insisted he put another couple of bends in to make it look neater, he did it to be fair.

Thank you again Nigel & Duncan, it’s gratifying to hear you experienced guys have had the same problems that have had.

All the best.

Bill D.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Thankyou Bill!

That’s the nature of experience….

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

As a parent of two boys, now adults with children, I remember the delight in coming home from work and finding them trying to undo a nut on their bikes, they were probably pre teens at the time, the look of amazement on their face when I showed how to use two spanners, one to lock the other to rotate.

‘How did you know how to do that daddy’ was their response, as you say experience.

I’m pleased to say they have grown up with a mainly academic background, they have degrees in Architecture and Computing but also with a good handle on DIY skills. (Dad’s workshop and extensive tool collection is highly sought after however)

Bill D

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Browsing through my box of various valves, clacks and fitting I have made for my loco I was studying the steam injector i bought a couple of years ago, unfortunately it doesn’t have any markings on it to suggest which is steam inlet and outlet, does it matter although I understood this was critical. How can you tell which end is which.

Bill D.

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

Yes it does matter – a lot! It won’t work the wrong way round. Look carefully at the fittings that would be underneath it; one of them should be a union nut fitting, the other could be a plain pipe or a simple female threaded boss. The union nut one is the water inlet, and the plain one the overflow. The overflow should be nearest the output end of the injector and the union nut nearest the steam inlet end.

HTH!

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

Thanks Nigel, all makes sense now I’ve looked at a  cross section of an injector.

One of these things where the manufacturer thought everybody would know without marking it, you either know or you don’t !!!.

Bill D.

[Bill Dawes]

On Bill Dawes Said:

Thank you Nigel for that very detailed answer, no doubt from bitter experience by the sound of it.

Firstly the piston O rings, the grooves were carefully machined to ring suppliers technical data so really they shouldn’t be the problem.

Think I will probably need to spend the time whilst waiting for boiler to strip down the valve gear and test bit by bit to see if I can isolate where the problem is, to be honest I have already done this but obviously need to take more care when I do it again.

I have a few pipe benders but found them not very good at doing several bends in close proximity especially if they are not all in the same plane.

I was trying one I made from an article referenced in ME some time ago, originally published in Engineering in Miniature, it was simply made from a grooved round bar, the pipe being worked round by hand,  the results pictured in the article looked really good but I haven’t been able to reproduce them yet, need to check my dimensions I think.

The new boiler should be an exact copy from the same drawings. Even so I obviously need a bit of practice in pipe bending. It’s reassuring to know that it’ not a job that should be a doddle.

Thank you once again Nigel.

Bill D.

 

Bill,  I have constructed several model engines using o-rings for the pistons.  You will be disappointed if you use the manufacturers specifications for machining the o-ring grooves and compression recommendations.  You must carefully measure the cylinder bore, then measure the o-ring diameter and machine the groove depth so that you only have several thousandths compression in the o-ring.  The percentages of compression for the o-rings in the manufacturers’ literature are way too much resulting in tightness between the piston and cylinder wall.  Good Luck.  Rick

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