Diesel Fuel

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Noel,

Considering your trailer, have you noticed many EV charging points suitable for car and a trailer?  I can’t say I have.  My trailer is actually longer than my truck and as far as I remember all the charging points I have seen certainly at services and car park locations only have space for a car?  So assuming I could find a suitable EV capable of towing between 2700 and 3500 kg I would need to unhitch to charge.  My range is between 900 and 1000km (around 600m) on a tank light and between 700 and 800 towing.  I haven’t found an EV in my price range with towing capacity (used and sub £10k) that comes anywhere near that!  OK it might mean it costs me more in diesel than electric (if I could 100% home charge on cheap rates) but I have £20-£30k in my pocket, drip feed to cover that.

I am afraid when diesel becomes unobtainium I will have to pack up travelling most weekends in the summer with my “vanity 4×4” and sell my engine if anyone will buy something that pollutes! Double gain for the climate argument though, no diesel emissions and I wont be burning any coal when I get there!  Accepted I am not mr average when it comes to vehicle use but forcing me to an EV will effectively prevent me doing what I most enjoy.

Paul.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

What’s the useful lifespan of an electric vehicle battery these days, and what’s the replacement cost of a new battery, including labour and disposal of the old battery?

 

One thing I suspect local authorities will do to accommodate the needs of EV users with no off-street parking is to increase the number of on-street parking spaces that can only be used by EV users, so hastening the extinction of ICE vehicle drivers, in urban areas at any rate.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hi Paul, like you my use of a vehicle is not typical, my car is 29 years old, almost no electronics and burns a 90% renewable fuel, the Landrover is over 50 and also burns a renewable fuel. WHY would I want or need to buy an EV that will cause even more pollution just being made? I’m already green ?  Noel.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I’d like to thank Joseph Noci for his forceful comments on our comfy ways of motoring life – the problems we face are far less serious against considering basic survival.

There are many areas of the world where EVs are likely to be useless, thanks to long distances, harsh terrain, poor roads, harsh weather, needs such as carrying relief supplies or farm materials, no chargers available, and so on.

I saw that government assumption that so-many % drivers have ready access to charging facilities, and I reckon that that is the proportion of electric car owners, not the total of motorists. Handy things, percentages.

 

Noel wonders how he would manage driving from Norfolk to Weymouth- which I assume he has done, either by amperes or calories. Well, I live in that area, and I can tell you there are some public chargers about, but not many, typically three for a car-park of over 100 cars capacity. A few in supermarket car-parks, even a couple in the car-park of a large pub! That for a borough with a sizeable local population plus considerably more in the Summer (seaside resort).

I have no idea of their prices. This seems one area where retailers are allowed to get away with not displaying those, although there is no sensible competition anyway. Presumably too, if you are forced to pay via your ‘phone you are also ripped off by added agency and phone-company fees.

 

Also, Weymouth is like many of our older towns, or modern anti-car developments like the sprawling housing-estate of “Poundbury” ten miles away: huge numbers of homes where even simply parking close to your own is a gamble or impossible.

An EV is out o fthe question fo rme even if I could afford one. My present home is in an Edwardian terrace, my previous in a 1970s estate sprinkled with residents’ car-parks. Those politicians and lifestyle-journalists who waffle about charging the car in the front garden, via cables in pavement trenches (which I could theoretically do, using a rainwater channel, assuming I can park there!) or daftest of all plugged into one of the few lamp-posts, really do not have a clue and worse, do not care.

 

I feel motoring will return to the early days of battery-electric cars when only the rich could afford any sort of car; and everyone else lived very cramped lives indeed. When was that? The Edwardian era!

It might “save the planet” (the planet was never in danger) but vast swathes of our leisure and culture will die out.

However that only spoils our “first-world” fun.

 

Far more seriously, in Africa, Joe’s descendants will no longer be able to save lions or take water to drought-stricken homes.

Even in places like Canada – even parts of the UK – rural communities will become even more rural and isolated.

 

When the petrol and Diesel fuel, the bunker-oil and the av-gas dry up… then what?

Oh, and those are not the only products of petroleum, either, but we don’t hear or read much discussion about the future loss of the other materials and the consequences for the all-electric life.

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

I don’t think diesel will disappear for commercial users for a quite a while so if you are OK with visiting truck stops to refuel for your long trips then you’ll be fine.

Interesting things to watch will be the build out of HGV charging stations as an enabler (Europe seems to be quite advanced on major routes going by “Electrotrucker” on Youtube, UK only just getting started) and what our Chinese friends do in the southern hemisphere. BYD are apparently selling their petrol/electric hybrid pickup in Australia and South Africa now so we will discover if it is rugged/useful enough to survive.

 

[Bill Phinn]

On Bill Phinn Said:

What’s the useful lifespan of an electric vehicle battery these days, and what’s the replacement cost of a new battery, including labour and disposal of the old battery?

…

First generation 8 years (100000 miles) to 15 years at 10000 miles per annum, assuming the battery is changed when capacity drops to 70%.

New cars typically come with a 100000 mile / 8 year warranty.  New battery £5000 to £10000, depending on how big it is.  Reconditioned batteries are available. The UK replacement rate is less than 2%, and the latest generation is better, more than 15 years, most batteries will exceed the life of the car.

Disposal, £200 – £500 which I find odd because they’re full of expensive Lithium.

Cost of ownership,  EV vs IC same model:

• per mile, EVs about half the price of IC
• maintenance, EV half to 2/3 cost of IC  (fewer fluids and moving parts)
• When tax and other advantages are added the annual cost of an EV is up to £1000 less than an IC

Performance.  EV’s accelerate faster than IC, to the point they have to be tuned down to reduce tyre wear and “it took off like a rocket” accidents.

Pollution.  EVs much lower, important to the folk who live in town-centres.  Lots do – why should they have to put up with filthy cars?

Always cons:

• Though prices are falling new EVs are more expensive than IC.   Paying off the purchase price requires the owner to do enough miles to recover the money by burning cheap electricity rather than petrol. (I would struggle to do this)
• Secondhand market is uncertain – probably more expensive than an IC.  Time will tell.
• Cold weather problem. Little waste heat available for warming the cabin, and electric heaters waste battery power.
• Charging:
  • impractical if you don’t have a charge point at home or work
  • time taken.  Not a problem if car is parked next to a point, but having to stop mid-journey to recharge is irksome.  20 minutes.   Could be very annoying.
  • Not enough charge points in homes, on the street, or in car-parks
• Range anxiety.   You can’t just find a forecourt and fill the tank.
• Motorist have to plan more.

Conclusion:

EVs aren’t suitable for everyone. But they don’t need to be! At least 50% of UK car owners don’t need IC. In the UK the average car only travels 20 miles per day, and they don’t haul trailers, caravans, burn chip oil, or chase lions! Large numbers benefit from EV goodness, which includes reduced pollution and reliance on imported fossil fuels.  Leaving more oil for priority users: heavy vehicles, transport where electric isn’t suitable, and petro-chemicals.

The assumption that petrol and diesel will always be available at today’s prices is wrong.  Though wonderful in the past, the IC party is ending. IC vs EV ceases to be a political choice as soon as demand for oil exceeds supply. We have to think again, and the only long-term alternative to IC at present is electric.  Unless we want to go back to push-bikes, horses, and dog-carts!

Dave

L

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

As long as there is a good reason for needing diesel there will be a supply. Once the demand dwindles, so will the supply, tried getting TVO recently?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Couple of comments o points raised:

HGV charging
There is a very long way to go with this. At the moment there arn’t enough parking spaces never mind charging.  At a services on a major trunk route not far from me almost all the car parking has been taken over by trucks plus lots of the roads etc but there is still not enough. Charging around 100 HGVs, even overnight will take a lot of power. If we go with the low end of 350kWh per truck over 8H that is over 40kW per truck or 4MW  for 100 trucks. That’s 200 acres of solar farm, not that solar is any use at night. Or put another way the same as an estate of 8000 houses.

Pollution
EVs are only clean at the point of use.
How green the “renewable” Drax power station is while it’s burning imported wood pellets is another debate.

Prices
No petrol and diesel will not always be available at current prices. The price of fossel fuels is almost certain to rise in the long term. Conversly electricity costs are also likely to increase and the current “discounts” for green usage like EVs are also likely to disappear. Many of the EV incentives and tax breaks have already been reduced or removed.

Durability and through life costs
Only time will.

[VicParticipant @vic]

I can’t see much of today’s electricity being produced by wood pellets at the moment?

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

But even if it was, I think most people care about the pollution at street level. I believe it was the likely cause of death on a young girls death certificate some years ago?

[VicParticipant @vic]

SOD. Dave, from what I’ve read most BEV owners charge at home on off peak rates. This is normally equivalent to 2p to 3p a mile. My Petrol car is about 15p a mile so at least five times as much.

Octopus were quoting 1.5p a mile some time ago but their rates have gone up since then.

https://octopus.energy/ev-tariffs/

Octopus apparently have intelligent charging which is not restricted to nighttime and early morning.

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

I can’t see much of today’s electricity being produced by wood pellets at the moment?

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

But even if it was, I think most people care about the pollution at street level. I believe it was the likely cause of death on a young girls death certificate some years ago?

About 4 GW, which is what it is most of the time. Can’t help agreeing that it is a con, but at the moment we’d be embarrassed without it.

[howardbParticipant @howardb]

Drax power station in Yorkshire burns 20,000 tonnes of wood pellets per day.

Despite being the UK’s largest [CO2] emitter in 2023, Drax received £22bn in subsidies despite being the country’s largest emitter.

 

How do we keep the lights on with 12 GW net firm capacity at risk of retirement by 2030? Speech to the Institution of Power Engineers, 13 November 2025

 

 

[VicParticipant @vic]

We could get rid of plants like Drax with more renewables and battery storage if there was the will to do so.

https://youtu.be/fR–t-eMq_Y?si=j7F5-lO6jrlakKbA

 

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Robert –

No the sun does not shine at night… so the solution being used? Fill yet more agricultural land with acres of shipping-containers filled with batteries.

 

Vic –

Perhaps…

…most BEV owners charge at home on off peak rates…

… because most BEV buyers are those able to charge their cars on their own homes’ drives? And most of the rest are able to charge theirs at work, or by a public charger at 3a.m. or something? If you cannot charge the thing at home you are far less likely to buy such a car – my situation, even if I could afford the thing anyway.

Also, many people choose their cars according to what they want them for, not just affordability or owning a leafy-suburbs semi.

If your motoring gets adventurous if more than ten miles away then a small saloon will probably be fine.

If you want to cart a heavy, bulky model engine to some event a hundred miles away for a weekend at a rally your choices are more limited, although BE vans are becoming more available and presumably the motor-caravan converters are on the case by now.

.

Regarding charging times, I foresee having to plan for long trips possibly taking an hour or two longer than they should, not only because the recharge takes 20 or 30 minutes, but by having to queue for the few chargers available in any one place.

BTW anyone who knows the M5 services near Bridgewater – called “Sedgemoor” I think – will have seen where it installed its three chargers. Not to one side of the car-park, but replacing three of the five or six original disabled-parking places next to the building’s front door, and those nearest the door at that.

[howardbParticipant @howardb]

“We could get rid of plants like Drax with more renewables and battery storage if there was the will to do so.”

Could you supply the costings for doing exactly this?
Exactly, the cost of battery storage per KW/hr at grid scale?

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

Hi Paul, like you my use of a vehicle is not typical, my car is 29 years old, almost no electronics and burns a 90% renewable fuel, the Landrover is over 50 and also burns a renewable fuel. WHY would I want or need to buy an EV that will cause even more pollution just being made? I’m already green ?  Noel.

Well said Noel, I couldn’t agree more.  The energy and resources needed (apparently) to produce an EV seem to get conveniently swept under the carpet.  Not to mention longevity, repair costs and disposal.  Don’t get me wrong, EV’s have their place.  Just let the people decide what they want, and if they can live with the issues around charging.

[howardb]

On howardb Said:

“We could get rid of plants like Drax with more renewables and battery storage if there was the will to do so.”

Could you supply the costings for doing exactly this?
Exactly, the cost of battery storage per KW/hr at grid scale?

No. But did you actually watch the video? I suggest you do a Google. The data’s out there if you really want to know.

[VicParticipant @vic]

It seems the maths are starting to become apparent to some motorists now. Especially as some BEV’s are the same price price as comparable ICE cars, even without the £3,750 government grant.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Robert –

No the sun does not shine at night…

I saw this on FB so I took a screenshot.

I knew I’d get chance to use it at some point. 🤣

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, we will all be non-existent before the sun stops shining, but the majority of people normally live in one geolocation 24/7, and so for them, the sun doesn’t shine there at night. 😎

Regards Nick.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Couple of comments o points raised:

HGV charging
There is a very long way to go with this. At the moment there arn’t enough parking spaces never mind charging.  At a services on a major trunk route not far from me almost all the car parking has been taken over by trucks plus lots of the roads etc but there is still not enough. Charging around 100 HGVs, even overnight will take a lot of power. If we go with the low end of 350kWh per truck over 8H that is over 40kW per truck or 4MW  for 100 trucks.

It’s a shame you seem to have no imagination. There may soon be a time when refuelling an EV is just as quick as filling with conventional fuels. Where does your argument go then? Let’s not forget that it took 25 years for the first petrol station to open after the introduction of the car in the UK.

You didn’t say what EV you have.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/quicker-petrol-ev-changes-charging-game

 

 

[Bo’sun]

On Bo’sun Said:

On noel shelley Said:

Hi Paul, like you my use of a vehicle is not typical, my car is 29 years old, almost no electronics and burns a 90% renewable fuel, the Landrover is over 50 and also burns a renewable fuel. WHY would I want or need to buy an EV that will cause even more pollution just being made? I’m already green ?  Noel.

Well said Noel, I couldn’t agree more.  The energy and resources needed (apparently) to produce an EV seem to get conveniently swept under the carpet.  Not to mention longevity, repair costs and disposal.  Don’t get me wrong, EV’s have their place.  Just let the people decide what they want, and if they can live with the issues around charging.

OK Bo’sun, what’s your plan?  Petrol and diesel will be unaffordable in the near future, optimistically, 30 years, probably sooner. What then?

Today, individuals can choose between EV or IC on personal grounds.  But that won’t be possible when there are no petrol stations because no-one can afford petrol!

With luck fuel prices will rise gradually giving people plenty time to adjust.  More likely, because the problem isn’t being managed, is there will be a series of serious shocks causing a lot of damage to the economy as a whole.  Including leaving large numbers of car owners stuck with IC vehicles they can’t refuel.

In the future, personal choice will be replaced by queues, rationing, unreliable supply, and more.   Freedom of choice is irrelevant when the resources aren’t available.  I’m not free to buy a £10M luxury yacht – can’t afford it.

As it takes time to develop alternatives to IC, we need to get on with it now, not kick the can down the road.  Avoiding difficult decisions rarely works out well.  Fossil fuels are also an example of sweeping costs under the carpet.  The infrastructure needed to extract, refine, and distribute oil is massive.  Oil wells; oil-rigs; digging out shale and tar-sand; refineries; super-tankers; coastal tankers; port facilities; bulk storage depots; transcontinental pipelines; rail and road tankers; and the network of garage forecourts…   Huge investment, no different from electric, other than the sources are running down.  Big changes, action required sooner rather than later if the wheels aren’t to fall off!

We want vehicles to get us and our stuff from A to B.  How they are fuelled doesn’t matter provided the machine does the job.  EV is a good choice unless there’s particular reason to buy IC.   I outlined the pros and cons above, they make it possible for individuals to decide what works for them.

Disliking change or not understanding the problem isn’t a good reason for individuals or countries to remain loyal to oil, or anything else.  One exception: we older chaps can factor in how long we expect to remain fit to drive.   Safe enough I guess to stay with IC for the next decade because oil will be available, after which we are gone!

However, we shouldn’t burden the next generation with problems by block change.  Assuming what suits us suits them is dangerous.  To them, not us.

An analogy.  When a casino caught fire the alarm went off giving plenty of warning.  Sadly, the patrons exercised the wrong personal choice –  they queued to cash in their chips, and were trapped. 150 dead. Didn’t understand the problem and failed to make the necessary change…  Oil is similar:  understand it’s in decline and god isn’t making any more, making it necessary to adapt by finding alternatives and making them happen.   This isn’t about Tree Hugging.

Dave

 

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

As a matter of interest, how are the batteries charged so rapidly?

Do they consist of a very large number of fairly low-capacity cells all only in parallel for charging, whatever the discharge connections?

[VicParticipant @vic]

Getting back on topic regarding Diesel. These are the SMMT figures for December 2025.

Sales of Diesel cars crashed another 12.5% to just 4.2% in December. This is from around 55% just a few years ago.

 

[VicParticipant @vic]

And the clear benefits to towns and cities with the increase of BEV’s.

 

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