So Much For CE Labels!

So Much For CE Labels!

Home Forums The Tea Room So Much For CE Labels!

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  • #522406
    Nigel Graham 2
    Participant
      @nigelgraham2

      I didn't expect too much for a tenner but the Wall-mounted L.E.D. Reading Lamps I found in A Certain German-owned supermarket looked ideal for the gloomy corner of the workshop, to illuminate both mill and jig-borer.

      I was not prepared for what I found when I unpacked it yesterday to mount it on the shed's Stirling-board lining. Alerted by having been an internal PA Tester for my last employer, I refreshed my memory on the official signs and squiggles.

      '

      The lamp's label and manual bear the " CE " mark, the concentric-square symbol meaning " Double Insulated ", and " IP 2 " rating.

      The CE doesn't mean much; but the squares are the IEC indicator that the item needs no earth as it is inherently insulated against a failure making external part "live".

      IP Class 2 shows protection from ingress of dry objects, and the lamp would pass that when installed as intended.

      '

      I found –

      Two-wire lead (appropriate for double-insulated equipment) from the wall-mounted switch-box, to a worryingly cheap-looking, transparent plastic 13A plug with a fully-plastic earth-pin. Possibly brittle material.

      The switch-box's open back is not a problem as it is for screwing to a wall, but though the switch is behind a partition the whole assembly did not look double-insulated at all.

      Switch-box, flexible neck and GU10 lamp shroud: all bare metal. Full continuity by test-meter "beeper" from end to end.

      So although rather unlikely, a fault could render the outside of the fitting "live"…

      I telephoned the company, agreed I would take the lamp back for a refund, and the office lady said she'd pass my complaint to the customer-services people. I commented that the manual says it was made in Germany, which surprised me as that is one country noted for Processes and Procedures and Standards!

      Whether I will be contacted by the company remains to be seen…

      #36252
      Nigel Graham 2
      Participant
        @nigelgraham2
        #522408
        duncan webster 1
        Participant
          @duncanwebster1

          You should have contacted trading standards. They seemed to take it seriously when I bought from a UK supplier a device which had a 3 pin plug with no fuse

          #522413
          clivel
          Participant
            @clivel

            There is very little difference in appearance between the European conformance CE mark and the "China Export" mark which seems to be a deliberate way to fool consumers.

            Although the manual said made in Germany, did you notice whether the lamps themselves were so marked?

            How To Distinguish A Real CE Mark From A Fake Chinese Export Mark

            Clive

             

            Edited By clivel on 25/01/2021 02:15:10

            #522427
            herbert punter
            Participant
              @herbertpunter99795

              I can’t believe that people continue to believe this myth!

              Bert

              #522429
              Paul L
              Participant
                @paull58212

                I understood that CE stood for 'Check Everything'

                #522435
                Clive Brown 1
                Participant
                  @clivebrown1

                  Need some CE labels? Cheap as chips on Ebay. All styles.

                  #522439
                  Michael Gilligan
                  Participant
                    @michaelgilligan61133
                    Posted by herbert punter on 25/01/2021 08:34:36:

                    I can’t believe that people continue to believe this myth!

                    Bert

                    .

                    Can you explain please, Bert … What do you mean by “this myth” ?

                    MichaelG.

                    .

                    The EU is explicit regarding how the official CE mark is laid out: 

                    https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/ce-marking/

                    … so other displays of those letters do not technically constitute the official mark.

                     

                    Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/01/2021 09:38:44

                    #522442
                    Russell Eberhardt
                    Participant
                      @russelleberhardt48058
                      Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 24/01/2021 23:22:43:

                      The switch-box's open back is not a problem as it is for screwing to a wall, but though the switch is behind a partition the whole assembly did not look double-insulated at all.

                      Difficult to tell if it meets the standards just by looking. It requires double insulation or reinforced insulation with defined creepage and clearance distances and should withstand a 4 kV flash test. something like a metal shrouded lamp holder would need to be dissected to measure the distances.

                      Russell

                      #522443
                      herbert punter
                      Participant
                        @herbertpunter99795

                        Michael, the myth is the ‘China Export Mark’ it has no reason to exist!

                        A non-conforming CE mark is simply that.

                        Bert

                        #522447
                        John Haine
                        Participant
                          @johnhaine32865

                          Why so coy about naming the retailer? It's either Aldi or Lidl, much better to name them so we know what to avoid.

                          #522450
                          Nigel Graham 2
                          Participant
                            @nigelgraham2

                            Clive – The lamp itself is not marked.

                            Russel – The switch is secured to the back of the metal case, but other than by dismantling, which might destroy the unit, it's not possible to assess what is immediately around it. The mains lead enters the switch-box and does look well anchored, then the two PVC-insulated conductors loop separately round to enter the switch via a plastic over-moulded connection.

                            It is not possible, again without dismantling, the type of wiring inside the flexible metal conduit that goes to the lamp head, nor what shrouding there may be within that. The conduit might have a plastic lining but that is invisible.

                            The luminaire itself is a GU10 l.e.d.

                            The 13A plug looks odd. It is transparent, but that alone doesn't mean it is any more fragile than any other plastic used for plugs.

                            Essentially I am not confident that the lamp meets the standards it claims, and although a breakdown is not very likely, I am not confident it would fail in a safe state.

                            #522452
                            Martin W
                            Participant
                              @martinw

                              It's not unusual to find 'fully plastic' earth pins on double insulated products as their only purpose is to open the gate on UK style 13A sockets and clear plastic on 13A plugs have been around for quite some time though they are not my style.

                              Martin

                              #522453
                              Michael Gilligan
                              Participant
                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                Posted by herbert punter on 25/01/2021 09:56:28:

                                Michael, the myth is the ‘China Export Mark’ it has no reason to exist!

                                A non-conforming CE mark is simply that.

                                Bert

                                .

                                True … but : If you are using another mark, which might potentially be construed as passing off, it is useful to to have an explanation up-your-sleeve in case the matter goes to court.

                                MichaelG.

                                .

                                Bedtime reading: https://hallellis.co.uk/passing-off-claims/

                                Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/01/2021 10:26:24

                                #522454
                                Roderick Jenkins
                                Participant
                                  @roderickjenkins93242

                                  You can all stop worrying about the CE mark. It has been replaced by the UKCA mark. Transition period of one year. It will be interesting as to when we see the first one, if the exporters can be bothered with accreditation for the small UK market.

                                  Stay well,

                                  Rod

                                  #522456
                                  Michael Gilligan
                                  Participant
                                    @michaelgilligan61133

                                    dont know

                                    I hope the graphic designer wasn’t paid too much for ‘being inspired by’ the infamous FCUK tee-shirt.

                                    **LINK**

                                    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-the-ukca-marking

                                    MichaelG.

                                    .

                                    http://retailingresearch.blogspot.com/2017/03/what-fcuk-happened.html

                                    Edited By Michael Gilligan on 25/01/2021 10:36:48

                                    #522457
                                    SillyOldDuffer
                                    Moderator
                                      @sillyoldduffer

                                      Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 24/01/2021 23:22:43:

                                      … I commented that the manual says it was made in Germany, which surprised me as that is one country noted for Processes and Procedures and Standards!

                                      Believing a trade mark, brand-name, quality mark, or country of origin guarantees anything is a mistake in my opinion.

                                      Even assuming that everything made in Germany is to a uniformly high standard, which it isn't, printing 'Made in Germany' in the manual proves nothing.

                                      If a nice man in a pub car park offers to sell you a new Rolex watch for £50, is it OK if the posh velvet lined box is convincingly plastered with their trade-mark, a serial number, CE and Kite marks and 'Made in Switzerland'?

                                      The right to use the Debenham's name has just been bought by the online fashion company BooHoo. Good luck to BooHoo, but their business is very different to that of a long established upmarket High Street Department Store. The original Skoda firm was a world class manufacturer. Under communism they became a byword for cheap nasty cars. Today, they're a quality company again. Everything changes. As my Granny said 'Never judge a book by it's cover.'

                                      Guarantees are provided by the seller, not by the packaging, or where it was made. If it's no good, send it back.

                                      Dave

                                      #522458
                                      Russell Eberhardt
                                      Participant
                                        @russelleberhardt48058
                                        Posted by Roderick Jenkins on 25/01/2021 10:24:01:

                                        You can all stop worrying about the CE mark. It has been replaced by the UKCA mark. Transition period of one year. It will be interesting as to when we see the first one, if the exporters can be bothered with accreditation for the small UK market.

                                        Stay well,

                                        Rod

                                        This is just so much unnecessary bureaucracy. Any manufacturer worth his salt will want his products capable of being sold in as many markets as possible so will use both marks. Nearly all BSI standards are based on EU standards anyway so why not keep them the same?

                                        Russell

                                        #522462
                                        martin haysom
                                        Participant
                                          @martinhaysom48469

                                          i got one of these lights on one of my grinders. had trouble shorting the original clear lead so changed it to 3 core.

                                          Even assuming that everything made in Germany is to a uniformly high standard,

                                          German propaganda dating back to 1930s

                                          #522468
                                          Howard Lewis
                                          Participant
                                            @howardlewis46836

                                            Being a sceptic can extend your life span. Don't believe all that you are told, examine and analyse.

                                            A colleague once said of another "He is an excellent engineer. He has told me so many times"

                                            But he wan't the one sent out to fix difficult problems!

                                            Howard

                                            #522470
                                            Frances IoM
                                            Participant
                                              @francesiom58905

                                              empty but original rolex boxes (+ other empty packaging of hi value consumer products) sold for considerable money at the local auction house – their intended subsequent use was obvious to all.

                                              #522483
                                              Ex contributor
                                              Participant
                                                @mgnbuk

                                                Under communism they became a byword for cheap nasty cars.

                                                They may have been basic and sold cheaply here, but Communist era Skodas were not "nasty".

                                                Nigel B.

                                                (ex. Estelle120L5, Favorit estate, Felicia hatchback & estate and (the least reliable & most expensive) Fabia esate owner)

                                                #522486
                                                Bill Dawes
                                                Participant
                                                  @billdawes

                                                  Firstly I agree with comments about the CE mark not being a guarantee, it does not indicate anything other than goods thus marked must comply with all relevent EU Directives and Regulations. Now obviously like all trade marks it can be a false claim by unscrupulous parties, all too frequent these days. Compliance with these Directives usually involves manufacturing to a BS, EN or ISO standard (or BS EN ISO). A bit like the ISO9001 quality system, it gurantees nothing other than you have a good system of recording and traceability etc.

                                                  I work part time now as engineering manager and have been closely involved for many years with compliance, lately changing documentation and checking compliance with equivalent UK regulations. They are pretty much as EU ones as they were incorporated into UK law.

                                                  So we now have the UKCA (United Kingdom Conformity Assessed) mark.

                                                  The CE mark can be used alongside for this year probably.

                                                  UKCA applies to England Scotalnd and Wales, Northern Ireland remains as CE mark only.

                                                  The UKCA mark is not accepted in the EU so the CE mark remains.

                                                  Generally I found this fairly straightforward, I think the main problem we will have is actually knowing where our products are going to ensure the correct marking. With the CE mark previously the problem was theoretically the same but in reality we just put the CE mark on everything and seemed to work ok. Unfortunately our EU friends in their wisdom have decided they will have no truck with the UKCA mark appearing.

                                                  Bill D.

                                                  #522488
                                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                                  Moderator
                                                    @sillyoldduffer

                                                    Here's what to look out for. Perhaps there should be a prize for spotting the first genuine one and another for identifying the first fake!

                                                    ukca.jpg

                                                    The UK Government website here explains what has to be done to implement UKCA.

                                                    Dave

                                                    #522498
                                                    SillyOldDuffer
                                                    Moderator
                                                      @sillyoldduffer
                                                      Posted by mgnbuk on 25/01/2021 11:59:20:

                                                      Under communism they became a byword for cheap nasty cars.

                                                      They may have been basic and sold cheaply here, but Communist era Skodas were not "nasty".

                                                      Nigel B.

                                                      This is another problem with trade-marks, people believed Skoda's were nasty, irrespective of their actual qualities. Arguably they were value for money. Example joke of the time:

                                                      Q. What do you call a convertible Skoda?

                                                      A. A skip.

                                                      Friend of my dad's was very fond of Skodas and his hobby was doing them up. His main gripe was the cylinder head bolts would shear during maintenance on some, but not others. He reckoned Skoda had to make do with whatever steel was allocated to them centrally, and because cars were low priority under communism, bolts weren't consistently made to withstand heating and cooling.

                                                      Dave

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