Which of these 2 vices for milling?

[Men IfrParticipant @menifr84251]

The choice is from 2 vices on arc euro trade

 

1st

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices/ARC-Versatile-Milling-Vices-with-swivel-base

The 100 mm versitile vice – has a design so the moveable jaw does not lift – the versitility may come in handy BUT there are only 2 mounting holes on the vice so it cannot be mounted perpendicular to the table on my SPG 9512 mill with its narrow table. (or not without the swivel base)

It is £75

 

2nd choice is the cheaper £52 100mm

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices/Radial-Milling-Vices

It has 4 mounting holes on the vice itself so can be mounted parallel or perpendicular to the bed which is an advantage – but will the (assumed) lower quality cause problems mounting work?

My Mill is: http://www.spgtools.com/viewtool.php?pid=22

 

Edited By Men Ifr on 09/11/2016 22:36:22

[Men IfrParticipant @menifr84251]

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Hello Men Ifr,

I think you've answered your own question here really, you really want the 4 mounting holes for more purchase on your mill when presumably mounted to an angle plate. Fair Enough.

I actually have the smaller 80mm one and although i dont have the "super clampy moveable jaw" i have sufficed with the usual precautions associated with jaw lift, a firm hold and support as you clamp it and a good tap with a plastic mallet.

I've also worked in a big workshop on brigeports where even with the big vices that was the order of the day. Nobody ever phoned up and complained about my un parallel jaw lifting parts.

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 09/11/2016 22:42:13

[Matthew ReedParticipant @matthewreed92137]

As a newbie to milling, I asked Ian at ARC to cross check everything on my shopping list when buying an SX2P which is broadly the same size as yours. On his advice (!) I went for the 90 mm Precision tool vice type 2. No regrets so far – always needs separate clamps, but that becomes an advantage when you can pick exactly where you want it on the table, and at what angle. No jaw lift by design, and very easy to set square.

The table is not big on these mills, and the big milling vices are… big. A quick check on the forums suggest that very few people ever actually use the swivel base. I am very happy with the smaller, but accurate and solid precision vice.

No connection to ARC other than through credit card

Matthew

[Men IfrParticipant @menifr84251]

Matthew

You mean one of these: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices/Precision-Tool-Vices-Type-2

?

What is the benefit of these over the type of vices I listed? I see they are more expensive but I don't understand why, also the length of the moveable jaw is less so I would expect more issues with the jaw lifting? Also how do you bolt it to the bed?

[Matthew ReedParticipant @matthewreed92137]

Hi Men Ifr

Please bear in mind that I am new to milling, although pretty competent on a lathe and other areas, and learning fast!

Yes that's the one. I use the normal clamps for this size of mill: 6mm studs, t nuts etc. The tips of the clamp bars fit nicely into the slots in the sides, or on top if things are tricky. I normally have the vice square to the table, but there is no problem setting at an angle using an engineering protractor (or cheap plastic squares from school days). Clamps will work at any angle.

More expensive because they are more solid and more accurate- every face is ground square, making it much easier to place it accurately. There is no jaw lift because the clamp action pulls down as well as in to the work piece- there are diagrammes on the website (look under the "more" tab).

As for size, it depends on what you are making but, as I understand it, anything bigger than can be held in this vice with a bit overhang should be clamped to the table anyway. But also the clamping faces, and the bottom of the jaw where the work sits, are all ground and solid- more so than the larger vices of other types. Lastly, being less bulky, they give more headroom when setting up etc and are easier to set up on the table. The swivel types pretty much fill the machine. I've not tried, but I understand you can mount them on their side or end (suitably clamped), in conjunction with an angle plate if needed.

I have no regrets, and if I buy another vice (which I probably will) it will be for the smaller version of the same for smaller parts, and ease of moving (they are seriously heavy).

Have I got that right Ketan and Ian?

M

Edited By Matthew Reed on 09/11/2016 23:52:42

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Hi Men Ifr,

I would go for either of the vices you mention in the original post as they are true milling vices but it's your choice in the end, saying that all 3 will serve you well if of decent quality.

Tony

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I started by buying one like the first when I got my VMB but as soon as it arrived it was obviously too big. The supplier kindly replaced it with one like the second, with a refund of the difference. Now I find I seldom use the vice, preferring to use either one of a couple of smaller vices, one the small Myford, the other bought from Chronos and "breathed on"; or clamp the work direct to the table or an angle plate. I've only ever used the swivel base once, and then found it wasn't quite flat. Given that your mill is essentially an X2 with quite a small table, I think you may find that even the smaller vice is too big.

[Men IfrParticipant @menifr84251]

Ummm I still don't know but could do with ordering one very soon.

My thoughts are I don't mind paying an extra £25 for the versitile vice over the radial one and I'm less bothered about being able to mount it along the bed now.

The problem (if it is one) is it would be the vice would mount across the bed so its 300mm long and the bed is 110mm wide so overhangs at each end 100mm…. (is that so bad?)

That would get me 100mm jaws parallel to the bed so larger pieces that overhang the jaws will be fine.

So I'd be willing to try that (the 100mm version)

The alternative would be a 70mm precision vice (£60) or the 90mm version (£105)

So the 70mm version… immediately the 1st items I need to machine could not be done without repositioning so I don't think that's any good

And the 90mm version – well it's expensive (£105 + clamps) and I'm not convinced it can clamp pieces strong enough so they won't move – In my training days to hold a workpiece you put it in the massive vice then hit the handle with a hammer – these precision vices have a single small looking allen bolt responsible for all the tightening and even then 1//2 the force is tightening and 1/2 the force pulling the jaw straight…. am I wrong about this? Also an allen key is not as comfortable in the hand compared to a normal vice handle.

However on the plus size the 90mm version jaws open 120mm compared to 80mm for the versitile vice (however the versitile vice could handle upto 280mm if the jaws are re-arranged)

And another plus for the precision vice would be the overall length is 210mm so each and may overhang ~50mm from the workbed compared to the 100mm overhang for the versitile vice..)

More thoughts?

[Men IfrParticipant @menifr84251]

Found this pic – the guy is using the same mill as mine and seems perfectly happy with a 4" vice hanging off it…

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Wavy+Parallels&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio0tzWoJ7QAhVRF8AKHfp4C2MQ_AUICCgB&biw=1904&bih=925#imgrc=Vd7peXTLq2ZiCM%3A

I could do with some parallels as well….

[Andy HoldawayParticipant @andyholdaway]

Posted by Men Ifr on 10/11/2016 13:11:56:

Found this pic – the guy is using the same mill as mine and seems perfectly happy with a 4" vice hanging off it…

But he only appears to be machining balsa wood………..

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I have a Vertex K4 vice, which is similar capacity to your second link & like this :

**LINK**

Slightly less capacity (62mm vs 80 mm jaw opening), but a more robust construction I think – that extra capacity comes at the price of less rigidity.

I use it on a Taiwanese Emco FB2 clone like this one :

**LINK**

The table is 150 wide by 600 long (IIRC. It has 400mm long travel) & the K4 is usable for much of what I do. It's limited opening is a problem on occasions & I am looking at the Arc 90mm toolroom vice to be able to hold wider material. I did buy a vice similar to your first link from Axminster Power Tools – it was returned because the particular vice supplied was very poorly finished, but I was suprised at it's overall size & think it would have overwhelmed the machine. I don't think that the toolroom vice would be short of holding power (I have a similar style Sherline vice that works well) & being hardened steel should be resiliant. Most "high end" industrial vices like Geradi are hardened steel. I do like the look of this one from Arc :

**LINK**

but still think it would be too big for my mill

Given the small stature of your machine, I don't think it will be necessary to beat the vice to death to clamp the workpiece firmly enough – most likely something else would give first !

I have a set of "normal" parallels from RDG at work – accurately made & a good price compared to industrial suppliers. My set of "thin" parallels at home came from a Harrogate exhibition – Rotagrip IIRC – which are also accurate.

HTH

Nigel B

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

I have used the same mini mill under the warco xj12-300 guise. I only use a soba 75mm tilting /swivelling vice with it and it seems quite big compared to the size of the mill table and takes a lot of head room (around 120mm) without anything in it.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Having had both I would go with the first, I haven't been able to break the 5" wide in 13 years.
Have used the 5" the one below the largest on an RF25.
Easy cheap fix £3 to put two bearings in the castings, stops it binding.
If want to mount it longitudinally just swivel it round 90 degrees and use T nuts.
**LINK**

**LINK**

Second link I am on my second, the backs break out and not a strong casting.
If you have a look side on anything clamped up on rear face the strength is over the weak point just under jaws.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Men Ifr on 10/11/2016 13:11:56:

Found this pic – the guy is using the same mill as mine and seems perfectly happy with a 4" vice hanging off it…

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Wavy+Parallels&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio0tzWoJ7QAhVRF8AKHfp4C2MQ_AUICCgB&biw=1904&bih=925#imgrc=Vd7peXTLq2ZiCM%3A

I could do with some parallels as well….

I've got the same vice as well. It's been one of my better buys and seems very accurately made. I should perhaps have bought the swivel version though?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Having seen several of the ARC 'versatile' vices (below0 they are exceptionally nice and have a design that pushes the jaw down to prevent any jaw lift. I was gutted that the smallest is too big to be practical on my mill.

My new milling vice is the same as the ARC 80mm radial one, but from Warco. It works very well.

The precision vices are aimed at toolroom-type use, they have a slower to use system to operate the jaw that also negates jaw lift, but their advantage is that being ground all over you can fit a part, then turn the vice and mount it various ways up to machine different sides of the work without taking it out of the vice for maximum accuracy. The extra costs comes from the extra precision grinding required. You usually have to use separate clamps to mount these on a mill.

I have middle-way precision vice with a conventionally operated jaw, but ground all over.

Neil

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Matthew Reed on 09/11/2016 23:51:46:

Have I got that right Ketan and Ian?

M

Edited By Matthew Reed on 09/11/2016 23:52:42

Yup.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 10/11/2016 15:49:27:

My new milling vice is the same as the ARC 80mm radial one, but from Warco. It works very well.

The precision vices are aimed at toolroom-type use, they have a slower to use system to operate the jaw that also negates jaw lift, but their advantage is that being ground all over you can fit a part, then turn the vice and mount it various ways up to machine different sides of the work without taking it out of the vice for maximum accuracy. The extra costs comes from the extra precision grinding required. You usually have to use separate clamps to mount these on a mill.

I have middle-way precision vice with a conventionally operated jaw, but ground all over.

Neil

Men Ifr,

Had a look at the mill, and I would confirm that for general purpose daily use – drilling/milling, the 80mm radial milling vice as in Neils link is suitable for your mill. 100mm is too big.

For higher precision work – 90 mm Precision tool vice type 2 – as Matthew said.

Note also: the 100mm general purpose vice has a groove near the fixed jaw end. So if using thin parallels, the one used near the fixed jaw end could fall into the groove. This is not so clear in any pictures.

Regarding the ARC 'versatile' vices, they are too big for your mill. For others who may be considering these for bigger mills after reading Neils comments, in terms of quality, they are not on par with the original Kurt type with which some people compare (because of the lovely pictures we show), and this is reflected in the price. They are closer in build/quality to the Vertex. The 'No-lift' can lift – a little, especially if the mechanical segment in the moving jaw assembly is not quite sitting perfectly in place. Having said all of this, we have happy customers with reasonable sales for these vices.

For maximum accuracy without jaw lift, the type 2 are still the best, in our opinion.

Ketan at ARC.

[Men IfrParticipant @menifr84251]

Deleted didnt read last post 

 

 

Edited By Men Ifr on 10/11/2016 17:34:49

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Men Ifr on 10/11/2016 17:12:40:

Thanks for all the replies – sounds like the 2 4" vices I was looking at are too big then for my mill?

In our opinion – 100mm vices are too big for your mill.

Ketan at ARC.

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

I use 100mm vices on my Warco WM14 mill all the time and have not had a problem to date, I do like the look of the 80mm one though

Mick

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Mick Henshall on 10/11/2016 17:53:11:

I use 100mm vices on my Warco WM14 mill all the time and have not had a problem to date, I do like the look of the 80mm one though

Mick

Must admit the ARC one is a nicer colour

Neil

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

It is, one of my vices is from RDG ( black) and the other one is from ARC ( blue) the arc one does open farther though, I am thinking of getting ARC's 80 mm vice

Mick

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

I have a 100mm (grey) vice on my SX3 mill and use the vice only. Very rarely use it on the swivel base. Also have one of the toolmakers vices but find it is not as useful for normal machining, takes longer to adjust for different lengths.

I would reccommend that you cut a slot in the base and add a key. It makes setup so much quicker. Just drop it into the slots in the mill table for alignment. (Note that squareness to the table should always be checked if you are machining precision parts).

Paul.

[Men IfrParticipant @menifr84251]

To users of the precision vices can I ask are they genuinely more useful than a standard type?

Also any problems being able to tighten enough for milling?

Since the moveable jaw is short do they have problems twisting if the workpiece is not in the centre?

If they are better I will spend the extra and get one if these.

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