Use of language

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

When I had to work for a living, I had the good fortune to work in a variety of places. One was a shipyard in Southampton. There, my knowledge of swearing was increased by about 500%. It always amazed me how the language would improve from about 1 "Queens English" word in 5, to 100% "Queens English" when a woman was present. Yes even in the 70s there were women in a predominantly male workplace. Some of the less savoury language would strip paint at 50 metres.

cheers

Bill

[merlinParticipant @merlin98989]

We are all real men who know the words, aren't we? We can all swear like troopers for an hour without repeating themselves and anyone showing restaint is a kill-joy and has no sense of humour. Never mind the kids.

Perhaps at 79 I am not typical of the members here but, to me, the same old dozen commonly-used words just become booooring and anything containing them takes longer to read.

Perhaps we should spare a thought not only for our Editor but also for the people who are trying to introduce young blood to the hobby and who might want to encourage them in the habit of using plain decent English.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

When you use a certain 4 letter verb as a conjunction, it loses much of its impact and makes the lot sound like a torrent of abuse. Is it really necessary?

Also some of the things done/said in the name of "entertainment" today, e.g., "Lady" Gaga. Joke title if ever there was one.

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

Posted by John Stevenson on 15/12/2013 18:29:21:

Anybody seen my knitting needles ?

They are next to the big file who's parents wasn't married.

Dave

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Martin W on 15/12/2013 17:58:25:

Hi

I see no offence in Ketan's remarks of 'slowbay/safebay' or 'slowpal/safepal' perhaps its the minds of the reader that damns them rather than the person who posts the comment !! If this goes much further then this forum is likely to be placing its 'Engine Management Unit' firmly up its own 'Exhaust Port'.

Perfectly PC comments I believe for an engineering forum.(Refrains from adding a smiley/emoticon)

Regards

Martin

Edited By Martin W on 15/12/2013 18:01:24

Edited By Martin W on 15/12/2013 18:02:44

Go back and look. Actually "S**tbay and S**tpal". Perhaps I spell "slow" differently?

As I said, nothing personal and I'm not offended either, just seems rather childish. Ketan seems like a decent chap and Arc a great business. Pity to risk offending potential customers.

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi Muzzer

Point taken, I was looking at the posting at the head of this thread and did not go hunting for the original post/s but there are alternatives available for that as well . In general a few well chosen asterisks causes me no offence and I share your opinion of Ketan and Arc, normal disclaimers. That said posts that openly use offensive words do cause offence and thankfully seem to be very limited and have been removed once the moderators were made aware.

Martin

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

My understanding is that 'offence' can not be given, it can only be taken. It's therefore the choice of the reader how they interpret the words.

How does one predict another's interpretation?

Martin.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Too true Martin and I'm still looking for my @~;#;=^%&*" knitting needles

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

I don't bother at all with what other people do or say, as long as I don't get hurt. My Grandad said to me when I was little;- I f you use words like that now what will you say when you hit your thumb with that hammer ?

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

As one of the people who commented adversely on the thread including both Ketan's and John Stevenson's language, may I comment further.

Yes, I'm no stranger to bad language, having heard it, had it used against me, and used it myself. However, these days, aged 70, I do regret those days and do now believe that there is no place for it in normal, including forum, conversations. Whether offence is taken by the receiver, well, why should we be subjected to such language? I am reminded of two television programmes – Last of the Summer Wine (LoST), and Heartbeat. In both instances, the early programmes did include bad language, but not the later ones, and in the case of LoST were just as funny. I have noticed that the Heartbeat repeats do appear to have been cleaned up somewhat.

Schoolchildren have always used bad language, indeed I remember reading many years ago, that schoolchildren have two languages – one for use with their peers, and the other for use with everyone else. Certainly I had the two languages.

I think one consideration has to be to ask the question "does it add anything to the subject matter?" I suggest that in the majority of instances, it does not. Another consideration is to ask "would you like your young children/maiden aunt (although she probably knows just as much as you) to hear or read such language?" If the answer is no, then why use it? And, as Dias has indicated, especially in a forum such as this, does it aid understanding by non-UK readers?

Final comment. I do not believe it is necessary.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

If engineering is to be seen as the highly intelligent occupation that it really is we should not publicly use expressions that could be considered as common bad language by others. We are trying to encourage schoolchildren to take an interest in taking up engineering as a progressive profession. It needs to be seen as such by everybody. Colin

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 16/12/2013 10:44:30:

As one of the people who commented adversely on the thread including both Ketan's and John Stevenson's language, may I comment further.

Peter G. Shaw

Peter,

Seeing as I have been mentioned and seeing as this forum has software in place to prevent swear words being posted could you point me to a post of mine that has swear words ?

Actual swear words and not words 'perceived' to be swear words ?

Ketan's example of s***bay is a good one. What are the missing letters ? Ketan hasn't posted them so it's perceived what they are.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Peter and Colin

How right you are.

In my view this forum is a gem – a mine of information and an interesting place to visit frequently to learn all sorts of things I wouldn't normally come across. I hope others get as much enjoyment from it as I do.

The fact that some folk find bad language offensive should be enough for others not to use it. It adds nothing to the discussion and evidently, from some posts here, is offensive to some people. It is not good enough to say that " It's up to them how they interpret it so tough luck I will carry on regardless" At the basic level to do something that offends others is simply discourteous and to continue to do so, once this has been pointed out, speaks volumes about the poster.

Norman

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by NJH on 16/12/2013 11:37:31:" At the basic level to do something that offends others is simply discourteous and to continue to do so, once this has been pointed out, speaks volumes about the poster.

Norman

So tell E-On to stop sending me outrageous energy bills, that offends me……………..and therefore by your example , discourteous.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Digital vernier…makes me frown
……

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

No I can read the digital vernier, it's the mechanical one that makes me frown, the lines are too small.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Posted by John Stevenson on 16/12/2013 11:52:51:

No I can read the digital vernier, it's the mechanical one that makes me frown, the lines are too small.

indeed..

but my calipiers have no scale just displays..and even my digital "mikes" have verniers…..

[NJHParticipant @njh]

John

I've searched the forum, unsuccessfully, to find just where E-On have posted your energy bill. Although that may well be a matter of personal grief for you, and may also be an appropriate spur for you to use some bad language, it has nothing to do with this thread.

This thread explores the effect that bad language has on the way folk perceive the forum. My contention is that, whatever our personal reaction to its use may be, we should not use it as it may upset OTHER users of this site.

The use of bad language is totally unnecessary and, I repeat, to continue to use it ON THIS SITE, knowing that it is offensive to others is discourteous.

Norman

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Norman,

There was no bad language in the E-On thread, I was trying to make light of a post.

Also the software on this site does not allow the use of swear words so where is the bad language ?

I have even tried to post ***** in subscript so it can be classed as a scale model of bad language but the software won't allow me to do that either.

John S.

Posted from a bad language free zone.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

JS the software does allow the use of swear words, I had to delete one on Saturday that had the full word and no ****.

J

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

OK Jason, understood and I stand corrected but as far as I'm aware I have not posted swear words in full as some suggest.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

John,

I did not mention swear words. Deliberately!

I did refer to bad language. Again deliberately.

In your case, you did refer to parts of a woman's anatomy, and this, to my mind does indeed constitute "bad language" along with swear words. Yes. I know it is a description which is used by people whern something has gone wrong, but there is alternative language which will get the point across.

May I also remind you that you also made some sort of apology to Diane, eg "sorry Diane, let's change that to……" which does suggest to me that you were fully aware of what you were saying, but chose not to change it.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

ps. Ketan, as the originator of this thread has apologised. End of story. No further comment needed.

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 16/12/2013 13:41:25

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Aaarr.

The famous Vertically Challenged Mammary Glands to keep all the PC 'erberts happy.

In future i shall use this all the while, after all it's not bad language but 4 words out of the 'soft' version of the OED.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

It is difficult to present a balanced view.

The reason for my apology was as stated in the opening post, based on a form of arrogance on my part, particularly in relation to the comment: 'But then again, all suppliers are ***** who are just out to dupe you…I guess' which is mentioned in response to comments by Howard Winwood, to whom I owe a higher share of this apology.

With reference to the use of expletives, I can see both sides. There are pros and cons. We live in the real world.

How people judge me is up to them. I cannot judge anyone for their use of expletives as a form of communication. Everyone has their own opinion, which is why a forum is a good place to be.

Some peoples language skills are better than others. If this was left one sided to please a particular group, could or would that represent a form of arrogance?..Also, judging by the cross section of audience mix on here, both sides are very well represented, in terms of engineering and language skills with and without expletives. Both sides help each other. If you ban one side, the dominant side which takes over, may or may not have the skill set to answer questions.

Sometimes (not always I admit), the clean language comments made on here are far more corrosive and counterproductive than the expletive responses given as a short sharp response. However, I agree that some of these responses are a form of arrogance – not ignorance or childish. So are they who use clean language to put about offensive arrogant ideas any better than the people who dish out expletive responses?

With all the finger wagging going on, I feel that the 'code of conduct' as it stands is reasonable.

As far as children are concerned, it is a matter for parental guidance. I would be happy for my 13 year old (If I had one) to come on to this forum. When my children were 13, I would have found it productive for their overall knowledge of engineering and life, if they came on here, but sadly, they have no interest in this field. The language here is still a lot better than many other forums or in real life.

If the young adult is mature or immature, they can easily make an explosive from what they learn on here. So, what type of young adult – 13 year old should be introduced to this forum? Again, this is an issue for parental guidance, and surely this is just as much if not more of a concern to the parent than the expletives used on here. So, again, there is an issue of balance, and where do you draw the line?

I guess that at points for certain responses, I may have to start using this link:

or perhaps this one:

Now that is childish, and hope that no one is offended by looking at them. If anyone is, then I am sorry, it is always difficult to please everyone….I guess.

Ketan at ARC.

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Peter,

I live in a cottage, on a little bridle path out in the country but it is also a shortcut for school children going via the fields over the frome river and up to another village, to the local school, the language is ripe and they do not say it to each other they scream it. at each other.
Bob

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