The Haunted Workshop

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I am used to birds and cats trotting across the corrugated roof of my workshop, which occupies the full width of the garden and with similar sheds in other gardens, forms part of a feline highway. Delicate padding? Don’t believe it! They, both cats and birds, sound as if wearing hob-nailed boots. So fings wot go bump in the night, when I am in the workshop, don’t worry me.

Noises underground? Caves be strange places, mainly anechoic, and very rarely as reverberant as dramatists think them. Some are utterly silent, in others streams somewhere beyond can sound like voices. 18C Derbyshire lead-miners whose workings broke into one particular cave, named the chamber “Murmuring Churn”.

This though…

In an amateur-engineering workshop in a suburban garden?

Happily turning a 3.5 ” length of 2.5″ diameter steel into 1/4″ wall tube, I was working the Harrison lathe fairly hard, but not unduly so. However the tube or tool were ringing enough to make me close the door lest I disturb the neighbours, and the noise meant there was no point having the radio on.

Another 0.02″ deep cut, fine self-acting feed on….

What’s that noise?

It is not from the lathe…. It sounds like voices.

It voices!.. Voices?

Not very loud, indistinct, a bit distorted as over a wireless not quite tuned in. Only.. the “tranny” hanging from a hook on the wall, was off.

I looked round – they were somewhere to port. No-one there, of course. At least I was on the door side of the voices.  I would not have to pass them to escape.

I reached the end of the cut, dropped the feed-lever and traversed the saddle back. All was quiet but for the gentle hum of the elderly lathe and its new 3ph motor.

Next cut…. the voices were back. Surely I cannot hear my neighbours in their garden? Over all that squeaking from the cutting? No-one in next door that side anyway.

The sound appeared to be to my port-quarter, around the horizontal milling-machine for which I am making this collar. The voices had changed, too. Previously two or three conversing it was now someone speaking Morse Code: “…dah-dah-dah-did-it-dit-dah-didit…”

A bit uneasy now, senses heightened by operating a hefty machine-tool alone; I turned, making sure the saddle was not about to push the headstock off the bed. (Some may recall a certain Chuck, The Muddle Engineer cartoon there.)

The mill was just over my shoulder. I stared at it. It stared back: its empty over-arm hole a sightless but baleful, Cyclopean eye. The Voice seemed emanating from that machine, too.

I moved slightly towards it. The Voice hushed.

I move back, the Morse Code recitative returned. Still the slightly metallic, rasping Voice, out of the aether but not quite attuned.

I slightly moved the overhead-crane with its chain-tackle dangling next to the milling-machine. The Voice was unperturbed by that, only by my approaching it, or by stopping the cut.

“‘Bout time I went in for tea”, I thought, conscious of the Cast-iron Cyclops peering over my shoulder and whispering rapid Morse “dah-dits” into the oil-fumed air.

…….

 

Obviously I twigged eventually this was some strange acoustic effect – complicated reflective and non-reflective surfaces, loud machining operation with wideband noise, reflections, refractions, interference patterns. Perhaps even resonance in Cyclop’s eye-socket and skull: the machine frame encloses the spindle and over-arm in a single casting, with a hollow, hemicylindrical roof between the “eyes”.

It certainly was very eerie, though!

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Radio from loose fillings in ones teeth! – Its been known. (Can you get that from FM radio??).

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

No, I think that’s an AM feature only.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Of course, modern fillings made using digital 3D scanning and printing techniques can receive DAB transmissions. Or so I hear…

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Nigel,

Did you purchase your lathe or mill from a deceased engineer’s estate?

John

 

[Fulmen]

On Fulmen Said:

No, I think that’s an AM feature only.

I’ve seen a clip from a 1970’s US TV talk show in which Lucille Ball claims her new filling picked up a Japanese spy sending morse code just after Pearl Harbour.  A faulty filling might detect Morse from an aerial’s “near field”, this being a very strong local effect right next to an aerial. Good story, well told by a professional actress, but as far as I know, no Japanese spy ever used radio on the continental USA.  She either picked up a US transmitter, quite likely, or made it up!

“Drainpipe Effect” was much more common on ships and near land-based broadcasters than teeth.  A rusty metallic joint close to a powerful transmitter sometimes semi-conducts, forming an envelope detector.   These convert some types of modulated signal into a small DC voltage with audio superimposed.  The sensitive nerves near a filling react to the changing DC voltage produced by morse; small electric shocks!  Rusty pipes sound off the audio like a crystal set.   FM and DAB aren’t detected because their modulation schemes don’t have an envelope.

Dave

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Nigel, its not the same ghost that inhabits your Cad system is it?

CG

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

There is one restaurant in town where one can very clearly listen to conversations on the opposite side of the room – down to the acoustic’s of the ceiling!  Of course, the opposite side of the room could clearly hear you, too.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I don’t have enough teeth to hold enough fillings to receive Radio broadcasts! Anyway, epoxy-resin is not very effective as an aeriel.

 

Chris – Could be! Actually the CAD ghost would be a poltergeist, picking objects up and throwing them around, which is why any 3D figure based on the standard orthogonal planes, arrives on a plane-set known to no Earthly branch of Topology!

 

John –

The milling-machine…. I was making a new clamp sleeve for its (probably non-original) over-arm.

Yes, that machine was ex-bereavement sale.

Ooo-er!

I completed the sleeve today without further ado and it even fits both the eye and the bar. So perhaps he was just supervising, to make sure I did it right. I hope he’s satisfied!

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I got that effect a few times in my man-cave, but only after having sampled a few glasses of brew made by a friend [he does that kind of thing ]. I,m not quite sure what the voices were saying because at that stage I may well have been talking to myself.

Has happened !

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

The story of Lucille Ball’s teeth reception was proven true. An underground radio station was found. Now a days I wonder If someone would be charged for the music reception.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

The way I understood that story was that she once did pick up music on her fillings from a local (possibly illegal) radio transmitter. Later that story transformed into a comedy act that was performed during an interview.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Nigel,

Two questions:
Are there any radio amateurs (often have lots of antennas) near you?

Do you have a variable frequency (speed) drive on your “new 3hp motor”?

If the answer to these is yes you may be suffering from electromagnetic compatibily (EMC). The VFD wiring may be picking up signals from the amateur. This could cause tiny variations in speed / torque control. Under load this could result in mehanical changes in time with the modulation of the radio amateurs signal that are audible.
Rare but not unknown. Note that if this is happening the problem is with the VFD installation not the radio amateurs transmission.

Robert.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Two answers:

1) Not as far as I know – apart possibly from one at least half a mile away in a straight line.
2) Yes.

I have never noticed this phenomenon previously.

The “voices” were audible in a small, quite distinct space behind my left shoulder. I had to move
only about a foot or so towards them, for them to go all shy.

I was machining a billet held in a heavy 4-jaw chuck on a geared-heastock lathe on a low range.
Not quite “back-gear” speed but likely well under 200rpm at the spindle with the motor somewhere around 900 –
1000 rpm. The input pulley runs at about half motor speed. I don’t know the actual speeds. So there is a
strong flywheel effect, and the chance of tiny electrical fluctuations affecting the speed hence
sound from the lathe is pretty small.

The lathe gears are all straight-cut spur wheels, prone to noise at speed, especially when a bit
worn.

The machine is pretty old and has had a hard life so there is some mechanical noise from it,
although not harsh nor unduly loud. (When I re-assembled it on my workshop, I discovered the
only oil in the headstock was what had survived still clinging to the gears and bearings!)

The billet had a big hole through it, and it or the tool, or both, were ringing at various frequencies
and amplitudes, but more loudly than the lathe’s noise.

The workshop is a concrete-block building with a wall lining of foam-board and “Sterling-board”,
coated with emulsion paint; the ceiling more such board on top of hardboard with external battens
for support. So probably, fairly anechoic. There are though, the window behind the lathe, and
smooth metal surfaces on the machine-tools and overhead-crane that was also in this area; all
good but very complex reflectors of sound. Further, the milling-machine’s “Cyclop’s Eye” over-arm
holes, connected by a hollow hemi-cylinder along the top, might be resonant* at certain, higher
frequencies.

So in all I would respectfully discount any electronic / EMC factor.

Instead I think the ghostly voices were purely acoustic effects, probably small standing-waves and
intereference-patterns in reflections of the noise from the turning. They did not occur later, in the
final stage of boring the sleeve to size, and would have been very specific to the sounds at source.

””””

* I hurl abuse at the radio when I hear arty types waflling about a venue having “A fine acoustic”,
or being “resonant”.

If you are paid to review music performances in auditoria at least learn the difference between acoustic and acoustics, and between resonant and reverberant. Oh, and the plural of stadium and auditorium!

There.. I feel better for telling them off.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Nigel,

Two questions:
Are there any radio amateurs (often have lots of antennas) near you?

Do you have a variable frequency (speed) drive on your “new 3hp motor”?

If the answer to these is yes you may be suffering from electromagnetic compatibily (EMC). The VFD wiring may be picking up signals from the amateur. …

So in all I would respectfully discount any electronic / EMC factor.

Instead I think the ghostly voices were purely acoustic effects, probably small standing-waves and
intereference-patterns in reflections of the noise from the turning. They did not occur later, in the
final stage of boring the sleeve to size, and would have been very specific to the sounds at source.

””””

* I hurl abuse at the radio when I hear arty types waflling about a venue having “A fine acoustic”,
or being “resonant”.

If you are paid to review music performances in auditoria at least learn the difference between acoustic and acoustics, and between resonant and reverberant. Oh, and the plural of stadium and auditorium!

There.. I feel better for telling them off.

Though possible, I think EMC unlikely too. Nearby radio amateurs are fairly obvious!  That’s said EMC could be caused by a radio equipped vehicle like a passing police car.

The phenomenon is probably inside Nigel’s head, and not because he’s bonkers!  Human brains are super pattern recognition systems.  Our brains make sense of the world by unconsciously processing what we see, hear, taste, smell and touch, plus balance, temperature, position, hunger, sickness and others.  The brain attempts to convert incoming data into something it recognises.  The process is imperfect, and likely to get it wrong unless the input is clear.  Castles are seen in coal fires, but we know they aren’t real.  Or we might be fooled!  Voices are heard in the hiss of a blank tape recording, and people are utterly convinced the dead are communicating.  As Nietzsche put it: “if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”  (And beware you don’t become a monster!)

I suggest Nigel’s workshop is full of noise that contains rhythms due to his machines.  Although his ears flood his brain with meaningless noise, the brain has to remain alert to real patterns, like doorbells, telephones, and wifey!   When it’s quiet, I occasionally hear snippets of morse code.  One explanation is that the spirit world is getting in touch.  If so, I know morse-code, and what they’re sending is gibberish.  I’m fairly sure ghosts and EMC aren’t responsible because I have a mild form of tinnitus…

Human error is as common as muck.  Scientists have to be careful when looking for data correlations that support their ideas.  Having gone to a lot of trouble to develop a hypothesis that will win a Nobel Prize, even rational people tend to become over optimistic when finding patterns in data.   That’s why science demands full exposure of the apparatus, method, results, and conclusions, so that the experiment can be peer reviewed and repeated independently.  Wishful thinking still occurs despite scientific method being designed to eliminate it.

Best not to hurl abuse at the radio when others apparently misuse the English language!  We are all guilty.  Nigel, bless him, often refers to “computer programmes” on the forum.   Whoops, that’s wrong:

• In British English, “program” has always meant the instructions given to a computer.  It’s not an Americanism!   In IT projects,  it’s useful to differentiate between the programme and the program!  Referring to a “computer programme” is a strong hint that further misunderstandings will follow.
• In British English, the ordinary spelling was “program” until the late 19th century.   Fowler’s masterly ‘Modern English Usage’ notes that the OED recommends “program”, but says ‘the British preference for –amme seems to be as firmly established as the American for –am.’   Oh dear.  The switch to programme dates to a time when Oxbridge academics “corrected” English spelling to match the original source language, it being believed that program was French.  It’s an affectation.  We spell labour rather than labor for the same reason.  Quite fun because the academics made mistakes:  ptarmigan is spelt with a silent p because the name was believed to be Greek, like pterodactyl.  Nope!

The old boys also got into tangle with Grammar too!  Grammar is straightforward with single languages like Latin, but English is a wild mixture of influences!  Plus, it has always adapted and changed rapidly, happily incorporating foreign words and phrases that improve communication!  As a result English grammar is full of exceptions and contradictions.  Anyone keen to apply rules to English is in soon in trouble.  More words break the “I before E except after C” spelling rule than obey it!  Up with this I will not put…

I’ve long since decided changing usage doesn’t matter much.   Anyone else noticed that ‘gotten’ is creeping back into British English?  I prefer ‘I got a new lathe today’, to, ‘I gotten a new lathe’.  Surely gotten is misbegotten and should be forgotten!

🙂

Dave

 

[JAParticipant @ja]

I am with Dave’s first posting on this one. Decades ago when single handed sailing around the world was all over the media one sailor reported hearing voices in the mid Atlantic. This was subsequently explained by the crystal set effect with the aluminium (spell checker thinks this is American) mast acting as a very efficient and selective aerial.

JA

P.S. The English language has always been abused and misused. At present it is happen at a very fast pace. Compare this with French.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

While I agree that EMC is unlikely particuarly if the nearest amateur is 1/2 a mle away it is possible. The moose in particular would support EMC. Even small changes in speed/torque can change the noise from straight cut gears. It’s one reason why replacing a single phase motor with a 3 phase makes such a reduction in mechanical noise. Single phase motors have a lot of torque ripple.  It is more likely to be the brains response to the noise as described by Dave. Certainly when I used to spend hours listening for weak signals in noise you start to hear things.
If it happens again you could go and ask the amateur if he was transitting at the time. If you do that please understand, and tell them that you know, that if it is EMC it’s not the fault of the radio amateur.

Robert.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

The moose in particular would support EMC.

However, the foresters disagreed and the freemasons remained neutral.

I think I have a suspect for the “da-da-didit-da” Morse Code sound. There is something in the headstock that does tick as the part revolves, and although it normally sounds nothing like the “voice”, when mixed with and partly drowned by all the other racket it could have taken on a dimension of its own.

I agree on the possibility of a sort or aural paradoelia, but no-one has answered the point that the effect was extremely local. I had only to move barely a step sideways for the “voices” to stop even though the sound from the machining had not changed. Hence my thinking standing-waves / interference patterns.

That is one my two main reasons for suggesting what I heard was real acoustically even though resembling muffled voices. I did not imagine there was an odd sound as such; what I imagined as an instant response, was that it was voices.

Further, I was not trying to listen for faint sounds, although I do use hearing as well as sight to judge the quality of the cutting. The effect was purely unexpected, likely connected with some resonance in the work at a particular size. I was boring a 3’5″ long, 2.5″ diameter billet to a 1/4″ wall sleeve, as accurately as I could manage, and this was well advanced.

The other reason was this was unique. It had never previously happened nor has it re-occurred in three sessions since, on the same work.

 

Yes, speed changes are followed by sound changes, but I have not changed gear throughout this, in fact I have not done more than change between high and low range – analogous full- and back- gears – for a long time. The gear setting seems optimum for using the lathe (a Harrison L5) for most operations, in high or low range, HSS or carbide tools, while keeping the speed control knob on the electronics in the green sector.

 

……

Dave –

I think you have missed the point. It was not one of spelling or grammar but of definition of precise technical words common to both Acoustics (the science of sound) and Music (which is of course, acoustic!). Words I would expect professional users to know!

It is a liguistic oddity, yes, but acoustics (wiv a “Ess”) is the noun even in the singular; acoustic (no ‘S’) the adjective.

The difference is far greater with resonance and reverberation, so even less excuseable by them as paid to know these things! To be fair they do not usually muddle these two terms.

 

A cathedral can be highly reverberant – giving for example, short notes played on the higher pitches on the organ an aetherial, bell-like timbre. This is due to very large, reflective walls a long way apart, and relatively small anechoic areas. Or to give an Abbess Hildegaard motet a suitably out-of-this-world sound, although I cannot help suspect a lot of those recordings are made in a studio with artificial, too-deep reverberation.

 

Resonant though? Well, possibly, but at fractional-Hz frequencies. If it was humanly detectable at all it would be as an alternating draught felt in a small doorway to the exterior. The resonant frequency of a big cathedral would likely be in minutes per cycle, but certainly not cycles per second.

I have experienced what we think resonance, in a cave a friend and I explored down a fairly uniform tunnel to a complete sand choke. Back at the entrance we sheltered just inside from a rain squall, where we noticed an in-out, alternating draught I think was the cave resonating as the wind blew across the entrance. The cave had never previously been explored, surveyed and recorded, and we called it “Breathing Cave”.

 

On the other hand, the ocean does not resonate but it is certainly very reverberant, giving marine mammals’ grunts, squawks and whistles that eerie plangency. The whales are calling, but not by “singing”, beyond perhaps by comparison with birds. The primary echoic surfaces here are the surface, which is a very strong reflector, density boundaries within the water, and possibly the sea floor in shallow waters.

.

Whatever the fundamental source of the curious “voices” in my workshop, I detected them as sound.

Whatever was happening on, or in, the motor, lathe and work-piece, the sounds could have come only from the machining, and the effect could only have been purely acoustic.

 

 

[Eric OlthwaiteParticipant @ericolthwaite]

It sounds like you had a Marabar Caves experience.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, quite  a few years ago now, I could hear music and singing when I was outside in the garden, this wasn’t at all loud, but it was distinctive, and it seemed to becoming from a small wooded are just of my garden, so at first I though there may have been a bunch of people up to no good in there, and so I went to investigate. There were no people and no music playing when I got in there, and so I guessed they heard me coming and scarpered, but, as soon as I got back into my garden I could hear the music a singing again. To cut a long story sort, there happen to be a function on in a hall, with a Disco, two miles away as the crow flies, with houses, a main road and a factory, between the hall and my garden, but the hall is on slightly higher ground than my garden, and there is a natural shallow type of valley, probably a half mile wide, between use. However, I do know that sound can travel in different ways to many things like the weather and the type of surrounding, and even the ground, and sound can skip over sometimes due to atmospheric conditions, which I learnt about from the company I used to work for, when they had to do tests, when some of the neighbourhood around their site were complaining about noise, yet their next door neighbour wasn’t. Turns out that sound can travel in strange ways due to many things, and in my case, skipped over many things and landed next to my garden, but I could not hear when I went into the wooded area, so maybe my presents in the wooded area changed the dynamics of the situation.

Regards Nick.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Eric –

Sorry – I don’t know that one.

I looked it up to find Wikipedia says the Marabar Caves are fictional but based on the real Barabar caves. I was not entirely clear from that if the real site does have unusual acoustics, or if E.M. Forster exaggerated them for dramatic effect.

 

Nick –

Interesting!

Yes, sound certainly can do odd things, especially if it travels through regions that can act as rough and ready waveguides. The lower the pitch the further the sound will travel, so loud bass notes are audible well beyond the point at which any melody is lost, assuming equal sound pressure level at source.

There is a common belief that the opposite is true, but that is an effect of perception. The higher the frequency the greater the absorption loss by the medium through which it travels.

Bats can echo-locate very effectively but only over short distances; because although they call at very high SPLs their power is low and at hunting pitches the call will not travel far anyway. It varies considerably from species to species to species but in many, their basic navigating and social calls are at much lower frequencies. Many hunt using chirps starting at over 100kHz, and at >100dB re the 20µPa, the 0dB level used for airborne acoustics; but the effective range is only a few metres.

Whales hear each other over huge differences not just because they call loudly and have sensitive hearing, but due to density layers and boundaries within the water giving a waveguide effect.

I was amused once to see two children using an open-ended, tubular hand-rail perhaps fifty feet long, as a sort of “telephone” to each other.

 

It is possible you being there did affect how the disco sounds behaved in the wood; or alternatively, although the sound seemed from in the wood, that was an illusion and in entering the wood you moved away from where it was most intense.

This would seem a large-scale version of what I experienced in the workshop.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

No I didn’t miss the point: I’m suggesting that spelling, grammar and meaning are all fluid in English, and, although technical definitions last longer, they too tend to morph!  Remember who a radio audience is too:  the speaker is unlikely to be an acoustic expert, and he certainly doesn’t expect his audience to be.  So he’s more likely to use English with lay meanings  than technical ones.  Though most Model Engineers are all above average when it comes to technical terms, I doubt many of us talk acoustics!  Not in any depth, anyway!  It annoys me too: most ‘technical’ TV programmes are littered with inaccuracies!  Unfortunately, material aimed at experts tends to become TL;DR for the rest of us.   Quite a few here who are proud of their practical skills, but blow a fuse when asked to do engineering maths.

Nigel gets a gold star for word of day!  “Paradoelia, but no-one has answered the point that the effect was extremely local. ”   Thanks to Wikipedia, I can add “apophenia“, a word I must try on my GP one day!    And irony, my dictionary says its spelt “pareidolia”.  Who cares!  I’m 90% sure Nigel’s experience is due to apophenia: noise that the brain tries desperately to patternise, and gets it wrong.

As an aside, locality is likely explained by sound reflecting inside the workshop and it’s contents.   Sound only radiates straight out in the open.  In a workshop it bounces off the walls, ceiling, floor and equipment.  As sound is a wave, the phase of each bounce depends on how far it travels, and that causes a mixture of sources to add and subtract.  If the conditions are right, phasing causes pronounced loud and quiet zones.   The quiet spaces aren’t empty, it’s just that the sounds cancel out so the ear can’t detect them, and they can recombine loudly a few feet away.

Sound waves behave in odd ways, like the Vatican’s Whispering Gallery (interesting fun), and the Sidney Opera House (an embarrassing disappointment).   Sidney Opera House was a fine building, but as constructed, it’s poor acoustics spoiled performances.   Since been re-engineered inside to fix a list of problems, and now everyone is happy!

Resonance doesn’t need a cathedral.  Lathes chatter, violins squeak, and whistles whistle…

One thing I must highlight.  Nigel concluded with, my bold, “the effect could only have been purely acoustic.”  On the face of it, an odd conclusion coming from a man who kicked off correctly with “pareidolia”.  The effect isn’t purely acoustic, it’s caused by the brain seeking patterns in noise and getting it wrong.  The noise is acoustic, but the voices and morse are imaginary.  But read on.   The conscious brain decides whether or not patterns are real, and it can be very stupid, over influenced by emotion, greed and ignorance.  And lazy!  Having typed what seemed to be Nigel being illogical, I realise I’ve probably misinterpreted the patterns in his post, due to me skipping a previous point.  English depends party on context, and I missed it! Nigel isn’t contradicting himself, when he says ‘purely acoustic’ he meant as in ‘not EMC’.  And I agree with him!

Many examples on the forum of members getting the wrong end of the stick, taking stuff out of context, leaving vital information out, over simplifying, relying on out-dated experience, knee-jerking and other confusions.  Me too!  Alas, we are all human.

Dave

[Eric OlthwaiteParticipant @ericolthwaite]

We all know there are many optical illusions where things appear to be real that are not. Why is it surprising that there are audio illusions? It’s all down to the same thing: the brain misinterpreting input, often filling in gaps and projecting patterns etc.

The human brain is not a video recorder or tape recorder, faithfully recording sound waves or light waves with scientific accuracy and objectivity. It merely interprets electrochemical signals it receives from various cells in the eyes and ears etc.. It then uses the same processes as imagination to construct a mental image of what those signals  might mean.  It’s a terribly inaccurate way of perceiving the world, as countless optical illusions and magician’s tricks prove. Helpful to avoid sabre tooth tigers in our cave but not so much for determining that the earth rotates around the sun and not vice versa.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said

I think I have a suspect for the “da-da-didit-da” Morse Code sound. There is something in the headstock that does tick as the part revolves, and although it normally sounds nothing like the “voice”, when mixed with and partly drowned by all the other racket it could have taken on a dimension of its own.

 

 

It’s not the clutch rattling is it? On my Harrison, this was loud and obvious, but I don’t think they it’s supposed to be there at all – maybe yours is just starting to do it. I believe it’s possible to adjust it out.

Though I seem to remember it only rattled when the clutch was disengaged, so maybe not, but worth checking perhaps.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Nigel, the sound that heard was very definitely coming out of the woods, with two ears that both work well, you can pinpoint where the sound is coming from unless it’s bouncing of walls etc. in my case there was nothing close enough to bounce off, as I walked towards the woods, the position of the sound did not alter, It wasn’t until I passed a few trees when the sound could not be heard, going back towards my garden, I heard the sound again behind me. Yes, I know the lower the frequency the longer the wave length is, and yes the music sounded louder than the singing, much the same as the long wave radio travels further than the medium wave does, and both sound and radio waves travel further in the dark. Back during the days of Radio Luxembourg, you could get a better signal when the nights got darker, earlier than in the summer.

Regards Nick.

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