Search Results for 'arc euro'

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Hi Guy,

I will offer some advice based on my experience's and assumption.

I assume that like most of us, you would like the biggest and most well regarded lathe you can afford.

I will also assume that looking at various web sites and the pictures of the machines the various vendors aer offering all look very similar.

I have made these assumptions because that's how it went for me, so I ended up going to an engineering exibition almost two years ago, I went to the Warco stand and despite being interested in teh lathes was left standing and touching various lathes without any offer of advice or assistance. So I went over to the Chester stand, I was quickly pounced on and asked various questions as to what I was looking for and what budget I had in mind. By the end of the day I came away with a very skinny wallet and a delivery date.

My chosen machine wouldn't be classed as a mini lathe (DB10) but in this case my lessons can be passed on regardless. The machine would (I was told), cut metric and imperial threads, if using the milling slide and vice which I also bought I would be able to perform most milling operations.

The machine arrived on the agreed delivery date and the guy delivering it was very helpful. Anyway some months later I decided I needed to perform a simple light milling operation, total dissaster, the slide and vice were so badly machined you could not cut anything with any degree of accuracy at all. I ended up buying a proper milling machine. Some months after that I wanted to cut some standard imperial threads, no chance. My machine had been supplied only capable of cutting metric threads, in order to cut imperial I would need a different set of change gears to the ones supplied. I thought no problem I will call Chester and ask what they reccomend, they promised to call me back with a solution, I'm still waiting. In the mean time a member of staff from an alternative supplier read my problems from this forum and offered to sell me the change gear that I needed, and at a competitive price.

So based on my experience, if I were to re-invest in machinery I would buy from Arc Eurotrade, they provide advice for free, and offer a good level of support (I have read) to their cutomers, their equipment may be a little dearer (not much if at all) but it is in my opinion, that it is so much better to deal with people who will be there when you need something.

I have no connections with any of the companies mentioned other than as a customer (potential customer).

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

On this forum, we get an awful lot of beginners asking for advice on buying a Mini Lathe. This is because they offer one of the most inexpensive routes into hobby engineering, having a good capacity and capabilities in a smaller 'benchtop' machine.

The bewildering choice of machines makes it hard for a beginner, with no previous experience, to choose a suitable machine. The following is an extract from my book Mini Lathes that tries to offer some advice on what to look for when choosing one of these machines.

Part 1 – The Variety of Mini Lathes

When looking at various models of mini-lathe you will be struck by the many versions of the ‘same’ lathe available. Mini-lathes come out of a number of factories in China, and each factory supplies many importers around the world. The commonest are those made by SIEG in Shanghai – the C2, C3 and Super C3, but these are often ‘badge engineered’ and painted in the colours of the importer (figs 4.1, 4.2, 4.3). Others are made by concerns such as Real Bull but all have their roots in the same original design. In the UK importers include Chester with their off-white Conquest, Warco’s Mini-Lathe in their house green, Clarke’s signal yellow CL300M, Arc Euro Trade’s machines in SIEG maroon and Axminster in white and aqua. In the United States there are several further variations, notably from Grizzly (green) and Harbour Freight, again in Seig factory colours. Aussie have started importing SIEG lathes into Australia. There are many other importers in the UK and around the world. There are other importers with good reputations.

Though they are all produced to the same basic design, there are detail differences, from built in tachometers to the quality of the set-up. All these machines are fundamentally solidly and accurately built, and while they may lack some features, within the limits of their capacity they are capable of producing first class results. Don’t be dazzled by this rainbow of colours. If you decide on a buying a mini-lathe, I suggest you do two things: First decide what specification you want, second, find a supplier who sells a machine to that spec who you feel comfortable with. Buy from a reputable dealer that specifically serves model engineers, and be confident that you will get the same sales service as if you had bought a relatively huge machine costing much more.

Some machines are marketed by the same company at different levels of specification, for example Warco’s Super Mini-lathe is 350mm between centres – 50mm longer than the standard machine, it has a brushed 550w motor – 150w more powerful than their standard machine and it has digital rev. counter fitted (fig 4.4). The Super Mini-lathe tailstock features an over centre cam operated lock which is easier to use compared to the standard spanner and nut adjustment and the tailstock base is twice the length thereby allowing for greater stability.

Another choice you will find is between the C3-type machines, with a brushed DC motor and a geared spindle, and the Super C3 machines which have a brushless DC motor of greater power. The C2 was an earlier version with a shorter bed and less powerful brushed motor. The fundamental dimensions and operation of all the different types of mini-lathes are essentially similar.

More in Part 2

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would suggest a 10mm shank boring bar that takes comes with a CCMT 06$$$$ inset such as this and also buy a specific aluminium insert with a small tip radius to go with it which will have the code CCGT 060202 such as these

You don't actually need a 13mm hole to start with as it is possible to open up a smaller one or as they are end cutting you can start with a flat surface but it just takes longer.

Use with a bit of paraffin to stop metal sticking to the corner of the insert.

A few drills first can save time as has been said

 

Edited By JasonB on 08/09/2018 13:35:20

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Why are you holding a boring bar in a drill chuck? Far from being as robustly held…

I use a 10mm boring bar with 6mm inserts..

Have a look here….  https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Cutting-Tools/Lathe-Turning-Tools-Indexable/ARC-Indexable-Turning-Tools/ARC-S-SCLC-R-95-Boring-Tool-Holders

Edited By John Rudd on 08/09/2018 12:06:51

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Mark, Ketan already stocks the lathe file and the No3 finishing file. Show him the colour of your money

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by JasonB on 06/09/2018 10:09:28:

Sam what is the radius on the internal edge? As John says you may be able to use a roundover bit but my only worry is as you said about a form tool in that the width of cut becomes quite wide and you may get chatter or work hardening on the stainless, OK if it were ali or brass as even router cutters will work on that if held in the tool post.

jason

Thanks I have just followed the link, I had looked on other sites & was looking for the wrong thing as I came up with something very £££'s. I could go with that though, as it is not overly expensive & I can hold the part in the mill.

As an aside what RPM would you recommend as a start on 303 stainless using the one with 6mm radius cutter?

Thanks

Still would be interested to know how to grind a cutter for a one off though as one would not want to buy a milling cutter for a single job if one did not need to

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 06/09/2018 11:10:34

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sam what is the radius on the internal edge? As John says you may be able to use a roundover bit but my only worry is as you said about a form tool in that the width of cut becomes quite wide and you may get chatter or work hardening on the stainless, OK if it were ali or brass as even router cutters will work on that if held in the tool post.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Guy,

Neil's book is available through Arc Euro, look in their book section. It is well written and will certainly give you a good start on what will be an absorbing new interest for you. I would agree with the advice above though, read first as a cheap start before you take a plunge and learn by experience, make some swarf for example until you have some understanding of what does what

After that a course, if you still feel you need it, would be of benefit. I don't have direct experience but others speak highly of the Axminster courses but they cost a fair proportion of a lathe purchase; as will any other which does professional grade training.

Regards

Brian

[Anonymous]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 29/08/2018 11:18:06:

I for one, prefer to use this HSS-Co8 arrangement. As Andrew would ask: Are you a man or a mouse. In this particular case, I am a mouse.

One can still be a man with HSS tooling.

My repetition lathe uses 1/8" by 5/16" HSS blades for parting off. I've been parting off a lot of steel 11mm AF hex recently while making batches of nuts and bolts. Interestingly the overhang of the toolbit is 3/4" at the start of the cut, which will no doubt cause a group of experts to fall off their chairs tut-tutting and saying it'll never work. The resultant swarf measures 10 thou thick, so a reasonable feedrate, albeit by hand so it probably varies a bit.

Andrew

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

These products are a little bit like Marmite. There are many factors involved. I for one, prefer to use this HSS-Co8 arrangement. As Andrew would ask: Are you a man or a mouse. In this particular case, I am a mouse.

Here are a few points:

1. The carbide products were/are originally made for use on CNC machines, which are:

• more rigid in all aspects than most of the manual machines we use
• run much faster than the manual machines we use… which is ideal for carbide tooling

2. There is far more vibration on manual machines, combined with 'lower' max speeds. This results in more 'rubbing' of the carbide inserts, and chipping of finer radius cutting tip.

3. The holder for these inserts:

• The high end holders (or shank in which the insert is held) for these inserts are made from carbide or similar exotic material. The general purpose holders for parting applications are made from various types/grades of steel….still, for CNC applications. See this Sumitomo link. They make both – carbide holders (SumiGrip) and steel holders (SumiGrip Jr.).
• The steel used in the Sumitomo holder is of a particular 'great' specification which they do not disclose, but it is very expensive. So, Sumitomo cut-off tools are not in ARCs range, as most of our customers would prefer to buy cheaper solutions for their purpose of use.
• The ones which are brown in colour which ARC supply for this purpose, are made from a good grade of alloy spring steel. This is not to be confused with certain other competitors which may have the same colour, which may or may not be the same material.
• The third type of holder for such purpose – black is yet another grade – which may or may not be more brittle.

Keeping the above points in mind, the results of use will be variable, based on:

A. Rigidity of the machine

B. Ability of user – new users – better to direct them to HSS, as chances of breakages increase.

C. Willingness, confidence 'to be strong' with positive engagement at the higher end of the machines speed spectrum, PROVIDED you have a manual machine which can handle it with low vibration, based on the material being parted off (soft/hard). Anyone can be willing and confident when carrying out this process on a correctly adjusted mini-lathe, on non-ferrous material such as aluminium or brass. As the material to be parted off becomes harder or dirty, things start getting interesting. The late John S, and our esteemed editor Neil and their likes were/are happy using carbide based parting off tools on a variety of materials on their lathes. Me, on the other hand, am happier with the HSS Co8 arrangement linked to above.

In conclusion, each user has their own experience, based on the above. Crank up the feed and speed?

Ketan at ARC.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

If I buy one of Ketan's SLTBN parting tool holders and bolt it down rigidly through the tongue onto a block at the back of the headstock with the blade in upside down does this sound like a recipe for disaster? Would I be better with the holder upside down as well, even if it does make getting at the securing screws a lot harder?

**LINK**

[Gordon Smith 1Participant @gordonsmith1]

Go to Halfords and get a bottle of ISO32 jack hydraulic oil.

Arc Euro also sell ISO 32 and 68 oils in 1 Litre bottles.

Edited By Gordon Smith 1 on 28/08/2018 17:27:47

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

I fitted an AXA 100 (Aloris Clone) to my WM250 and had to remove the raised section of the top-slide as the wedge style AXA cannot be bored out. ARC do an *** AXA 000 *** which is a bit smaller and probably right for your WM180, check the centre height / tool height to be sure. Details of how I did mine ***HERE *** If you do go for this type of toolpost don't buy a set but get the toolpost and some standard holders. The holders in the sets are not all useful!

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by David Smith 42 on 27/08/2018 19:58:29:

… Think I may have bought some rubbish? …

Possibly, but more likely if you're a beginner, it's something else, for example:

• Tool at wrong height
• Depth of cut too deep or too shallow
• rpm too high or too low
• Feed rate too high or too low
• Material obnoxious! Quite a lot of scrap and DIY store metal is horrible and won't machine well. (Soft sticky aluminium, ornamental steel, stainless steel, copper, and hard steel & other alloys are all best avoided.)
• Wrong tip shape for the material & type of cut.

Another issue might be blunt brazed carbide tipped tools looking like these. I don't get on with this type of tool compared with HSS or carbide inserts. But the big booby trap is some (not all) are supplied unsharpened and you need a special grinding wheel to touch them up before use.

As a beginner HSS sets like this example arrive ready to go and the knives are easily kept in shape with an ordinary grinder. With practice it's possible to grind HSS blanks to shape yourself. Not everyone has the knack of sharpening HSS and carbide indexed insert tooling might be easier.

Can you explain in more detail what you have and what the problem is? A photo of the tool against the work would be good. If you're self-taught (as I am), be prepared to experiment. Not rocket science exactly, but there's a fair amount to learn before you get good results.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Posted by David Taylor on 27/08/2018 00:37:53:

What do offset and radial machining mean, and what is a backplotting program?

I don't have a high speed spindle. Do you think it makes much difference? You're spinning the cutter almost 5 times faster than I can.

If you look closely at the bottom of the ring where the lettering is the toolmarks are radial to the centre of the plate. So the tool path tries to cut always on a radial. This makes sense for a shape like this and is quicker than other options. At each level a clean up pass is made that profiles the circular edges and round each letter to clean up areas not covered by the radial toolpath. However, when pocketing out the internals, for example the letter O, a radial toolpath isn't appropriate. I initially used a radial toolpath because the operations were cut 'n' paste from the first toolpath. The area to be removed is small so a radial toolpath does a lot of small movements as the pocket is not truly round. An offset toolpath enters somewhere in the middle of the pocket and then moves outwards in a series of parallel paths, the distance per sideways step being set in the CAM program. I set it at 75% of tool diameter. Although the change of toolpath only saved a few seconds per pocket that adds up over the number of letters that have internal cavities and over five levels to get the final depth. It probably saved 15 minutes or more overall.

A backplotting program reads in the G-code and plots the toolpath from it. That is different from CAM programs that display the toolpath they think they will use based on geometry, rather than that generated by the G-code the CAM program generates. Although not common I have had issues where the toolpath represented by the G-code was not the same as the toolpath the CAM system thought it was using. The backplotting program also gives a sanity check on maximum travels in each axis so you can double check there are no unauthorised moves outside of the machining envelope that will let the tool hit clamps or mill into the table. I use a program called NCPlot. I bought my version, a few hundred US dollars; they may do a simpler free version?

Some years ago I spent a lot of time trying engraving on the Tormach. The results were a failure and I came to the conclusion that the spindle speed simply wasn't high enough. I dithered over a high speed spindle for quite a while. Then I noticed that ArcEuroTrade had stopped selling them. Fortunately I was able to do a deal to buy a demo unit plus inverter. Mounting the inverter and wiring was simple, but I had all sorts of issues with the odd Chinese connector on the motor itself. In the end I binned it and bought a proper shielded connector of similar size from RS. So not a straightforward installation, even for a professional electronics engineer!

There are two reasons why the high speed spindle is essential, in my view for small cutters. The chip load I ran on the nameplate milling was about 0.005mm per tooth. At 5000rpm that would be a feedrate of 60mm/min. So the machining time would have been nearly seven hours per nameplate. For me that's not acceptable. When I modelled the bevel gears for my governor at 5000rpm the machine time was nearly 20 hours per gear. The other issue is to do with axis movement. I think the resolution per step of the Tormach is on the order of a tenth or so. But when setting up I find I can make several clicks on the jog console without the axis moving. Then when it does move the distance may be bigger than the nominal step size. For a small cutter running at slow speed that can be a significant variation in chip load, resulting in broken cutters. I suspect that was my basic problem with the engraving trials. If the cutter is running much faster with a consequent increase in feedrate then any small inconsistencies in the axis movement are proportionally much smaller and less likely to break the cutter. So far I've got about 40 hours of machine time with 1mm cutters, and I've only broken one, where I boo-boo'd on the vertical offset and it was trying to cope with a DOC of 0.5mm and full width.

Personally I find the high speed spindle essential for small cutters. Whether it is of use for you will depend upon the type of machining you are likely to be doing.

Now off to do an aircraft inspection, and then I'm afternoon tug pilot.

Andrew

[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

ARC MGEH one piece clamp type Parting & Grooving Tool Holders

Suitable for external grooving, parting, turning, relieving, profiling.

Each tool holder includes:

• MGMN200 TiN coated insert
• Hex Key

Hi Robin

Can you see the left arrow above the grooving arrow?

This tool can take small cuts side to side.

Cheers Michael.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

After a spot of parting off unpleasantness:

I had to buy a new tool. The one I went for came from Arc Euro Trade – pretty much a direct replacement for the Glanze:

This works very well, but I wondered about the other design of holder Arc offer:

I don't understand why the first type is advertised as a parting tool only, but the second as a parting and grooving tool. Can anyone enlighten me about the functional differences of these two designs of bit holder?

Robin

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

If this is a brushless-motor equiped lathe, then I'd expect it to be set up to drive the headstock spindle directly without going through the more usual Hi/Low gears.

As shown here, picture from Arceurotrade Mini-Lathe stripdown:

[jimmy bParticipant @jimmyb]

Quick update!

I've just got back from Arceurotrade with **LINK**

Jim

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Ian,
I don't have trouble with condensation in my workshop but when the motor failed on my Seig X3 mill Arc Euro suspected it could have been caused by dampness so I clamped two heat sink resistors to the new motor together with a thermostat using jubilee clips. I use a 12 lighting transformer to feed them in the winter. If you can get some old 12 volt lighting transformers you could connect 3 in series to get 36 volts. (NOTE. If connecting them in series they must be real transformers. Not the electronic ones that seem to be sold now. You can use the electronic ones as long as you do not try to connect them in series or parallel.) For the chuck you could bolt one to a suitable lump of metal that could be clamped in the chuck. A piece of thick walled aluminium pipe that extended inside the chuck would probably be the best way.

Les.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello John,

peak4 [Bill] gave you a useful thread, it is worth reading through and to blow my own trumpet a little, my book is also available via Arc Euro at £12.50 plus postage. It gives set up tables for other pitches than metric on Myford and other lathes in that size range.

For now though, fit a 34T gear instead of the 24T, set the gearbox controls to give 36 tpi and the lathe will cut a pitch of 0.999 mm. You don't need to disturb the wide 72 gear into the gearbox

Regards

Brian

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Sieg SC3 offered by the likes of Arceurotrade…reason….reliabilty of the electrics

That's the rub with modern units, the electrics are a real, and potentially very expensive, lottery

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Looks very much like the Warco WM180….

Still has the dc motor with probably a Chinese version of the KB controller….

Although I dont have any direct experience of the machine, for the sort of money your paying I'd avoid it and spend a bit more on the Sieg SC3 offered by the likes of Arceurotrade…reason….reliabilty of the electrics. I have one and it does serve its purpose….reliably…

Edited By John Rudd on 21/08/2018 19:58:06

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The chances are, if Warco cannot supply, that the gears from a similar machine will do the job.

Find out the spec, bore, Module (OD / (T +2), width, keyway etc. then look form potential sources.

Little Machine Shop certainly quote a complete set for Seig SC4, (and give dimensions), Arc Euro may well carry spares for their machines, as, no doubt would Chester and Axminster.

I believe that Seig supply machines to more than one UK importer, although I think that Warco may use Real Bull (CHECK!), in which case it is possible that some dimensions may differ.

Have no no knowledge of Amadeal or A M D, so no comment, but could be a possible source.

Howard

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

Andrew, I'm aware of the distinction between advice and an opinion hence my comment that advice is generally subjective. But you are correct of course in that subjective/personal advice =opinion. Unqualified advice is only possible, as you state, with a complete analysis of every vice available and as per SOD's post a full understanding of the users requirements and machinery. Hence the futility of such questions as "what is the best lathe" appearing occasionally. Clearly from your postings your work tends to be large, mine's further down the scale so a good example of differing requirements.

Any way, the object of this post is not to get into semantics, plenty of that already, but to point out another option that I'd overlooked despite owning one. "Precision vice no.2" from Arc Eurotrade. I have a small hand shaper for which I required a low profile vice and have been more than pleased with that purchase. It has the benefit of no jaw lift and a large capacity. Available in different sizes and reasonably priced. Again a company with exemplary customer service.