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[KWILParticipant @kwil]

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Overheard at the Sandown Park MEEX, that this Forum is populated by "Armchair Model Engineers".. Discuss

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Something I have said for a long while.

Incomming……………………………………

[John RuddParticipant @johnrudd16576]

Sticks and stones….. Buddy!

i couldn't care less what people think of me personally, life is too short and so is this reply.

but that said, the forum does provide a lot of info and help….

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

Well into my B1 but I do like to sit at my desk and brows this site

Bob

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

This forum will be whatever you make of it

Some people avoid ME clubs because of politiks and personalities

c'est la vie

The great thing about the netty is that even if you live in the middle of nowhere you can still participate

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Comments obviously made by navel (and ME Forum) gazing armchair critics, 'people who live in glass houses' and 'Sour grapes' comes to mind!

Every forum such as this has its fair share of 'armchair engineers', many of whom are so because they have no alternative due to age and other physical limitations, but it doesn't stop them offering much valued and appreciated advice!

In fact one frequent poster on this very forum has stated quite openly he hates armchair model engineers, which for me, totally undermined his considerable contribution to this forum!

"In my own personal experience", individuals that utter complete crap like that are the same anal toads that gather in their nasty little cliques and get model engineering clubs a bad name causing many a youngster (and those not so young) to feel both unwelcome and inadequate!

John.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

At least in here you can avoid the negative elements and focus on the useful productive interesting bits

Negative or irrelevant posts can be scrolled across and the most appropriate helpful posts absorbed

At the end of the day it's only a bunch of old guys opinions, the relevancy of which will vary from reader to reader

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Posted by Ady1 on 16/12/2013 11:13:56:

At the end of the day it's only a bunch of old guys opinions, the relevancy of which will vary from reader to reader

Unfortunately Ady1, those opinions aren't confined exclusively to 'a bunch of old guys', some of those 'critics' are only half way to retirement!

John.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Well the young feisty folk are bound to spice things up sometimes, I don't know any youngsters anymore really

Got a WW2 veterans funeral tomorrow. 2 days "survivor leave" after getting blown out of the water on the way to Aberdeen(lucky once) then shipped off to Singapore, ships turned back a few days before Singapore because it surrendered(lucky twice) then 50% of them got shipped to the Jungle in Burma and the lucky half including him got Egypt(lucky thrice !)

He had an interesting story about after the Victory in the Desert war

The British Army took a load of used artillery and armour across the Suez and into the middle of nowhere in the Sinai Desert and handed it over to the Jewish chappies

They did it all at night, and rested up in the daytime so the Egyptians couldn't observe

Edited By Ady1 on 16/12/2013 11:40:26

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Took day off today as I have to use up leave by end of year. Absolutely /insert rude word/ with rain. Sitting in ARMCHAIR in front of nice wood burning stove reading forum and a 1902 volume of ME. Yes I know I should be digging the foundations for new shed but this fire is so nice and warm……….

Ady, nice to know my father was shot at with British supplied weapons in Palestine. Still if not he might not have been in hospital to eventually meet my mother.

Edited By Bazyle on 16/12/2013 12:18:07

[FMESParticipant @fmes]

Yes, I freely admit it, I DO sit in an armchair when I'm reading the forum posts.

Terribly decadent

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello,

Interesting viewpoint. As someone who is an "outsider" I have to say that the model engineering world is quite possibly one of the most unwelcoming and discourteous I have ever come across.

I have had a lathe, mill, welding equipment etc and have been making things for many years. Since I was a teenager in fact. I am trained in engineering and spent a lot of my life in the aircraft industry. Despite all this I have never felt that the ME magazine was aimed at me and I still feel that way.

Now in my 40s, I have finally taken the plunge and become a part of this forum as I can put up with the pedants in exchange for the useful and helpful information passed on by those who are amenable to teaching and sharing.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Carl,

You would be surprised by how many times I hear this when I meet people who have workshops.

Many have visited their local clubs but found out that unless you are building loco's or prepared to run them on club days you don't fit.

OTOH many don't know the clubs exist and are desperate for a helping hand, the internet is fine but hands on face to face works a lot better.

I know one guy who is now a firm friend and travels from the back of beyond about twice a year just to have a day sharing ideas that started as emails and a bit of hands on. I reciprocate about twice a year as well, hopefully as things slow down it may be more often.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I am really disappointed by the adverse comments about clubs made above. Nothing could be further from the truth as I think the 'brotherhood' expressed in the book Trustee from the Toolroom really does exist.

Every club I have ever made contact with has been friendly. At Sandown I spent half an hour after closing chatting with a member from the Carterbury stand who invited me along if I could get there. At the Taunton show last year I was able to meet a different set of clubs from the regulars at the London shows and every single one extended a friendly invitation to visit. Next September i will be visiting Australia and finding the relevant guys in Melbourne will be on the list of activities (so you've got 9 months to build a track

Of course it is possible to get off on the wrong foot if you turn up and collar the first person you see who might just be very busy or the sort of person who does have difficulty with social interaction or flumoxed by detail questions about the club. However if you ask to be pointed to a committee member they will be pleased to help you.

Yes, I am the Membership Sec for St Albans DMES and you are all welcome but don't worry there is no pressure to pay up and join we just like meeting fellow modellers and engineers. (Existing members though I want your subs in January)

Edited By Bazyle on 16/12/2013 13:30:49

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello John,

I would tend to agree strongly with your comments. I had my engineering training and education in the Royal Air Force. There was a great emphasis on teaching and passing on knowledge. Indeed, as I progressed through the ranks teaching became so important that I was to do specific courses and modules on it.

When I left the military and started working in civilian industry the difference couldn't have been starker; here I found a "knowledge is power" culture. I have worked hard to change this. In my view, if I know one more thing than the guy standing next to me, I'm going to tell him that thing.

The model engineering world suffers from this condition to a great degree. There are lots of individuals who proudly state that they "do not suffer fools". Not knowing something does not make one a fool.

I am currently trying to compose an email to the ME magazine editorial staff. The ME is not worth it's cover price in my opinion. Drawn out serialisations of loco construction projects, one after the other, ad infinitum. Absolutely nobody is going to learn anything from this, with perhaps the occasional exception of an interesting set up in a photograph, sometimes in the background. Most people who want to build a loco are already doing so and do not need to follow these articles. I doubt whether anyone even is doing. Added to this, the articles are not particularly well written or informative and the photographs often leave a great deal to be desired. As an aside, many of the Workshop Practice series of books suffer from this flaw, perhaps because they've been culled from ME or MEW articles.

Rather than trawling through a loco construction article looking for interesting set ups or something that we can employ in our own workshops, lets have shorter more informative articles that are stand alone; when one of your usual contributors is building a loco and they devise an interesting set up, lets have that as a one to two page article. How to set up a milling vice or a rotary table, something that perplexes many. That might make a couple of pages. TIG welding and TIG brazing are techniques coming into this hobby, we could have something on that.

As a magazine it is unique in having almost nothing to READ.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello Bazyle,

I just saw your post and felt I had to reply, purely because you have read "Trustee from the Toolroom"! What a fantastic author Nevil Shute was. I would recommend his books to anyone with an interest in engineering. Shute was himself an Aeronautical Engineer and worked on the R100 airship. Later on he formed his own Aircraft Manufacturing company, Airspeed. One of his books, Round The Bend, includes a mention of one of his own aircraft, the AIrspeed Ferry.

Shute often included an engineering element in his work as he was a great believer in "write what you know". As well as this, he is without doubt one of the finest observers and chroniclers of the vagaries of human emotion that I have ever read.

I don't agree with your views on clubs I'm afraid. They are a closed shop in my experience.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 16/12/2013 13:46:20

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Bazyle,

With all due respect you are a loco guy, one of those that the clubs are built around and therefore you will fit in.

What about a beginner who approaches with an interest in say some new techniques like CNC ?

Carl,

One of the best books I have 'read' [ well looked at the pretty pictures ] is a Treatise on Milling by Brown and Sharpe.

The first chapters are on how to set up work in the vice, dividing heads etc, all text book stuff, but later on in the book are actual machining photographs of various jobs where you get to see in the flesh [ is that word allowed here by the PC police ? ] just what was explained in earlier chapters.

I often think a book purely of photographs of different setup's is worth far more than the beginners books that just reiterate the same old.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hi John,

Thank you for taking the time out to pass on that information. I'm alright with setting up my tooling but I know that it can be a puzzling thing for people who are just starting out. Especially when many buy equipment from Arc, Chester etc and you get very little in the way of useful accessories with these machines.

I think the ME would be a good place to pass on this kind of thing.

While we are on the subject of book recommendations, I have found both these very useful:-

Basic Machining Reference Handbook – Meyers/Slattery – Industrial Press:- a great book full of how to's for when you haven't done something in a while and you have forgotten the process…happens to me a lot!

Machine Shop Trade Secrets – JA Harvey – Industrial Press:- Lots of great machining hints, tricks and tips from a chap who was an injection mould maker. Very good for the beginner and experienced alike.

Both of the above books are American so expect the usual slight differences in terminology etc, they are though extremely useful.

My two mainstays are from my training days, Workshop Practice Vol. 1 and 2 by Dr WA Chapman.

[Bob PerkinsParticipant @bobperkins67044]

Hmmm. Has anybody published an article on building model armchair, or have I misread the thread?

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Thanks for that useful and informative post that has added to and enriched the debate.

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

Carl,

cannot agree more with you on your opinion of Neville Shute. I have recently re-read nearly all his books, excellent stories, excellent portrayals of the world as it used to be, and, with reference to another thread on here regarding bad language, his stories never had to use bad language to tell the story. Sadly, his stories relate to a world now long gone, more's the pity!

Chris

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Posted by Bob Perkins on 16/12/2013 15:56:30:

Hmmm. Has anybody published an article on building model armchair, or have I misread the thread?

Bearing in mind the reaction to having some very interesting dolls houses at an ME show years back I don't think anyone would dare. Dioramas of (steam driven) workshops do seem to be accepted so perhaps a scene from a chair factory is worth a try.

John, I'm not just a loco guy having 3 boats and two clocks on the bench too and the club is 50% boats, 50% locos, 50% other stuff like clocks and cranes etc.. CNC yes well played with steppers back in '83 but couldn't afford the big ones when even the smallest for a home robot cost a tenner.

I think that some armchair engineering ie research by reading all the ME articles even if seemingly not relevant is always worthwhile. The information can be absorbed subconciously and is more practical than text book versions and maybe in ten years time your interests will have changed.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

"When I left the military and started working in civilian industry the difference couldn't have been starker; here I found a "knowledge is power" culture."

Then the Internet was born.

My Great Uncle, who was a very fine engineer, had a real mental blockage when it came to telling me some of the "trade secrets" because he was real Old School and my cousin has the same mentality, a great Toolmaker but he just does not get the fact that his knowledge is also known by others and if you ask nicely on a forum such as this – you will get to know too! all things being equal.

I don't build Model Trains though I will be building an engine or two as time goes on. I like model Aero Engines, I have several. With this debate regarding the Model Engineers and just Engineers (I make a loose distinction, some want to build model trains and engines and good on them too, I can appreciate that, and some of us are trying to actually make something completely unrelated) it reminds me of the Model Aeroplane fliers and Model Helicopter fliers.

Some twelve years ago when I decided to buy and build my first Model Helicopter I looked around for a Club and advice. I was shocked to find that Model Helicopter fliers were banned from the Flying fields of the "Plank" fliers. The pure Vitriol spouted by some of the entrenched "veterans" was just appalling and I was subjected to this repulsive attitude on several occasions.

Where are these clubs now? By and large, finished. There are a couple still hanging around and STILL trying to be elitist, but walk past ant toy shop and for less than twenty pounds you can buy a helicopter that you can fly IN YOUR HOME! Instant gratification, interest of flying satisfied, book closed on that chapter. The perfect storm.

I see it now, John Stevenson is at the sharp end – 3D printing. As far as Home/Model/Hobby engineering is concerned the Perfect Storm is heading our way. Why bother learn? Just press PRINT!

I agree, not today, but soon. And then the legacy that will be left by the Anal Retentives? None, Nothing, Nada. Stories, that is what we will have, and not an engineer in sight.

By and large I enjoy this forum and the people here are quite generous with their time, but nothing is forever. I would agree with Carl. There does need to be more "how to's" and a more diverse spread of articles. But this is not just directed towards Model Engineering. This is directed at ANY sphere of life which is resting on it's Laurels. Some people around here just want to learn and I would respectfully suggest that in some things I am pretty Hot Stuff, but NEVER too Old/Arrogant/Ignorant to learn.

graham.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Posted by Bazyle on 16/12/2013 17:39:09:

I think that some armchair engineering ie research by reading all the ME articles even if seemingly not relevant is always worthwhile. The information can be absorbed subconciously and is more practical than text book versions and maybe in ten years time your interests will have changed.

I agree that research is important but I do not see the pages of the ME as particularly fertile research material, regardless of my interests. There is simply not enough information contained within them. Whether or not this is down to editing I do not know. What I can say is that if the contributors are attempting to obscure the details of what they are doing then they are doing an excellent job.

Other articles promise much and deliver nothing. Don Allen's superb Union Pacific locomotive. Did we see it's internals or hear about how he overcame the various constructional challenges, and even what these challenges were? That would have made a subject for a follow up article. Likewise, we recently saw an excellent Tiger tank. The builder had gone on to construct a prototypical engine and transmission. The mechanism is the heart of the model, but we will not see it or read about how it was built.

So no, I won't be using the ME for research anytime soon.

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