JCB and Hydrogen Power

[Neil AParticipant @neila]

My son has just sent me this link to a video about JBC’s approach to powering their machinery in the future. They do not consider battery power to be a viable alternative to diesel power. It’s a very good video and discusses many of the problems associated with using hydrogen. It will be interesting to see how it develops.

Their Hydromax car managed 406.32 mph on the Bonneville Salt Flats recently.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

That’s awesome, Neil

Thanks for sharing it.

MichaelG.

[David AmbroseParticipant @davidambrose86182]

In the broader scheme of things JCB are probably right, but here is a Caterpillar battery electric excavator in Oslo last week.  They are mandatory in the city centre.

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

JCB are a fantastic company, I’ve done their UK factory tour and their success over the past 80 years is hugely impressive.

Whether they have called this one right remains to be seen, as noted other manufacturers are producing and using electric heavy plant and indeed JCB themselves offer an electric range so they are not putting their eggs in one basket. They trade worldwide so it will depend not only on the technology and application but the local market and whether hydrogen can be economically produced and transported to the job site. Operator comfort is also a factor, the electric range having less NVH so interesting times ahead.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Development is one thing, but anything that uses other than “green” Hydrogen is not helping to mitigate climare change.  Only when fossils are no longer used (to produce the Hydrogen) will it be a viable and acceptable alternative.

[not done it yet]

On not done it yet Said:

Development is one thing, but anything that uses other than “green” Hydrogen is not helping to mitigate climare change.  Only when fossils are no longer used (to produce the Hydrogen) will it be a viable and acceptable alternative.

…Which makes the discussion about India highly significant.

MichaelG.

[JuddyParticipant @juddy]

the alternative and more realistic approach is Bio methane from farm and other waste along with the New Holland methane powered tractor and Iveco trucks. Farms do also sell gas to the British gas grid. This provides a true environmental circular green fuel with no fossil fuel use.

https://bennamann.com/

https://agriculture.newholland.com/en-gb/europe/products/agricultural-tractors/t6-methane-power

https://www.iveco-dealership.co.uk/natural-gas

At the moment the limitation for alternative fuels such as hydrogen and methane is the amount that can be carried on a vehicle to provide enough range giving a long working day without refueling. Tractors work at high output for long periods, there is no light throttle cruising when working a field, so energy density of the fuel matters, Diesel at the moment is still king. Gas fuels just don’t have the energy content that diesel does but its getting there slowly.

What JCB don’t tell you is the hydrogen consumption (and tank pressure) needed to meet the same output as diesel. Don’t mention the danger of leaks!!!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Does it need a significantly higher pressure or have a higher leak risk than what you might find if you walk into a Toyota dealers and order a Mirai which you can have right now. Just not so easy to find a refil in the UK as it is in Europe.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

J C B are very advanced in their thinking, just look at the records that have set. Not necessarily practicable machines, but in producing such phenominaly advanced machines, they will have learned a great deal that can be used in future products.

A former colleague of mine was in charge of the Diesel Max project, and they really pushed the basics to the limit of what wa possible with current materials and techniques.

Having dealt with some of their products and engineers, at Uttoxeter, they are a force to be reckoned with. What they do is worth watching!

Howard

[JuddyParticipant @juddy]

You need the high pressure to give a volume of gas without having to have large cylinders, hydrogen does not have the energy density of other fuels so you need to burn more to produce the same power. even in fuel cells. Methane CNC & LPG tanks will vent as the temperature changes and the tank pressure rises. The vehicles cannot be stored inside buildings or maintained in a workshop unless the space has gas detectors and sufficient ATEX extraction to deal with gas clouds.

Hydrogen I would suspect does not vent, but on a vehicle subject to vibration and normal day to day wear over years the danger of leaks is real and dangerous. Probably ok as a new vehicle but 5+ years 100,000 miles not so sure. The tanks will come under the Pressure system regulations for inspection and testing as well.

This is all doable but the efficiency, range and practicality isn’t at diesel levels yet.

I have been deeply involved with the manufacture, testing, refueling, storage and shipping of methane powered vehicles.   We did have a hydrogen prototype but found its range very limited with the amount of gas that could be safely carried at reasonable pressures.

The Mirai tank pressure is 700bar+ good luck with that

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Toyota say upto 400miles range for the Miria which is not too bad and what a lot of petrol and electric cars might do and about double what I could expect from my Subaru from a tank full. Also better than my Diesel Kia

Don’t we see more than 700bar in a Diesel system? The Extream H race cars also run a 700bar tank and having seen a few of those crash the cell stays intact. Also Hydrogen trucks racing in Dakar and other W2RC events which can take a bashing

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Hydrogen fuel can have a different purpose as low emissions in urban use. There used to be talk of hydride for storge in vehicles??? Can vented H2 be ‘burned’ with a catalyst on its way out?
I would expect farm machinery to use a biodiesel – grow your own on site?

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

JCB’s use case for H2 powered equipment is in areas that don’t have infrastructure to support charging electric vehicles. Can’t class methane in the same category as it still produces CO2 etc. Air breathing H2 combustion systems can produce NOx emissions depending on temperatures but that can be dealt with.
People say a lot about H2 leaks but we ran the country on a H2 / CO mix for decades AKA town gas.

Andy was on the BBC news this morning. He now has the outright land speed record, first supersonic record fastest diesel, fastest tractor and fastest H2 powered. The last 3 were with JCB. I was part of the Thrust SSC team. I do wonder how much of the design and possibly parts of DieselMax went into HydroMax.

Robert.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I am old enough to remember the coal gas storage – extending sacks, filled regularly from the coking plants.  Definitely low pressure storage!  Pressurised locally, I’m guessing, before being delivered to the local consumers at low pressure?

Not quite the same as 700Bar storage for delivery.

Hydrogen produced from electrolysis (green hydrogen) is sooo much less efficient than using the electricity that it loses out big time.

Maybe when there is a surplus of renewable energy, hydrogen might be useful for some processes (steel manufacture?).  Until then it will remain as a low energy density and efficiency fuel, produced from polluting fossils.  Not what we want in these days of climate change.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

We have come a long way, surprisingly rapidly

.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/gas-bag-car.html?blackwhite=1&sortBy=relevant

.

MichaelG.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

See this Substack essay for an alternative view.

https://simonrockman.substack.com/p/the-hydrogen-fool-sell

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Hydrogen is still the preferred fuel of the guys who like to collect the early engines often with external flame ignition that would have run on town or illuminating gas, this is the delivery for the Coolsprings Show in the US.

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

An interesting essay, John … Bit I suspect that India might probe him wrong:

The case, made very briefly in the video, is surely valid and the rewards would be high.

MichaelG.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I seem to remember reading that some years ago Germany was using excess wind generated electricity to produce hydrogen which they pumped into the gas main. Might not be efficient, but if the electricity is effectively free if might be a go-er. Some time later I read that to avoid putting too much hydrogen in they were looking at converting the hydrogen to methane. Might be better than paying windmill operators not to produce, which is what we do.

All will be much better when we extend the grid to connect areas with lots of wind  (no I don’t mean Westminster) to areas with areas with lots of demand, but of course the same people who object to nuclear also object to pylons and windfarms.

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

It’s all possible if the economics work, but it is cheaper and easier now just store excess electricity in batteries and use it later than to go through all the stages of electrolysis, compression, cooling etc associated with making Hydrogen so no free source there.

The land speed effort has brought JCB good publicity, but will it translate into significant sales? I don’t know, wait and see.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

On the subject of pressures, Common Rail Fuel Injection systems operate at anything from 1500 bar, and probably upwards, now.

But the volume of fuel stored is comparatively small, although extremely dangerous.

When a common rail fitted engine was on test, no one was allowed to enter the test cell, in case of any leaks.

(Those who “felt” the spray from an old fashioned injectors (Still used in older engines) risked blood poisoning, since even 120 bar can penetrate the skin)

It is possible to reinforce gas cylinders by winding wire tightly around them to cope with some of the hoop stresses.

Howard

 

[JAParticipant @ja]

I read that China has found a gas field of natural Hydrogen with a purity greater than 95%. I know the French believe they have such a gas field in the Auvergne and that gas from a small field in Mali is being used to generate electricity. The latter is well documented and highlighted that natural Hydrogen did exist.

I do get confused with all these coloured Hydrogens such as Green (which probably is not green), Pink, Blue, etc.

JA

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