Newbie advice on Myford VM-C

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I think that the £2000 is a very fair price to pay for such a nice machine, assuming the capacity is adequate.

I found out that it pays to use a knee rather than a quill when using a boring head as the chance of a tapered hole are much less. I had to transfer a job from the round column mill to the Tom Senior light vertical because of a taper of about 0.0015″ in 3 inches happened to be unacceptable for the job at the time.

[interferencefitParticipant @interferencefit]

Just updating this as I secured the mill, broke it down to transport and have just got it back together again – thanks for all the help and advice.

 

I’m about to sell my original mill which came with a series of tools, many I have no idea what they are for.

I’m trying to establish whether they are any use to me, or if their fitment / taper are not compatible with the VM-C?

You’ll need to forgive my ignorance, but I really don’t have a clue at this stage, so just need to know whether I let these go with the old mill, or whether I can use them on the VM-C?

Here are a few shots I took with some measurements which may help confirm suitability or not?

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

DONT throw cutters away, they may look odd to you now but in time you will realise what they are and a use will be found for them at ZERO expense.

[interferencefitParticipant @interferencefit]

I hear you, I wasn’t going to throw them away, I was more asking if they are compatible with the VMCm or do I include them with the sale of my previous machine?

I’m still to learn about tapers and the different types of tool holders etc.

Are the tools shown only for use in those collets, and if so, are those collects the correct taper for the VMC etc?

Sorry for being such a day-one noob.

Which ones are the cutters BTW?

 

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Surely you must know the taper on your new machine?, if not look at lathes.co.uk site and as for the taper tooling it looks like MT3. May I suggest some reading even looking at tool catalogues can explain a lot.

[Mark EasingwoodParticipant @markeasingwood33578]

Red are Router cutters for woodwork.

Purple are HSS End Mills or Slot Drills, (generally, 4 flute = end Mill, 2 flute = slot drill)

Green looks like a  counterbore.

Yellow is a morse taper machine reamer.

The two items with thin slots look like morse taper collets.

The large tapered item with a slot is a morse taper reduction sleeve.

[interferencefitParticipant @interferencefit]

Not a clue I’m afraid, but I’ll do some research.

[interferencefitParticipant @interferencefit]

Am I correct in thinking that anoy of the tools shown will need a collet to fit, therefore the key element is whether I have or can get collets to interface between these tools and the VMC, once I find out what they came with new?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I think VMC had R8 taper

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Duncan –

My VMC is certainly R8. I think that was the default but I don’t know if Morse spindles were also used.

 

Interferencefit –

Yes, you certainly do need collets for the tools; but they will be of a standard fitting to the spindle so finding them should not be too difficult.

First, the spindle form: on the Myford VMC most likely Morse Taper or (as on mine) R8. The latter is or was very common industrially, thanks largely to Bridgeport using it on their ubiquitous turret-mills, so we can find R8 tooling quite easily. It holds securely but is easy to release, important for efficiency in production shops.

It’s easy to identify those types, especially if you happen to have a suitably large Morse-taper drill or something to use as a basic gauge. Look in the end of the spindle: the Morse fitting is a single, slow taper over a fairly long length. The R8 has a very short entry cone into a cylindrical bore.

 

The taper-shank tools you show, including the drill-chuck, are all of Morse taper form. If you slide one into a Mores-taper spindle it should fit sweetly overmost of it length, and be gripped tightly when you tighten the drawbar. If the spindle is an R8, the Morse-taper shank will soon let you know. It won’t fit! And vice-versa, of course.

 

There are essentially three main types of milling-cutter collet, both pulled into the spindle by the drawbar (like a long bolt) whose operating head protrudes above the pulley when the quill is fully raised. They are…..

 

1) Direct split collets. These are long tubular tool holders, of either Morse or R8 spindle form, that have three slots cut part-way along them from the business end, so when the collet is pulled into the spindle the matching tapers squeeze it down onto the shank of the tool inserted into it.

They hold the plain shank of a cutter, irrespective of any screw-thread or flat the shank happens to have.

You show two of a simple form of these, to a Morse taper.

I have a set for my R8-spindle mill but am a bit wary because if they don’t grip fully the tool can slip back upwards or worse (I have had it happen) wind itself down into the work.

 

2) Screw-collet. These, perhaps the best-known being as the Clarkson ‘Autolock’, use short, stubby collets that fit a special chuck that itself has a stem that fits the spindle.

The collet has a split, spring-action grip like the direct collets, but its top end it also tapped to take the thread on the end of the cutter. About half of the cutters in your photograph are of this threaded form, and if you examine them you will see that end also has a centre-drilling that engages a centre within the chuck.

They are assembled and tightened in a particular way, involving a large, special spanner.

 

3) ER-number collets. These seem standard issue on the smallest milling-machines. Like the ‘Autolock’, the collets themselves are held in a special chuck that has the spindle fitting itself. As far as I know the ER was never standard on Myford mills, but ER-xx chucks with appropriate shanks might be available since the spindle fittings themselves are of standard forms.

These too, have their specific method of use.

 

Those are the cutter-holding forms I think most us see in model engineering. There are others in industry, such as the ‘INT [ernational’] -number series and the ‘Weldon’, both I think especially on CNC machines with automatic tool-changers.

You may also find the ‘FC3’ or “throw-away” milling-cutters – their nickname because they are too small and fiddly for economical sharpening in industry. They are tiddly little things for fine work, and are held in a special, but simple, holder that itself is mounted in an ‘Autolock’ chuck or direct spindle collet.

 

You don’t buy a collet for every cutter. The cutter shanks are made in a range of diameters, each shank diameter accommodating a narrow range of cutting-edge diameters. Although it’s not obvious, this is shown to some extent in the photographs.

For any tool-holding system you must ensure correct diameter collet for the cutter shank diameter, including being aware of metric or inch. All these are ground to fine limits so they fit together correctly, and if mis-matched they will not operate correctly, damaging the work, and worse, risking a broken collet or tool, or both.

The metric ones of the Clarkson ‘Autolock’ collets are indicated by a groove turned in the flange at their top end. The inch ones are left plain.

 

To a limited extent the ER collets, apparently available in mm diameters, will hold close-match inch-diameters, but from using them on the lathe I am not convinced they do so reliably. They are really meant for metric stock of good quality diameter and surface finish; and that does include metric-diameter milling-cutters.

 

Twist-drills normally need a standard 3-jaw drill-chuck, with an appropriate stem for the milling-machine’s spindle. Never use a drill-chuck as a milling-cutter chuck.

Accessories like boring-and-facing heads, tapping-heads, slitting-saw carriers, indexable face-cuttters, etc., also have their own shanks to fit the machine spindle directly.

 

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Duncan –

My VMC is certainly R8. I think that was the default but I don’t know if Morse spindles were also used.

 

Interferencefit –

Yes, you certainly do need collets for the tools; but they will be of a standard fitting to the spindle so finding them should not be too difficult.

First, the spindle form: on the Myford VMC most likely Morse Taper or (as on mine) R8. The latter is or was very common industrially, thanks largely to Bridgeport using it on their ubiquitous turret-mills, so we can find R8 tooling quite easily. It holds securely but is easy to release, important for efficiency in production shops.

It’s easy to identify those types, especially if you happen to have a suitably large Morse-taper drill or something to use as a basic gauge. Look in the end of the spindle: the Morse fitting is a single, slow taper over a fairly long length. The R8 has a very short entry cone into a cylindrical bore.

 

The taper-shank tools you show, including the drill-chuck, are all of Morse taper form. If you slide one into a Mores-taper spindle it should fit sweetly overmost of it length, and be gripped tightly when you tighten the drawbar. If the spindle is an R8, the Morse-taper shank will soon let you know. It won’t fit! And vice-versa, of course.

 

There are essentially three main types of milling-cutter collet, both pulled into the spindle by the drawbar (like a long bolt) whose operating head protrudes above the pulley when the quill is fully raised. They are…..

 

1) Direct split collets. These are long tubular tool holders, of either Morse or R8 spindle form, that have three slots cut part-way along them from the business end, so when the collet is pulled into the spindle the matching tapers squeeze it down onto the shank of the tool inserted into it.

They hold the plain shank of a cutter, irrespective of any screw-thread or flat the shank happens to have.

You show two of a simple form of these, to a Morse taper.

I have a set for my R8-spindle mill but am a bit wary because if they don’t grip fully the tool can slip back upwards or worse (I have had it happen) wind itself down into the work.

 

2) Screw-collet. These, perhaps the best-known being as the Clarkson ‘Autolock’, use short, stubby collets that fit a special chuck that itself has a stem that fits the spindle.

The collet has a split, spring-action grip like the direct collets, but its top end it also tapped to take the thread on the end of the cutter. About half of the cutters in your photograph are of this threaded form, and if you examine them you will see that end also has a centre-drilling that engages a centre within the chuck.

They are assembled and tightened in a particular way, involving a large, special spanner.

 

3) ER-number collets. These seem standard issue on the smallest milling-machines. Like the ‘Autolock’, the collets themselves are held in a special chuck that has the spindle fitting itself. As far as I know the ER was never standard on Myford mills, but ER-xx chucks with appropriate shanks might be available since the spindle fittings themselves are of standard forms.

These too, have their specific method of use.

 

Those are the cutter-holding forms I think most us see in model engineering. There are others in industry, such as the ‘INT [ernational’] -number series and the ‘Weldon’, both I think especially on CNC machines with automatic tool-changers.

You may also find the ‘FC3’ or “throw-away” milling-cutters – their nickname because they are too small and fiddly for economical sharpening in industry. They are tiddly little things for fine work, and are held in a special, but simple, holder that itself is mounted in an ‘Autolock’ chuck or direct spindle collet.

 

You don’t buy a collet for every cutter. The cutter shanks are made in a range of diameters, each shank diameter accommodating a narrow range of cutting-edge diameters. Although it’s not obvious, this is shown to some extent in the photographs.

For any tool-holding system you must ensure correct diameter collet for the cutter shank diameter, including being aware of metric or inch. All these are ground to fine limits so they fit together correctly, and if mis-matched they will not operate correctly, damaging the work, and worse, risking a broken collet or tool, or both.

The metric ones of the Clarkson ‘Autolock’ collets are indicated by a groove turned in the flange at their top end. The inch ones are left plain.

 

To a limited extent the ER collets, apparently available in mm diameters, will hold close-match inch-diameters, but from using them on the lathe I am not convinced they do so reliably. They are really meant for metric stock of good quality diameter and surface finish; and that does include metric-diameter milling-cutters.

 

Twist-drills normally need a standard 3-jaw drill-chuck, with an appropriate stem for the milling-machine’s spindle. Never use a drill-chuck as a milling-cutter chuck.

Accessories like boring-and-facing heads, tapping-heads, slitting-saw carriers, indexable face-cuttters, etc., also have their own shanks to fit the machine spindle directly.

 

Wonderful thanks so much.

I’ve since found out my VMC came with a Clarkson auto-lock chuck which sounds useful and all the documentation supports R8 spindle.

Essentially, it sounds like the answer is to keep everything I’ve got pictured with the exception of the collets and obviously the drill chuck which are for my original mill. Having now researched the measurements, is MT-3.

Sound about right as a plan?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You could change the arbor of the drill chuck to R8, no need to replace the chuck if it is OK.

Look at what is written on the chuck it will be a JT or B followed by a number, that indicates the siz eof teh small taper in the chuck and you need an arbour with that taper on an R8 shank.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Remove, already covered by Nigel

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

If the collets are R8 then keep them! Much better than Morse and we IMHO.

[interferencefitParticipant @interferencefit]

Thanks all – the collets are all MT-3, as is the drill chuck – all from my old, original mill.

 

The VMC has its own R8 drill chuck and bits and bobs. It was just to see if anything from the old mill was worth keeping, other than the tool bits.

 

Hopefully I can begin to practice on some stuff, as I’ve now got the VM-C and the Super 7 side by side and ready to go. Just needs someone with even half a clue of how to use them.

 

#allthegearnoidea

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Glad to help!

Here’s something you’ll need if they didn’t come with your Clarkson chuck: its instructions (attached below).

I’d copied it for my own use but having done so, have just found there are two types of Autolock collet with the flanged top, differing by the shape of the flange, so I hope it’s appropriate – for my mine as well as yours! I think they work in the same way; the difference being only the outline of the flange.

(There is another form that uses small lugs rather than a flange.)

 

Obvious point: when screwing the cutter into the collet the smooth shank disappears into it, leaving visible only the sharp flute edges that find fresh fingers quite delicious. Use a glove or cloth to protect your fingers.

Also keep the various components, especially the threads, clean. These (and all collets) rely on very closely matching sizes so don’t want particles of swarf or accumulated grease in the way. Kitchen roll is effective here.  A little spot of thin oil on the clean threads doesn’t come amiss.

Once you’ve mounted the cutter and collet-chuck in the machine, examine the clearances for the intended tool-path before starting cutting. Clamps and their studs can often be in the way and may even need moving (one at a time!) in mid-task.

At least one make of the commonly-available clamp-sets that fit the VM-C use 3/8″ UNC threads, and I found it worth adding some short bolts and an accumulation of large washers to my purchased clamp-sets, especially for securing accessories like vices.

NB: the clamp stud or bolt must never pass right  through the Tee-nut; and the lowest nut thread turns are staked  for that reason. If the stud is allowed to bear on the floor of the slot, tightening it can rip a lump out of the slot flanges.

 

As for the person with half a clue… Are you in a model-engineering club where you may find someone willing to show you? There are also some very good general tutorial books on milling, turning, etc. available in the model-engineering press, e.g. sold by TEE Publishing. I can vouch for them having bought several of my reference books from them.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

well the Warco ads are back, just a shame they are promoting an event that was last weekend😂

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