Newbie advice on Myford VM-C

[Trevor Drabble 1Participant @trevordrabble1]

My two penneth for what it’s worth , I agree with hollowpoint regarding the quill rigidity . My Myford VMB has no fine feed to the quill , instead the fine feed  moves the whole head whilst the quill is locked solid fully retracted and is most satisfactory ie equivalent to raising the knee on the VMC . Regarding value , for good quality milling machines both Myford and myford-lathes are asking serious money for their offerings , which are usually for the machine only . When buying used , for me provenance is all important and so up to £2k is acceptable in this instance .  Remember , the quality remains long after the price is forgotten .

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

You raise the knee by cranking the big handle to the left of the y feed. It’s much harder work than using a quill if you’re drilling several holes, anx only works for vertical holes. A quill makes life easier.

Rubbish

The mill has a quill so easy to drill holes even if you are peck drilling. It just lacks a fine adjustment.

 

As I said earlier the usual way to put on a cut with a knee mill is to raise the table, it has 0.001″ graduations on the wheel. Simply a different approach to a hobby lathe with a fixed table and hard to reach handwheel.

Less quill extension = more rigidity

[interferencefitParticipant @interferencefit]

Thanks everyone. Knowing the fastidious, meticulous nature of the owner, and that he’s had it from new and it’s in exception low wear condition, I am tempted, versus the risk of buying something for a few hundred pound less that is far more of an unknown quantity.

If I can sell my own one for a few hundred pounds, that might make it easier. Plus he’s local.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It could cost you a couple of tanks of petrol looking at others and that may not even lead to a purchase so thats you few 100 gone.

[interferencefit]

On interferencefit Said:

Thanks. Does the boring head and cutters help the value? Not sure what they cost new.

How precisely can you raise the knee and how easy is it to achieve repeatability for multiple cuts or holes etc?

Value of the cutters is not much from what I can see. Value of the boring head is highly dependent on make and style. A generic far eastern plain boring head same as the cutters, ie, not much. A boring and facing head by a UK manufacturer would be worth several hundred pounds.

On my vertical mill all vertical cuts, when milling, are put on using the knee. Accuracy is a thou or two for general work. I rarely need to drill holes to better depth accuracy than several tens of thou. I use the adjustable stop on the quill and raise the table to get the depth I need.

For milling the quill is always retracted and locked. I only use the quill for drilling/reaming and boring. Drilling/reaming is much quicker by hand, but for boring I use the power downfeed on the quill as it gives a better finish.

Julie

[Glyn DaviesParticipant @glyndavies49417]

Having used my VMC with its quill fine feed for few years, I would miss it if some part broke and I was stuck with the coarse feed only.

You can of course put the cut on with the knee handle, but it’s like cranking an old car starting handle with no ‘feel’ for what the cutter’s doing. And a lot easier winding it down than up. Also there’s no mechanical stop and as much scope for something moving when you lock the Z axis gibs as when you lock the quill. Using the fine feed is more like using a normal machine tool hand wheel, the same as using the X and Y axis hand wheels. I almost always use the fine feed for drilling – easier to apply the required force when using large drills and easier to advance the drill slowly when using small drills.

Another benefit is using a boring head with the machine head set at an angle. Difficult to get a decent finish boring with the coarse feed.

There’s my case, m’lud.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Of course he can.  And should.

 

The current owner may no longer have the mental ability to know what is a fair price or not. The OP may even be dealing with another family member who may also have no idea of machine values.

Speculation is always dodgy, and we don’t know the backstory.  But if mental ability is the reason, I’d be reluctant to take much loved tools off from someone suffering mental decline; they might be all he has left.  And if there are ethical/moral objections to buying the mill, they would also apply to buying the lathe.  I’m happy from what interference has said that he’s trying to do the right thing.

I repeat, if asking at all is a problem, for whatever reason, then offering a “fair price” makes no difference.  Most answers suggest £1500 but that’s low-end, heading towards “unfair”.  These well-made mills, in good condition, with accessories, sometimes go for a lot more at auction.   If several Myford fans are chasing it, £3000 or more.  That’s also the “fair price”.

Perhaps the answer is to wait until the seller, or his representative, is ready.  At this stage do no more than express an interest.  Come back when the obstacle has cleared.

As I said, this is business.   I don’t mean snout in the trough exploitation of a vulnerable person.  I mean tactful and honest, which is what most businesses aspire to.  I think we’ve given the best price guidance:

• it’s worth at least £1500
• sold at auction, on a good day. it’s worth £3000 or more (depending on accessories and who wants it)
• Reasonable to split the difference, making “fair price” = £2250.   The buyer isn’t driving a hard deal, and the seller isn’t expecting the best price possible. (Auctions are risky)

When setting up my workshop I chose not to fill it with high-value tooling because that makes life difficult for the executor and upsets grieving relatives. I have in-law siblings who have been at war since brother-executor sold their mother’s house below market value.  He hates office work, was unemployed, and decided to settle the estate quickly, despite everyone else wanting to wait.  As the property market was booming at the time, the executor cost them over £80,000.  They’ve never forgiven him.

I don’t want to saddle my children with death related aggro.   Rather than fill my workshop with posh tools, that I, rightly or wrongly, perceive to be a valuable investment, I’ve bought mid-range.   I’ve told the kids, it’s worth a few thousands if they choose to sell it carefully, but sell for scrap if they need to clear the house quickly.  They don’t have to worry about my “lovely” tools!

Not regretted going mid-range.  To me tools are just tools, and all is well provided they do what I need of them.  When they don’t perform I change them, rarely necessary, despite “buy cheap, buy twice” and similar perfectionist advice.  Fit-for-purpose and value-for-money motivate me, not brand-names, tradition, country it was made in, or notions of “quality”.

Value for money brings us back to “fair price”.  They’re not the same thing!

From interferencefit’s perspective, this is a golden opportunity.  He likes Myford, the machines appear to be in good condition, and local.  I’d ask tactfully and make a high offer to be sure of getting it without rocking the boat.

Dave

 

[Trevor Drabble 1Participant @trevordrabble1]

From what you’ve said about the mill’s current owner , I would venture to suggest that knowing that the mill will go to a good , caring home is just as important , if not more so , than the cash . I would therefore either invite him plus a family member to see the lathe’s new home , or alternatively supply them with as many photos/videos as possible , at the end of which I would check if he was happy with what he had just seen  , and then as a parting comment , ask for first refusal on the mill should he ever decide to sell it .

[Julie Ann]

On Julie Ann Said:

On interferencefit Said:

Thanks. Does the boring head and cutters help the value? Not sure what they cost new.

How precisely can you raise the knee and how easy is it to achieve repeatability for multiple cuts or holes etc?

Value of the cutters is not much from what I can see. Value of the boring head is highly dependent on make and style. A generic far eastern plain boring head same as the cutters, ie, not much. A boring and facing head by a UK manufacturer would be worth several hundred pounds.

 

Thanks – the boring head is a Jones-Shipman 2344-082 and the cutters are Clarkson auto-lock chuck cutters. Hope that makes sense?

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

 

• it’s worth at least £1500
• sold at auction, on a good day. it’s worth £3000 or more (depending on accessories and who wants it)
• Reasonable to split the difference, making “fair price” = £2250.   The buyer isn’t driving a hard deal, and the seller isn’t expecting the best price possible. (Auctions are risky)

 

 

Thanks, I’ve now been able to establish that it is available to me for £2,000 with the boring head, cutters and all other bits and pieces. This seems fair?

I have met the seller briefly when I collected the lathe, a fine, elderly, old school gentleman indeed.  I heard back from my father that he was delighted it was going to a good home for me to develop my skills and capabilities. As his health is deteriorating, it has been a very difficult journey for him to start to thin down his collection of tools and equipment, wirth the Lathe and Milling Machine having a special place in his heart having made such magnificent aero engines on these two machines alone. Apparently it took all his courage and pragmatism to part with the lathe and was not ‘ready’ to let the mill go. Only having made delicate, tentative and respectful enquiries to the family via my father who is a respectful yet distant friend of his, was the desire to purchase the mill also floated to him.

It has taken several weeks for him to feel comfortable enough to let it go to me to be with the lathe once more and the price of £2,000 requested. I’d not dream of making a counter offer for a whole host of reasons and therefore it’s £2k or nothing. Based on this thread, that doesn’t actually sound like a bad deal given the provenance. and known condition.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Looks like it has hardly been used so equivalent to new just without the supplier guarantee. The extras a worth a bit too.
Hopefully you will be able to make some nice models with this equipment so keep us updated.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Very pleased to see this has come to a very satisfactory and fair to both parties conclusion. Hope you have many happy hours with your machines.

[VicParticipant @vic]

It sounds like this thread has come to an acceptable conclusion for the op. I think £2000 is a fair price for the machine with the included accessories.

I’ve been very happy with my Warco VMC and it’s my understanding that the Taiwanese Myford version is likely to be of better quality.

As far as the quill on this type of machine is concerned, I’ve only ever used mine for drilling. I was told by an experienced machinist and repeated here by Jason, that locking the quill and using the knee is far more rigid for milling. I have actually removed the fine feed hand wheel on mine because I never use it. The standard feed handle on the quill is not ideal in my opinion so I quickly replaced it with a bench drill style version. I used some nice pool balls bought cheaply on eBay especially for the purpose. This is an old picture before I removed the fine feed hand wheel.

 

[interferencefitParticipant @interferencefit]

Great news, bought and paid for, just not collected as a partition wall needs to come down in the workshop where it is currently housed first!

I see that the total weight of the mill including stand is 306kg according to the original manual.

How easy is it to separate from the base (lathe was easy) and does anyone know what the weight of the mill without the base is?

I’m now just contemplating how to get it home. At 1,550mm tall on the base, that’s a very large van which would not get down the winding driveway to the cottage where it is housed, so I’m hoping splitting it is not a major challenge.

Is it worth taking the bed off as well, or would that not make much difference?

I’m reasonably strong and my helper is very strong, but I don’t want to risk damaging it or a vehicle if it slips.

Any advice or guidance as how best to move one would be gratefully appreciated.

Thanks!

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Take the head and base off (very easy). They can be moved without too much trouble.

The column and bed on the other hand is heavy as all hell.  If you could get an engine hoist it would make life easier. Otherwise its a 2-3 man lift minimum.

Good luck! 😅

[Hollowpoint]

On Hollowpoint Said:

Take the head and base off (very easy). They can be moved without too much trouble.

The column and bed on the other hand is heavy as all hell.  If you could get an engine hoist it would make life easier. Otherwise its a 2-3 man lift minimum.

Good luck! 😅

Thanks. The base looks self-explanatory, but can you give me a guide as to where the head separates, as I’m really not familiar with these machines.

[VicParticipant @vic]

As said, easily split into three parts. I bought an engine hoist and disassembled and reassembled mine on my own when we moved house.

There’s a lifting hole in the column that will accept a 1” steel bar for lifting. Looking at this picture I took I’m guessing I added the other strap under the table to make the lift more stable, the weight being primarily on the lifting point.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

They split much like the two assemblies in the warco manual, head comes off where it swings from side to side

 

https://www.warco.co.uk/img/cms/VMC-new%202017.pdf

[interferencefit]

On interferencefit Said:

On Hollowpoint Said:

Take the head and base off (very easy). They can be moved without too much trouble.

The column and bed on the other hand is heavy as all hell.  If you could get an engine hoist it would make life easier. Otherwise its a 2-3 man lift minimum.

Good luck! 😅

Thanks. The base looks self-explanatory, but can you give me a guide as to where the head separates, as I’m really not familiar with these machines.

There are 3 or 4 threaded studs around what I will call the “neck” of the mill. Unscrew the nuts and the head will lift off. The studs will remain in the column because they sit in a tslot. You may also need to disconnect the motor wire!

[interferencefitParticipant @interferencefit]

Thanks all. Looks like I’ll need to hire a van as I guess the main centre body/knee section will be too heavy/big to go in the rear of an estate car, from a crane perspective.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I bought my Myford VME years ago and transported it in one piece via a tail lift truck tightly strapped down! I don’t know how the land lies at the sellers and your location but I just bought some long lengths of 6 x 50 black steel bar greased them up and slid the mill along these.

The mill moved with hardly any effort, just a thought for you to consider?

Tony

[Julie AnnParticipant @julieann]

The mill is not a heavy machine tool. Hiring a trailer will be cheaper and perfectly adequate. This cylindrical grinder was collected from more than a 100 miles away and involved a trip around the M25:

If a trailer with a drop down tailgate is hired then the mill can simply be rolled onto the trailer. This repetition lathe is sitting on a pallet truck:

I can move up to a ton by myself, above that I need to use professionals.

Julie

[Julie Ann]

On Julie Ann Said:

The mill is not a heavy machine tool. Hiring a trailer will be cheaper and perfectly adequate. This cylindrical grinder was collected from more than a 100 miles away and involved a trip around the M25:

If a trailer with a drop down tailgate is hired then the mill can simply be rolled onto the trailer. This repetition lathe is sitting on a pallet truck:

I can move up to a ton by myself, above that I need to use professionals.

Julie

Honestly, I feel this advice may be not giving the OP quite as much an idea of the potential risks involved.

Yes, this mill is not some multi-ton behemoth, it’s not even as massy as a Bridgeport.  However, if it tips, there are going to be hurt feelings at best.

Moving a machine tool (excepting human-liftable little-uns; and even those sometimes), is a serious endeavour and not to be taken lightly or dismissed as ‘”Eh, any fool can do it”.

Unless the OP has experience rigging  relatively heavy machines for movement to a vehicle, getting up a ramp onto a trailer, and driving a car with such a loaded trailer, I’d recommend a van, preferably with a tail-lift.

Obviously moving machine tools should ideally not be done solo.  Someone with whom the OP knows they communicate well is best.  Before any part of the move, thought needs to be applied and at the very least a plan worked out.  Both parties need to have a constant eye on for upcoming troubles.

Here would be my approach:

Take as much off the ‘top’ as you can.  Off with the head!

Take an engine hoist with lifting straps, a pallet in decent condition, lots of good ratchet straps, and maybe hire a pallet truck.  Get the mill on to the pallet, and strap it to the pallet like billy-o.

If you can, use a pallet truck to get the palleted mill on to the tail lift, if not, use the engine hoist to do the same.  Again, use either the hoist or pallet chuck to get the palleted mill as close to the cab of the van as you can. Use more straps to get the palleted mill securely strapped down to the appropriate points in the cargo area of the van.

The pallet will give the mill a wider base obviously, potentially make it easier to move, and provide more strapping points to prevent sliding in the van.

Sounds like a lot of bother for what is, in the grand scheme of machine tools, not particularly large mill, but maybe this will add some context to my perspective:

I remember my father coming home from work in the 1970’s in a bit of an emotional state (a very rare occurrence), and it transpired, they’d been moving a dual-spindle pillar drill from one workshop to another, and it had tipped and fallen on one of the lads on the way to the Luton van.  The lad survived but ended up in a wheelchair.  These were not amateurs; these were experienced people, used to moving heavy machine tools and this was not an especially hefty machine.

Anyone who has ever had the privilege of watching professional machine movers work, will see that they’re relaxed, efficient, but very very watchful and they think before they do things.  These people have learned from mistakes (hopefully early on in their careers, where the mistakes they made didn’t have particularly serious consequences), and take their work rather seriously.  They also have a rather gallows sense of humour! 😀

[Julie AnnParticipant @julieann]

I suppose it depends upon whether the OP has experience towing trailers. Since I’ve been towing glider trailers around the UK, and down to the Alps, for many years towing a small machine tool isn’t an issue for me.

Although it is not clear from my pictures the machine tools shown have bulks of timber jammed between the machine tool base and the trailer sides to prevent sliding. Then the machine has straps from each corner to the trailer. It is simply a case of understanding how the machine tool could move and doing something about it. I am not sure how simple the same sort of arrangement would be in a van.

My only experience of tailgate lift vans and machine tools was when my CNC mill, in a crate, was delivered from Liverpool docks after clearing customs. Seeing the crate wobbling on a pallet truck several feet above the ground on the tailgate lift that was sloping away from the van nearly caused a heart attack.

Much safer just rolling it off a trailer. 🙂

Julie

[southernchapParticipant @southernchap]

Yeah, when providing advice, I find it’s generally better to assume less experience/knowledge than more, particularly when safety is at stake.

Any van worth its salt will have been built with plenty of anchor points in the cargo space.  Normally, these are placed at multiple heights and lateral locations in the cargo space.  Some of these points will also be compatible with bracing bars, or as you have found useful in your trailer, the ever useful 2″ x 4″ (or even better, custom made shapes, if one is feeling carpentry-competent!).

I particularly like pallets to put a machine on if they’re available.  The wider base (assuming conscientious application of strapping) just makes moving the machine a bit more predictable (also partly due to the extra weight of the pallet).  Also adds even more points for extra strapping low down, and the higher coefficient of friction between the wood and most surfaces, attenuates sliding a bit more (eh, every little helps).

I’m also a fan of pallet trucks, over engine hoists, where possible, less swingin’ rock and roll!  Three machine skates can be very efficient too, but require a very watchful eye.  Steel bar as rollers are also a reliable technique, but again require extra vigilance and are a bit of a PITA, in my view.

Obviously very few of us are lucky enough to have nice smooth, hard standing type routes from starting location to destination position, but sheets of 1/2″ or 3/4″ ply can help where the route is uneven or soft, but basically flat.

To be fair, as hobby machinists, having a trailer handy is very useful (not just for machine moving of course), and is a hell of a lot cheaper than hiring vans.

However, I do have a bit of a learned nervousness with trailers, as my first experience of driving with a trailer was as a student, helping a friend move a 13′ high, welded final year art project from Manchester University to Portsmouth, on a very gusty and rainy day (well obviously, Manchester, but the inclement conditions lasted the entire journey, it was at its worst on the M5).

Let’s just say, by the end of the journey my hands were aching terribly from my terrified grip on the steering wheel!  I was still feeling it days after!

Eh, the blithe over-confidence of youth!

Still and all, if one hasn’t driven with a trailer containing a heavy and valuable item attached to the back of one’s car, I’d say it’s better for everyone (including the poor buggers surrounding one on the motorway!) to not have that as one’s first lesson!

I may be open to a not entirely unfair accusation of an over-abundance of caution, but that’s just the way I roll.

[Author]

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