Identifying a traction engine

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

Helo All

 

I have a traction engine started some years ago along with someone else, I have decided to finish the engine but storage has left it with a lot of rust, I am going to use electrolysis to restore the rusty parts but for the life of me I cannot remember what the engine is, can anyone help.

The engine is 28 1/4″ Long

The Boiler is 4-4 1/2″ diameter and approx 16″ long

Front Wheel is 5″

Rear Wheel id 8 1/2″

Rear wheel width from outside to outside is 12″

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

From the dims it could be 1 3/4′ or 2′ but with flywheel on the right might narrow it down.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I’m inclined to think the flywheel should be on the near side as sticking that far out from the bearings to clear the other gears would not have been good practice, Drive to a pump more likely on the offside.

Could be a bit of a freelance as the flywheel does not look like a traction engine one, strakes to few and too wide. Front wheels look too small and too narrow a track width.

First thing to do would be to strip it down so the boiler can be inspected and tested.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Looking at the rust on the crank shaft, the shaft goes to the left and the keyways are for the flywheel on the left. Like Jason I think this is a freelance, to many things look too chunky. Again as Jason says strip it and get the boiler tested first, once that’s done it’s a great spur to get on. Not too much to do then to finish it. Good luck. Noel.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

I have only just noticed the smokebox door which is the picture below, this indicates that it is the burrell road locomotive, the boiler has been tested a while ago, if I reverse the crankshaft which I did it then hits the gears, if it is as the smokebox doors states then does anyone know if there are any plans for this loco or suppliers of parts?

 

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Are the strakes on the rear wheels at the correct angle? Or should they be angled in the opposite direction?

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

I should add that the dimensions are roughly the same as a 2 inch Burrell.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

The strakes are all cast into the rim, there are two rims for each wheel that are bolted together through the hubs, it is mostly complete but needs the wheels remaking and de rusting.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As it is a 4 shaft layout unlikely to be based on a Burrell as they tended to be 3 shaft engines.

Strakes are the wrong way but that could just be someone putting the bits together to sell the engine.

A road loco would not really have strakes and they are seldom fitted to model road locos. Foont wheels look even smaller if it is meant to be a road loco and not enough spokes in either pair of wheels

The crank is the right way round. From the near side bearing there should be a cluster of two gears, then the two eccentrics then the crank. Depending on what is is based on then there would also be a third eccentric to drive a feed pump maybe insid ethe hornplates or outside.

Hopefully there are some thickening plates inside the boailer barrel for the cylinder to fit to as well as the missing weight shaft bracket to support the valve gear.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

Nothing has been put together to sell, that is as found after some 20 years or so on the floor of the shed, as said if I can identify the engine then I can look at getting the correct information for this model and finish it whilst building a Torquay manor 5 gauge, a firefly 5 gauge and reconditioning a 5 gauge w class new zealand loco. it would be a shame to just throw it in the scrap bin.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I asked google to list all 4 shaft traction engines. Its AI section declined the challenge but produced these (among other) comments.”
Fowler: Some general purpose and road locomotive models, including an early four-wheel drive version.
Burrell: Known to have models in a 4-shaft configuration.
Foster: Specific 4-inch scale models (replicas of full-size engines) are described as having 4-shaft transmission.
Aveling & Porter, Allchin, McLaren, Ruston, Proctor and Company, and Wallis & Steevens all manufactured various types of traction engines and likely produced models using this common design. ”

So you could try an proper AI bot and refine the questioning as you get answers.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Most Burrell engines had a circular boss to the smoke box door but the castings supplied for Tethford Town do have the hexagon like the image above. However the way the door is hung with the hinges fixed to the side of the smokebox rather than the front of the door ring suggest it is just an engine using a couple of odd castings and an undersize boiler for the size of door. This is how it should be fitted.

As for AI if you have to ask it then the answers tend to be very much dependent on what you ask and often wrong, take the answer it gave her, anyone who knows their model traction engines will know that the 4″ Simplicity is a 3 shaft engine!!

 

And more rubbish here about plastow designing the engines. The model Burrells Plastow’s do are 3 shaft

I have looked through the various Burrel plans I have from the likes of Avery. Dick Simmons, Plastow, MJ Eng, Reeves and it is none of those which are 3 shaft. The only 4 shaft Burrell that I have is the Bassett Lowke but that is 3/4″ scale and not really that “scale” a representation of any engine and the layout of it’s 4 shafts are not like the engine shown

 

 

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

I think it unlikely to be anything other than a kit of bits with the intention of building a traction engine, I certainly do not think this is a freelance model as most free lancers have a solid set of engineering skills, I enclose some pictures of the front wheels, you can see a lack of set up to bore the shaft resulting in un-equal tread thickness around the rim, you can also see that when split these castings could not be reversed to make the strakes go in the other direction as then there is no surface for the end hub to go onto, I think therefore these castings are as intended, I also have looked at the number of spokes as it was mentioned there was not enough, the front wheels have 12 spokes that seems to be somewhere near the same as a current 2″ Burrell agricultural traction engine kit or fully built model and the hubs for the rear wheels seem to be identical to the ones on this model.  I am not looking to fault find with this model I am just asking if anyone recognises this so that I can fault find myself.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You are mixing up spokes cast into that front wheel with strakes on the rear wheel. Strakes are the angles strips which create the “tread pattern” and should face a certain way on a traction engine to stop the forces trying to pull the wheels away from the hornplates but rather push them in towards the engine.

Road locos as you were suggesting it was tend to have more spokes than an agricultural engine hence my comment about the lower number of spokes. The writing on the smokebox door claiming to be a Road Locomotive dod not correspond to other details such as number of spokes, as you now say, more likely an agricultural engine confirmed by straked rear wheels and a spoked flywheel rather than disc type.

We are not posting to find fault but to point out the features that make it unlikely to have been built to any recognised plans or even based on an original prototype.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think I would be tempted to get hold of a set of Minnie drawings and double up the sises. That will give you the mechanics of a basic 4 shaft engine that can be adapted to suit which parts of what you have you want to keep. This should give you an idea of how the crankshaft should sit, just needs to move a little towards the near side. Pump would beed to go elsewhere.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

I actually thought it was a minnie but 1″ scale, it was not until I measured the front wheels that I started to investigate further, it was certainly started at the time Minnie came out but I had never really got into traction engines, it has more in common with the Burrell agricultural engine than the road version and the crankshaft looks like a Burrell casting, I knew the wheel had spokes but I was steered the wrong way when someone said to me that the strakes have not been painted very well, lack of knowledge on my part made me assume that I was calling the spokes by the wrong name.

I have got the Minnie build book for the 1″ engine so I will refer to that, however some of the engineering is of poor quality and I cannot leave the wheels with unequal tread thickness so I am considering re machining the bore by using the inside of the cast rim and then truing the outside of the rim and putting a new tyre over the complete assembly and machining to size, I will have to take the current sizes as correct unless I can find some plans to help me, the other problem is that 1 wheel at the front has a crack in one of the castings and so does one of the back wheels.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

VERY few Burrells had the flywheel on the right and not many were four shaft ! I have a 1.5″ scale Bassett Lowke 6Hp Burrell, one thing that looks all wrong is the flywheel. The cast wheels, did someone make the patterns and get them cast – or cast them their selves ? An interesting model. Noel.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

Looking at the model and the quality of engineering I would say this is an as bought set of castings either together or over a period of time, I knew the person who started this and was familiar with the model but never really took any notice of what it was as at the time I was only just leaving school so it was 40 years ago, the person was not someone who would have castings made and certainly could not make castings, my feeling is that this is from one of those model engineering suppliers who have long gone, around the 70,s to 80,s. so at the moment we are looking for:

Traction Engine

Boiler Diameter 4 to 4.5″

Boiler length 15 to 16″

Total length 28-29″

4 shaft transmission

Rear wheel 8.5 to 9″

Front Wheel 5″

Rear wheel width in total 12″

Has a Burrell smoke-box door

2 speed

Has a few similarities to a Minnie

It also dawns on me that if I can open the smoke-box door will the boiler give any clues to this model? and more importantly is the model worth carrying on with, a lot of work has been done, some not well but that can be rectified, I did tell the family that I would complete it and name it after him, having never built one of these that may have been a mistake.

I also wonder if this is not quite a 2″ scale as it sits halfway between a Minnie 1′ and a Minnie 2″?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There are so few catings used I doubt very much it was a “set” for one particular engine.

Wheels , never seen a model where cast wheels like that were available

Smokebox Door, as said looks like Tetford town but wrong size and hinging

Flywheel, Not right for any traction engine and should be a disc type if a road loco. Probably meant for a stationary engine

Shaft Bearings hard to tell from photos if cast, cut from solid or repurposed from something else

Cylinder, not sure if that is a casting or cut from solid. I suspect from solid by the lack of bolt holes and no flange front and back so probably hard to seal to the boiler.

So to me three mismatched random castings does not indicate it was a set even if purchased over time.

As for Minnie, I only mentioned it as a source for 4-shaft mechanicals should you want to attempt to complete the engine otherwise there is nothing that screams Minnie to me. I started my minnie in the late 80s so know my way around it and what else was about at the time.

is the model worth carrying on with

You say the boiler was recently tested. What sort of test was done and to what pressure? Being an unknown design it would be hard to say what the intended working pressure should be. You don’t even know the exact boiler diameter so hard to even check what would be safe if the wall thickness were also known. Also it does not look to me that things like the remains of the water gauge, clacks etc have been touched for some time so how was the boiler plugged & sealed for testing? Any inspector is also likely to want to have a good look at the stays and generally have a good look over the boiler, hard to see how this could have been done with it all assembled.

A photo of the tube layout inside the smokebox would be useful, may not help identify anything but can be an indication of the construction.

So if you want to carry on with it that would be the first thing to check properly as the boiler is the backbone of a traction engine. If the boiler is sound then I’ll list what else may cause problems if you decide to take it further.

The nicest part of the engine is the draw bar and the way the draw strap ends are held in with wedges.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

It is so sad to see an engine like this, someone has put a great deal of work into it many years ago – but the world has changed. To get this certified for use now will require all the design paperwork that plainly does not exist. Were it a recognisable design then all would not be lost but again it is not, some of the parts appear to be commercially made but for what ?

If this is to be completed then as Jason has said it requires a proper boiler inspection first before any time or money is expended. Even as a display model it will require a lot of time and money to make it look right.

Good luck. Noel.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

Can someone tell me what the boiler is the closest representative of in the traction engine world, it may be easier to then remodel this on that engine, as my main interest in the hobby is the making I am not remotely interested in the model it turns out to be in the end, what information is required to get the closest match to a boiler? I also have another boiler from the same person that was part way under completion so I will get a photo of that to see if it is recognised. One steam specialist did tell me this morning that the boiler closely resembles a 1 1/2 gauge Alchin?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

An accurate diameter, you should be able to measure the diameter just behind the cylinder. Or wrap a piece of string around it, measure the length and divide by 3.14.

A photo looking up inside the firebox

A photo looking into the smoke box

An idea of how thick the boiler barrel, wrapper plate and backhead/throat plate are.

Alchin is 3 3/4″ dia with the barrel 8 3/16″ long, outside of firebox 4 3/8″ total 12 9/16″ long so a bit on the small side

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Setting aside the wheels and smokebox door as possible red herrings.

Does the cylinder sit on the boiler properly and is the flange thickness uniform?

If so we can reasonably assume they were meant to match and so identifying the cylinder may be the key to the mystery. How about an Alchin boiler and cylinder? Reeves 2000 has some dimensioned drawings on the web site.

As to the number of previous owners. The tender looks very old, the drawstraps should come off the axle bearings. The drawbar is both very ornate, but then fixed with wedges, which in the real world could rattle loose towing the water cart.

The guy who built the cylinder had the drawings, the next/previous owner found/had a tender that fitted and possibly some random wheels not quite big enough to look right painted by a school boy.

My opinion is 3 owners, the last family having no idea there was a previous life or two before them.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

The cylinder measures 4.5 inch high from the saddle, 3 inch long front to back and 2 3/4 inch wide, thyis does not look to me to be milled from solid as it has a cast texture around the oval plate area.

[Roy BirchParticipant @roybirch29994]

I have just seen the scribing on the oval cylinder plate which says Rebuilt 88, something in the middle which I think is his name and below that Histon which is where he lived.

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