Daft question (maybe)

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

John, I think you will find Emco don't do "just one size"

PGK, maybe you should look at a Cyclematic, at $20,000 not cheap but a third of what a Hardinge used to sell for

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

LOL Boxford one size Jason. Not sure that they do 2 centre distances now as the new style seems to have grown in length since it was introduced. There were 2.

The usual UK source of the others is here, millers too.

**LINK**

SwissTec wow now with a name like that they must be good ?????????????? Opti etc.

I can bench mount some of the earlier new style Boxfords. I've looked at a couple and found a brand new check on one. Couldn't run it, engaged screw cutting and a tiny bit of pressure on the saddle feed and it jumped out. Ex college and I'd guess lots of screw cutting by some who didn't bother looking at the screw cutting gauge so just kept trying to ram it in. Not sure so I gave it a miss. Otherwise it seemed perfect.

Making some assumptions about what the OP's friend might make I would probably head in this direction but would make sure that it did sound like gear head with ground and hardened gears should sound like. I'd hope that the accuracy report was met as well.

**LINK**

Excel did what I would call a butch colchester student some years ago but that style of lathe seems to have gone. I was told that the head was alignable on this particular model.

If he also wanted to do very small accurate work he could augment the warco with one of the modern watch makers lathes – at a cost. S&B will it seems make a pultra for him – even better as they are big for this style of lathe. Maybe others too.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 08/02/2016 15:37:45

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Ajohnw on 08/02/2016 15:37:00:

LOL Boxford one size Jason. Not sure that they do 2 centre distances now as the new style seems to have grown in length since it was introduced. There were 2.

Don't forget they also do the 280 and 330 ctr height machines which come in different bed lengths.

Protools will also get you Emco industrial size machines not just the hobby machines

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I'm surprised no-one expressed interest in the Ceriani? A 3-phase Italian-made lathe for under £3,000 with Norton gearbox and slightly greater capacity than a Myford?

And you can visit the factory to it it being made, if you want an Italian holiday.

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I'd missed that Jason. They may also still do them to toolroom spec but the costs rocker. For me the used ones of this range are a nightmare. They seem to be very modular and screw cutting and feed features can vary. I don't fancy loosing the ease of changing feed rates over a wide range on the old screw cutting gearboxes and I feel that some of the new models have gone a step too far.

On the rest at the hobby end I'm not keen on variable speed. They could improve my view on that subject by adding more belt settings and not just the usual 2.

The machines might bend in half though.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 08/02/2016 16:04:22

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The training versions do lack a lot of features but you can also get them with bells and whistles, our Nick_G seems to manage OK with his.

Or use one belt and variable pullys my woodturning lathe has that system as do the Boxford VM30 mills and the same is hidden in the base of Hardinge lathes too.

I'l stick with my Warco as it does all I ask of it

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by JasonB on 08/02/2016 15:46:51:

Don't forget they also do the 280 and 330 ctr height machines which come in different bed lengths.

.

I have a variation of one of those (STS 10-20). They all come under the X10 series banner with many of the parts across the range being interchangeable. **LINK** A couple of them are still made (at a price) I was lucky and found mine at a very good price.

It's good, I like it. It does what it is supposed to do and it's capabilities are far better than I have to get the best from it.

I can totally understand why somebody would wish to buy new if monies allowed. – Although I bought 2nd hand and 'blind' from ebay for both my lathe and mill at low prices, I do realise I was lucky in the conditions of the machines that were delivered. ……. Some people do not wish to leave to luck and if they can afford not to why should they.? It's their money. Most of us however have economic restrictions.

I would say that best bang for buck for somebody that had money to chuck at this while being realistic would be a mint condition M300. – I saw one a few months ago that was in such as new condition and fully kitted. It was however £7K ish.

I know this thread is not about used English Vs new far east imports but there are several factors to be considered when tempted by a used bargain. i.e. how well kitted is it.? I for example got a bargain with my STS 10-20. But.! Separated from it over the years was the extra change gears (available but £100 ish each) I also desire the fixed and travelling steadies. These are rare and command big coins even when they are available.

Nick

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by JasonB on 08/02/2016 16:40:44:

our Nick_G seems to manage OK with his.

.

That depends on which way the wind is blowing and how damp the sawdust is inside my head that day.

The ratio of swarf and scrap bin contents being boosted to that of a happy Nick is variable.

Nick

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/02/2016 16:00:34:

I'm surprised no-one expressed interest in the Ceriani? A 3-phase Italian-made lathe for under £3,000 with Norton gearbox and slightly greater capacity than a Myford?

And you can visit the factory to it it being made, if you want an Italian holiday.

Neil

Neil do you know of anyone who actually has one of these machines, I've never come across an owner. There are a lot of good model engineers in Italy but from what I have seen of their workshops none use this make. I did have a fiddle with the knobs of one at a show, although it felt quite nice it did seem overpriced to me and 100rpm is not slow enough for my liking. As I have said before how often do people screwcut? I make quiet a few engines large and small and may screwcut once or less on each one so can live without a gearbox and prefer change gears which allow me to select pitches that are not in the box with teh right gears.

Edited By JasonB on 08/02/2016 17:03:52

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

If you have money to burn and need a Schaublin lathe or a mill, type 13 say then the place to look is Switzerland. Most of what is shown comes fully equipped with collets and the mills with arbors and tooling.

Muller Machine is one place with a vast selection of lathes and mills and Aceiria drills etc. My feeling is if you want one then get a Truck and pay a visit and bring it back and say its for model engineering. I understand Schaublin has formed a new Company and list lathes and parts based in Bevilard.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

There are a couple of sources of Schaublin in the UK

used and recon work. They often sell rather quickly

**LINK**

New

**LINK**

John

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[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

I think that the attitude you have expressed about your warco lathe and say colchesters and in real terms many others is entirely correct Jason.

I don't mind changing gears for screw cutting. In some ways if odd pitches are needed it's the best arrangement. Feeds are another matter. The trouble with those is that finest doesn't mean best finish. It varies. I'd say I would be happy with 4 or 5 suitably spaced.

John

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[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

I have seen "Rebuilt" Colchester student lathes when I was looking to replace the South Bend heavy ten I had for over 45 years. Other than paint to make them look nice I was not convinced any real work had been done, most things just had checked/working OK on the list. I would expect new lead screws and nuts, reground ways and a near new machine performance for the close to £10000 asking price. I ended up with a Taiwanese 14×40 lathe. For the money (it was a used machine) it is doing all I need. Design faults are present, a weak cross slide that I am going to remake with castings being done this week. Also the saddle does not get close enough to the head stock for face plate work without hanging the tool out a lot. But as said it does all I really ask of it.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 08/02/2016 17:03:24:

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/02/2016 16:00:34:

I'm surprised no-one expressed interest in the Ceriani? A 3-phase Italian-made lathe for under £3,000 with Norton gearbox and slightly greater capacity than a Myford?

And you can visit the factory to it it being made, if you want an Italian holiday.

Neil

Neil do you know of anyone who actually has one of these machines, I've never come across an owner. There are a lot of good model engineers in Italy but from what I have seen of their workshops none use this make. I did have a fiddle with the knobs of one at a show, although it felt quite nice it did seem overpriced to me and 100rpm is not slow enough for my liking. As I have said before how often do people screwcut? I make quiet a few engines large and small and may screwcut once or less on each one so can live without a gearbox and prefer change gears which allow me to select pitches that are not in the box with teh right gears.

Edited By JasonB on 08/02/2016 17:03:52

They are sold by Pro Machine Tools – the same people who distribute Emco in the UK.

I think the minimum speed is 7 rpm and the 100-1800 is the headstock gearing/belt ratio range, which seems believable with inverter drive.

It would be very interesting if an owner can be found who would be willing to write up an OMAHL article!

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

No that refers to the belt version which is 7 speeds ranging from 100 to 1800. There is the vario (which I did not see) option that does have a lower speed range of 30 – 250 or 250-2500 but thats not a very good spread and you would constantly be having to change belts between high and low ratio.

They also only come with 3-jaw so need to figure in the cost of 4-jaw, faceplate and both steadies

It was Chesters that had them on their stand when I had a ply not Pro

Also not sure if its a proper gearbox, if you look at the front of the machine I, II, III & IV refer to gearwheels that need to be swapped and the lever on the front only gives a few variations

 

 

Edited By JasonB on 08/02/2016 20:08:25

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Yep, some digging in the Ceriani website and all the David lathes have 7 speed 100-1800 via headstock belts, but teh 203 vario adds 1hp inverter drive.

Neil

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Basic observation – the Ceriani 203 has a nett weight of 80Kg, the nett weight of my Sieg C6B is 145Kg.

Ceriani is 200mm swing and 500mm between centres, the Sieg is 250mm swing and 550mm between centres, so similar size.

Fairly crude indicator of rigidity?

Steve

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

The variable would benefit from another speed range as many would that really do go to low speeds.

Youtube shows that it's a brand name that has even been associated with Nutool in the past. There are several golden oldies on there as well as these. Made in Italy – maybe.

Personally I don't like the look of the gap at all especially if a face plate was put on it. The bed looks weak too where that ends.

John

–

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by Steve Withnell on 08/02/2016 20:35:44:

Basic observation – the Ceriani 203 has a nett weight of 80Kg, the nett weight of my Sieg C6B is 145Kg.

Ceriani is 200mm swing and 500mm between centres, the Sieg is 250mm swing and 550mm between centres, so similar size.

Fairly crude indicator of rigidity?

Steve

I'm always telling people weight is important – not that there is much point. Best let people just get on with it. If well made it's a good metric for what it's likely to turn out like on just about any machine tool.

John

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[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Steve Withnell on 08/02/2016 20:35:44:

Basic observation – the Ceriani 203 has a nett weight of 80Kg, the nett weight of my Sieg C6B is 145Kg.

Ceriani is 200mm swing and 500mm between centres, the Sieg is 250mm swing and 550mm between centres, so similar size.

Fairly crude indicator of rigidity?

Steve

Pretty much in proportion, a lathe with 25% extra centre height is roughly twice the volume so you'd expect it to weigh twice as much.

As stiffness pretty much relates to the cube of length, the same relation applies. A lathe with just 25% more overhang, has roughly twice the bending loads.

So despite the relatively small difference in size and big difference in weight both lathes appear to actually have more or less the same proportions.

Neil

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

That takes no account of how the metal is distributed Neil which in terms of bending can make rather a lot of difference. To me it looks to have a poorly designed bed. The shallow section at the end of the gap, the gap itself and also the fact that it uses a dovetail bed and no mention of hardening where I have looked. The bed also looks rather shallow. It does look like they haven't chobbled the bed away to make room for the motor.

Another make of Chinese dovetail bed lathe I owned had these finished on a super duper linisher according to the supplier. It was interesting to see how quickly cast iron dust built up in the oil I used on it. What cast iron matters too but this sort doesn't vibrate and really should be hardened. The amount of "wear" causing the dust in the oil did fall off eventually.

Wabeco 4000's come in at 71kg net (no kit), 200mm swing and 350mm between centres. The bed is narrower than ideal and the compound is also lacking. If they fixed that all in all it would probably come out well up towards 100kg. That's not accounting for a relatively thin saddle to gain swing there. It does have a rigid bed at this length though but I would be dubious about seriously loading the machine with its 2hp output motor at low speed which because it is variable speed is impossible of course. Actually due to the compound I would be worried about doing that at 460 rpm which is the max on it's low speed range. Too slow really and the other goes to 2,300.

John

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[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

Interesting that relative weights have been mentioned. When I was responsible for selecting and purchasing machine tools, one of the considerations was what I called "machine density", in other words mass/( length x width x height). Obviously this is a REALLY crude indication, but it is an indication that one machine MAY be more rigid than another. Obviously there is a fair bit of judgement involved!!

cheers

Bill

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Bill Pudney on 09/02/2016 00:50:29:

was what I called "machine density", in other words mass/( length x width x height).

cheers

Bill

.

I would fill the pedestal cavities on either side of my lathe stand with concrete if I thought it would assist stability / overall ridgidity. – No idea if it would be worthwhile or not though.?

Nick

Edited By Nick_G on 09/02/2016 02:02:29

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 08/02/2016 21:15:12:

Posted by Steve Withnell on 08/02/2016 20:35:44:

Basic observation – the Ceriani 203 has a nett weight of 80Kg, the nett weight of my Sieg C6B is 145Kg.

Ceriani is 200mm swing and 500mm between centres, the Sieg is 250mm swing and 550mm between centres, so similar size.

Fairly crude indicator of rigidity?

Steve

Pretty much in proportion, a lathe with 25% extra centre height is roughly twice the volume so you'd expect it to weigh twice as much.

As stiffness pretty much relates to the cube of length, the same relation applies. A lathe with just 25% more overhang, has roughly twice the bending loads.

So despite the relatively small difference in size and big difference in weight both lathes appear to actually have more or less the same proportions.

Neil

They still seem "light" to me. If you compare it to say a Chester DB8 which is same ctr height and length but weighs in at 105kg that makes the Chester 30% heavier for the same capacity machine. Of course some will say that extra weight is the sand in the gearbox

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

My Smart & Brown 1024 is 11" swing 24" between centres and weighs 2600 lb or 1180 Kg.

David.

[Author]

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