Daft question (maybe)

[Michael HannahParticipant @michaelhannah24786]

Hi

With the huge influx of Chinese Lathes and Milling machines on the market of varying and questionable quality . Is there are on the non Chinese manufacturers left of lathes and milling machines or have they all gone to the wall?

Mike

[Michael HannahParticipant @michaelhannah24786]

[JonParticipant @jon]

There are but you don't want to know the prices.

[Michael HannahParticipant @michaelhannah24786]

Hi Jon

Out of curiosity yes I would.

My question came about when a friend asked me about getting into model engineering(he has deeeep pockets) . He asked me about Lathes mills etc. He has seen the prices and asked the sensible question why should I pay X for a second machine 15 plus years old when I can pay the same or less and get a new Chinese machine.

I told him about the usual quality issues I had heard but also, was honest and said that my information came from Forums such as these and to be honest I have no idea if the quality issues had been addressed.

He then asked the next question which was " do any of the non Chinese machine manufacturers still exist" my answer was a big pregnant " I don't know"

I did a scoot on the internet and all I could find was the usual Chinese stuff in their various clone disguises.

Which brought me to here and my " Maybe daft question" .

He also asked the question " if I was going second hand what do I buy" but that is another story.

Mike

Edited By Michael Hannah on 07/02/2016 19:00:31

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Here's one of the premier European brands advertising in our magazines.

**LINK**

They are supposed to be very nice, but command a premium compared to far-Eastern lathes of similar capacity.

Neil

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

Hi, good question, Colchester/Harrison are still in business as the 600 group, but I think their beds, if not complete machines, are made in China, even though they are higher spec than most. Dean Smith and Grace also, but don't make anything smaller than a couple of tons! Boxford/Denford also, and they may be a possibility. The thing is, older machines are MUCH BETTER! they may or may not be worn, and also even if worn, you can still make parts to fine tolerances once you know the machine. The difference in quality between British and Chinese is HUGE. Also some good stuff out of Taiwan, but not in Model engineer sizes as far as I know. Plenty of good, if overpriced Myfords about too!

Phil.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I believe Boxford still make a manual lathe. I don't know the price but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a five figure sum.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Another way to go would be to go to a machine rebuilder. I worked in machine tools all my working life and a rebuilt machine would be better, more accurate than a new machine if you could buy one. Also you could specify upgrades.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 07/02/2016 19:57:57:

you can still make parts to fine tolerances once you know the machine.

If you're good enough, you can make parts to fine tolerances on any machine, even a mangle.

Worn machines are frustrating places for the beginner to learn.

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

 

For obvious reasons; they occupy a niche market, but: it's worth looking at two American manufacturers of small precision lathes; Levin and Derbyshire.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/02/2016 20:33:03

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/02/2016 20:34:16

[Brian AbbottParticipant @brianabbott67793]

Are'nt myford making new machines?

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Brian Abbott on 07/02/2016 20:39:17:

Are'nt myford making new machines?

That's an interesting question. I don't know but I'm not convinced that they are doing anything but putting together the various bits that they bought at the sale. They only rarely seem to have a new one on their web site. Does anybody know, for instance, if they are having new beds cast? There is a new lathe on their site at the moment – £9,480

Rod

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

Myford are in fact making new Machines themselves so to speak.

Been in there quite a few times and had decent conversations with them and yes they build up on site. Much material and sub con machining is still sourced UK. Their finishing is to a much higher standard than overseas but is certainly reflected in price.

The operation and range is very limited compared to their previous structure. They were very busy last time I was in.

[JonParticipant @jon]

Just found a 1992 US price list for the Harrison M300 $20550 bare.

Add on 3 jaw, 4 jaw and drill chuck looking in region of $23500+ that's around £16200 as of today. Equivalent size as theres no equal in Chinese around £3k whether that will last 5 times as long is argumental, certainly with me no.
New Harrison and Colchester have beds cast in china same with Myford going back 24/25 years.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Colchester, and probably other 600 group companies get their lathe beds from Taiwan at the foundry of the Wey Yii corperation. I have one of their own brand lathes, it's a 13" x 26" belt head, back geared lathe, with 1.5hp single phase motor, when I got it twenty years ago, I could have bought three of them for the price of a Myford Super 7, it was also cheaper than a Myford clone that the supplier had just got in, and the clone was way ahead of Myford with a large bore spindle, a heavier bed by quite a few kilograms, and the salesman said that in his mind it was a better machine than that English thing (his words).

Here's a rare view of my machine, don't worry the chuck is suspended on my over head hoist. Also you can see my home brew oil cap just behind the chuck, it is made from a flip top tooth paste tube, and replaces the rubber bung.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 08/02/2016 10:20:25

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

XYZ Machine tools and HAAS maybe.

Martin

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

How about a nice modest bench lathe …from schaublin… price probably would make ones eyes water. Or a second hand hardinge which the factory will still restore/rebuild even though they don't make new ones any more.. should come out at deep pocket prices with transport. There's a secondhand one for sale in spain on the for sale list at £5K and I;d hate to guess hardinges rebuild price +shipping….

Or is it just me that daydreams…?

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

If you assume that a general engineering / maintenance workshop lathe is going to start at 5 / 6 inch centre height by 24 inch between centres, then this sort of size is well represented by European manufacturers ( even though they do put most of it out to China ). However in times gone by you had smaller precision lathes like Smart & Brown model A, Cromwell, and others that I can't think of. It seems that these have disappeared along with instrument lathes like Pultra etc and worse disappeared a long time ago. Making good second hand examples very rare. I suppose the good news is that Schaublin are still going but this doesn't really help many of us.

I think that if your friend wanted to dabble he could do worse than buy a really nice Schaublin 102 VM. If he decided he didn't want to carry on with it he would probably not lose that much money on it and have a very nice lathe to play around on.

Just a thought.

David

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

Crossed over with pgk pgk there

Good to see great minds think alike.

David

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

This sort of question really needs a bit more information. Just what is going to be made on the machines. In some respects there is an argument that a beginner needs a lathe etc just to find out what they actually really do need.

Given a clue on what is going to be made and there may be some solutions.

John

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[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

For a rebuild second hand one of these would be nice to have **LINK** , Niko.

[Roger Williams 2Participant @rogerwilliams2]

Hello, pgk pgk mentioned Hardinge for a lathe for model engineering !. In my opinion, because I own a HLVH, and as superb as they are, would be hopeless for making models on, for a number of reasons. The tailstock is too heavy to keep pushing up and down the bed, the saddle is too wide, meaning work up near the chuck , awkward. Worse, with the standard 2 speed motor set up, the lowest RPM is 125,, which is too high for certain jobs. Just my 2 cents worth !.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Maybe you should try this mod to the tailstock. Several members on MEM have Hardinge machines for model making

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I'm sure my local agri engineers coud fettle up a spare loader ram and pump …. instant remote tailstock..

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Unless the OP comes up with some idea what is going to be made there isn't anything other than a very simple answer.

Wabeco and Emco or Boxford but only at a one size. Boxford prices – reckon on circa £12k maybe 15k plus. More variation on the other 2. Design wise those can be a bit lacking in areas depending on the actual model.

However China do make some decent lathes as do TOS, or did but they aren't the sort of thing that model engineers generally buy and the price and these days size will reflect that.

Schaublin – the only certainty about those is that even worn ones that don't deserve the name any more still fetch high prices. This is true of other mainstream makes as well, they are just cheaper in comparison, Hardinge too. All of them really.

There is one used lathe that I feel can be found in very good even perfect condition if some one takes their time looking. The Myford Speed 10 or even the later ML10 with the same bearings. Like many others they just use a pair of taper rollers for the headstock bearings which will put a limit on the finish that can be achieved reliably. To do better things like DSG's are needed – if they still make this type. The only ones that definitely do is Schaublin as far as I am aware. Both makes are likely to see a considerable amount of work before they are likely to appear on the used market and in practice few people need the initial performance levels these machines have. There is a UK source of recond's schaublins but if done fully they are still rather expensive.

On the other hand a file and emery cloth etc can cure all sorts of ills. Some styles of lathe bed such as Myford 7's cause more problems as they wear. Modern prismatic beds are a lot better but a lot depends on them having an ideal width for the size of lathe.

Maybe I should add that my training gave me a totally unrealistic idea of what lathes can do but I do understand why.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 08/02/2016 13:45:58

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