Daft question (maybe)

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just seen why they don't include a faceplate in the basic package – they want £128 for one which makes Myford seem cheap by comparrison.

Also they give you a so called Norton box but there is no thread dial included or even made as an accesory and you have to pay another £100 or so for the ability to reverse the leadscrew. I can get more threads per geartrain setup on my warco by using the gearbox leavers than you can on the Ceriani so maybe Warco should start selling the 280/290 as having a "Norton box"

When you start looking at things like this its not really suprizing why people have not suggested the Ceriani lathes, italian holiday or not

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I am with Nick_G,

A mint fully kitted M300 is just the job, perhaps for some modelling, a bit big. So add a very well preserved and set up Super 7 then you can cover most needs.

Good to know that is what I have already.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Some would say all of the extra weight in that 300kg warco I linked to is the headstock gears too.

I do wonder why some one doesn't make a good well proportioned small lathe at reasonable cost.

The Chester Craftsman and Crusader seem to be popular with some. 390 and 450kg. The Craftsman is a lot of lathe for the money – they don't rate either for real industrial lathe use.

I'm not keen on them as a company. Unfair really. I took a friend up there who wanted a lathe and thought may as well look myself as well. I mentioned several things that I didn't want to find out about after I bought it and they said not that one to a number of the ones they had on show indicating that they were well aware of the problems I mentioned. You'd think they would do something about them rather than just carry on selling them. Most of the sellers have sold these models at some point One thing the salesman did say was that he was amazed by the things people made with the mini lathe. That was the one I pointed the friend at – just by looking at them. Took no notice and bought the baby, hopeless for what he wanted to do with it – as he found after he had bought it. His reason for the baby was weight – worried about his shed floor in this case. None engineers are often hopeless in this type of area. I asked him what happened if he jumped up and down in it. For some reason peoples expectations on the weight score seem unrealistic to me. I'd guess it's on a sold as a lathe so must be a lathe basis which is fine providing people realise what it means in terms of what the machine really is capable of. Then there are all of the misleading aspects about motor power, some worse than others. Two words are needed by motor spec's. Output and continuous. All sorts of consumer items take liberties with both – power tools too. Few realise the problems associated with variable speed as well – until they have bought one.

John

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[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by Ajohnw on 09/02/2016 10:57:29:All sorts of consumer items take liberties with both – power tools too. Few realise the problems associated with variable speed as well – until they have bought one.

John

–

2 items come to mind with your post.

Firstly I have ordered a Warco WM 250V which should arrive Friday. I watched some you tube videos & they both said that a variable speed lalthe & mill was a great improvement on gear changing. I know from experience I rarely adjust my pillar drill for the correct speed. I also recall the hassle my father used to have with his Harrison Graduate wood turning lathe & the aggravation of changing gears on my Myford wood turning lathe which i had as a teenager. So your comment concerns me

Secondly I first dabbled with turning on my Drummond M type ( now up for sale) when I was in my 20's.. I bought a book on metal turning & recall that the author dedicated a whole chapter to setting up a lathe. The way it is mounted & bolted down has(or so he said) an effect on lathe accuracy. Yet I often see pictures of lathes on worktops & you mention a lathe standing on a wobbly wooden floor.

So far i have not noticed a thread on mounting lathes, but lots on lathe accuracy. I do not think it is all down to weight if one is going to distort it on its mountings

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 09/02/2016 17:03:50

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 09/02/2016 17:01:23:

Posted by Ajohnw on 09/02/2016 10:57:29:All sorts of consumer items take liberties with both – power tools too. Few realise the problems associated with variable speed as well – until they have bought one.

John

2 items come to mind with your post.

Firstly I have ordered a Warco WM 250V which should arrive Friday. I watched some you tube videos & they both said that a variable speed lalthe & mill was a great improvement on gear changing. I know from experience I rarely adjust my pillar drill for the correct speed. I also recall the hassle my father used to have with his Harrison Graduate wood turning lathe & the aggravation of changing gears on my Myford wood turning lathe which i had as a teenager. So your comment concerns me

Secondly I first dabbled with turning on my Drummond M type ( now up for sale) when I was in my 20's.. I bought a book on metal turning & recall that the author dedicated a whole chapter to setting up a lathe. The way it is mounted & bolted down has(or so he said) an effect on lathe accuracy. Yet I often see pictures of lathes on worktops & you mention a lathe standing on a wobbly wooden floor.

So far i have not noticed a thread on mounting lathes, but lots on lathe accuracy. I do not think it is all down to weight if one is going to distort it on its mountings

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 09/02/2016 17:03:50

I think John's remark about problems with variable speed is a bit harsh. As with most things personal opinion comes into it but its not fair lumping all the variable speed devices into being problematic.

I have several machines with different method of achieving variable speed, all are 100% reliable and I doubt I would go back to fixed speed for any reason. Its not just lathes and mills that benefit, I vastly improved my belt linisher when I converted it.

As regards lathe mounting (and 'levelling&#39 a bit of research into past thread on this forum will soon have you loosing a few night sleep!

Ian P

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The VFD I fitted to my lathe came with a 4-year guarantee (and it's Chinese).

Reason for pointing out the Ceriani was the specific question about European made lathes – they do seem to be one of the very few 3 1/2" to 4" centre height lathes MADE IN EUROPE and aimed at the hobby market (i.e. not priced the far side of £10K).

I have a suspicion that one of our authors may have one. His lathe is blue and has '203' on it. I'll ask him.

Neil

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Well, these people seem to have some good stuff…

Seriously though, modern machine tools have largely displaced the type of lathe most useful to hobbyists. We have good reason to be grateful to anyone prepared to cater for our needs. And of course many of us have benefited from the ready availability of classic tools made redundant in Schools, Colleges and Industry by progress in mainstream manufacturing. Buyer beware though, some of these classic tools are lemons!

My feeling is that "China bashing" simply discourages and confuses newcomers to the hobby. By all means buy second hand If you know what you're doing, but please don't put new friends off by rubbishing the alternative. Comparing a high-end industrial machine picked up in good condition for a fraction of its original cost with a tool designed to be affordable in the hobby market is hardly fair.

Far Eastern lathes and mills may not be the best possible but they are certainly "value for money". Whether they are also "Fit for Purpose" depends on what you want one for.

My own experience with Chinese tools has been positive – they've been nowhere near as bad as I was led to expect by the critics. All of them worked out of the box, all of them benefited from some fettling, and all of them have shortcomings. But I've learned a lot by using them and have had no reason to regret my purchases.

Enjoy!

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sam, having had a variable speed Warco for 6-7 years now I've not found it to be a problem, the so called downsides some people talk about have not been an issue and these are

– Lack of Torque at low reves, I stalled the lathe once the first time I turned a large diameter which was a 9.5" iron casting. I now know that on big items like this that are at the machines upper limit that a slightly shallower cut and running at a bit faster speed is all that is needed and have had no issues once I found out what worked best.

– Overheating, never had a problem even though some say that at prolonged slow motor speeds the fan is not turning fast enough to cool the motor.

– Reliability, I did have the speed control pot go on the front of the machine which was a £5 part and easily replaced and one sticky brush that I replaced early on for a few quid, replacements are doing fine after 5 yrs use.

I would not want another lateh without variable speed if I changed it

Edited By JasonB on 09/02/2016 18:33:35

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

I'm not sure that John was referring to reliability although this can be a problem on cheaper drives. Some variable speed machines are badly thought out. The speed control on the older mini lathes spring to mind. The bottom third of the range has very little torque. Industrial machines are often fitted with huge main motors to ensure adequate power at low speeds. The CNC router at work has a 20Kw spindle.

I am a fan of variable speed but it does need to be done right. I think that some people view VFD's as gearboxes when in fact they are the opposite. I would very much like to see a lathe made by someone like Sieg with a VFD and a 6:1 back gear operated by a single lever.

Regards.

David.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Ian's right my criticism is harsh and is comparing them with conventional back geared lathes but all sorts of factors come into it. It also annoys me that they don't give an additional belt setting rather than just the usual 2 which tinges my attitude a bit.

Actually the lathe you have ordered is one of the ones I have suggested that several people should get rather than something smaller. Part of the reason for that is that they do come with a sensible level of motor power for use with variable speed.

An example of the "problem" is what most people do if they convert a machine with mechanical methods of reducing speed to variable. The mechanical method increase the torque available at the cutter when the speed is reduced. A variable speed drive doesn't so when people convert they also usually increase the power of the motor.

Harald Hall has a good run down on setting up a lathe on his web site. The most important aspect of mounting a lathe is not to distort the bed. Most of the ones I have had have been just mounted on a tray. I don't usually bolt this to a bench but that's personal thing. I would use the same method if the lathe came on a cabinet and have. One lathe I owned was fitted with screw jacks in the feet of the lathe as supplied. These are just a collar that screws in and out of the feet. Some may have a locking nut but this one didn't.

I get some suitably sized nuts, bolts and generally penny washers but some ordinary ones may be handy. I pass the bolts with washers through the holes in the tray and then fit nuts and washers and tighten these down. Then a nut and penny washer on each bolt. If the lathe is then sat on this these nuts can be used to support it evenly without any strain. I just use finger pressure to do that. Then nuts and washers on top of the feet on the lathe. I tend to nip these up rather than tighten them fully. The jack nuts can also be used to level the lathe with an ordinary spirit level. I've also used rubber washers in the same set up – under the feet of the lathe. The thing to remember is that all of the major forces in a lathe are actually in it and all the fixings are doing is keeping it in place.

Some lathes don't have feet but the same arrangement can be used but there may be problems assembling it unless all thread is used in the tapped holes in the base of the lathe bed. Some people make some small jack screws out of larger nuts and bolts so that they can bolt straight through them to fasten the lathe down. As I mentioned I don't fasten them down firmly. There is too much risk of straining the bed so I just effectively leave them just sitting there on their tray. Lathes on cabinets are a bit different. Very top heavy. I would fasten the cabinet down. I had a fright with a Raglan once which demonstrated how easily it might tip.

Actually I installed a lathe that didn't have traditional feet for fastening down recently. I didn't fancy driving to collect some suitable width x 1/2" aluminium so have used 18mm mdf, well sealed as an experiment. It wont transmit vibration as much as some materials might. This has been cut to a size to allow the fixing holes to be a couple of inches out from the bed and is simply bolted to the lathe bed via countersunk holes. That is then fastened down to the tray. Actually as their surface area is high currently they just sit in the tray. I did look for some automotive rubber mounts that have a thread on each end and rubber bonded between but couldn't find any suitable. Often used for mounting exhaust systems.

These add on feet look a bit like castings. I'm confident that the mdf is strong enough for this but don't fancy it getting wet. I never use suds but do use brushed on cutting oil at times. When I tried this lathe it was mounted firmly on a thickish mild steel plate. Maybe 5/8 or so using home made screw jacks. I don't think that is the way to go especially with this one. It might benefit from being mounted on a strip of 3'x2'x2in concrete slab. If I try that I will allow it to bed down onto epoxy putty before fastening it down firmly. The slab will just sit on the bench.

There is a technique where the bed is strained on purpose at some point. The lathe needs to be mounted on something really solid. The idea is to twist the bed at the tail stock end to correct very minor taper turning errors over a distance of say 6" from the chuck. Usually a thou or so error. The tailstock will need to be corrected to suit and obviously the twist introduced at the end of the bed will be a lot more than the amount 6" from the chuck. I'm inclined to feel that this mostly dates back to when lathes were mounted on hefty cast iron cabinets.

One thing I should say is that I wont run out of balance items on a face plate – I add balance weights as I am rather fond of my head stock bearings. Not doing this might cause a lathe to move about. Lathes deserve more respect. Change wheels have done the job so far and if I needed more I would make some.

John

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[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

Back on track to the OP's question.

I made enquiry to the 600 group regarding a new M300. They returned an email with this .pdf **LINK** attached. Presumably the prices are plus VAT

Nick

[Anonymous]

Posted by Nick_G on 09/02/2016 20:03:51:

I made enquiry to the 600 group regarding a new M300.

Prices seem pretty reasonable for what you get. What's even more interesting is that the fixed steady is listed at £217 whereas a secondhand one has just sold on Ebay for £310.

Andrew

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Actually most of my attitude to them is in comparison with a conventional counter shaft lathe where it is easy to change speeds with a belt even on my me10 boxford which is a bit of a pain in that area. Myfords are a lot easier.

I wouldn't be totally happy with a lathe were I had to swing the cover off the end a play with difficult belt settings but have – hobbymat, unimat, chinese. Compared with that yes variable speed is great with some provisos. Jason mentioned one, diameter speed and cut depth. Brian mentioned another case of this on his baby lathe turning cast iron. He doesn't want to try that again I say basically fine but do appreciate the limitations. They are more important at some lathe sizes than others. Providing the power levels needed are improving.

Variable speed conversions are a touchy subject. There are people about who will post a video showing a short sharp hefty piece of work being done with an ac motor being run at a very low speed/ Isn't it great etc. It can be done if the motor that was fitted is powerful enough and many are when over loaded but if the motor is run like that often without sufficient longer stops to allow it cool or run like this for longer periods it will let the smoke out. I haven't seen any claims like these on here, only the opposite. Good because the other way misleads people. Actually there is a better solution to this problem that people don't seem to use. I'm sure my Boxford would run at heavy loads a bit short of the motor ratings for weeks over a 2:1 speed range without changing a belt setting.

I'm toying with the idea of going back to pure belt – even with sophisticated switching they are a lot more noisy.

I've heard that the larger VS lathes fitted with ac motors are also fitted with a separate cooling fan. I'll be interested so see how that works out. I am going to try it on something that doesn't matter too much at some point. Not my lathe though.

Reliability on the vs lathes does seem to have been a bit mixed. Pass on that. Lots use them and only a few complain. My impression is that it could be more of a mini lathe problem. I didn't have any problems with a small VS mill I had that used the USA controller design but the noise from the low speed gear irritated my wife. I would much rather have had a belt and more than two ranges but it did what I and the subsequent owner wanted.

John

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[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 09/02/2016 20:18:43:

Prices seem pretty reasonable for what you get.

.

Makes the new Myfords that surface their heads from time to time seem very OTT and that they must be made from Platinum.

They are a lot of coins that few here could justify. I just suppose it's how fortunate someone is financially and what they choose to do with their money. If I could afford one (which I certainly cannot) I would be very tempted.

Nick

[JonParticipant @jon]

Looks like they are throwing in some extras that was charged before Nick. I am also extremely surprised the price has dropped in 24 years probably due to most of it made in asia.
Looks like bore gone up to 40mm as well now

Think I would have to see the real thing if investing £14552 for the M300 with Dickson tool post – prices plus VAT.
So is it any better than an Asian made machine or just living off a much loved respected brand name most UK companies have done the last 20 odd years.
One thing the Chinese haven't copied on any lathe to date is the proper gearbox as used for last 50 years by Colchester and Harrison, that I couldn't live without.
Think I would go for a properly rebuilt machine of known origin Ie made in England not just assembled.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Jon on 09/02/2016 21:14:04:

Think I would go for a properly rebuilt machine of known origin Ie made in England not just assembled.

.

I think it's just the castings that are Asia sourced. – I have been 'told' that they are then ground and machined etc. in the UK

Nick

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Jon on 09/02/2016 21:14:04:

Looks like they are throwing in some extras that was charged before Nick. I am also extremely surprised the price has dropped in 24 years probably due to most of it made in asia.
Looks like bore gone up to 40mm as well now

Think I would have to see the real thing if investing £14552 for the M300 with Dickson tool post – prices plus VAT.
So is it any better than an Asian made machine or just living off a much loved respected brand name most UK companies have done the last 20 odd years.
One thing the Chinese haven't copied on any lathe to date is the proper gearbox as used for last 50 years by Colchester and Harrison, that I couldn't live without.
Think I would go for a properly rebuilt machine of known origin Ie made in England not just assembled.

Jon

Interesting to hear your opinion on the Harrison gearbox. I have an M250 and after looking inside the headstock gearbox I get the impression it is a precision made quality product, almost over engineered. What I hate about it though are the gear selector controls!

Having now fitted a VFD I rarely change ratios, when I do have to its a confusing and imprecise process, confusing mainly because of the way Harrison have labelled the knob and scales and imprecise because the detents are not very detenting.

The screwcutting gearbox is also a let down in the ergonomics area

Ian P

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 09/02/2016 20:18:43:

Posted by Nick_G on 09/02/2016 20:03:51:

I made enquiry to the 600 group regarding a new M300.

Prices seem pretty reasonable for what you get. What's even more interesting is that the fixed steady is listed at £217 whereas a secondhand one has just sold on Ebay for £310.

Andrew

£250 for a single (genuine) Multifix toolholder. Haha, if you don't ask, you don't get but for that price you could get a whole set including the post and half a dozen holders from somewhere like Create. Funny how the rests are much more reasonable but I suppose they are probably made and then imported along with the castings for the base machine.

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

It's not unusual to see items on ebay selling for more than the new price on things like steadies. Also items that turn up in an Amazon box. Think you can guess why. I bought something once without checking around new and about twice the price of what Maplin sell it for. No one would look for stainless steel weighing scales there.

I talked to some one who had bought a number of harrisons a few months ago. He reckoned that they were made in Taiwan and just assembled in the UK. He initially thought he was buying UK product.

Taiwan was the place the cheap lathes came from. They are the people who thought ahhh why use hardened bearings on hobby machines. Maybe hardened ones are used now. India has a brief spell too at one time. It seems that their Myford clones were very good.

John

–

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Ian,

Your M250 may be as you say but the M300 is an improvement in handling of the gearing. Inside the headstock, I agree the gear head is superb and the Gamet Super Precision bearings used probably cost more than many a Far East lathe!

Dalian Machine Tool Group (China) used to make a copy/similar machine using the same bearings and a drive clutch, under 600 Group supervision I believe, but does not appear on current Dalian product list.

[Alan JacksonParticipant @alanjackson47790]

I have an old Colchester Chipmaster (1956). It was removed from a university. I have fixed and modified it to increase its versatility, fitted a new motor and inverter drive. It works very well and is accurate. These lathes seem to be occasionally available on ebay for good prices compared to Myfords etc and I think they are well worth consideration if you are prepared/able to fix them up

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121885394219?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131721873996?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Alan

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

How did you get on with the headstock bearings Alan. I've always wondered if they can be changed cheaply.

The reason I ask goes back to training. The chipmaster was the only lathe that around 20 people a year used for a bit short of a week. It was one of the few lathes that turned rings due to slight bearing wear. This gives a pretty good finish with the rings every now and again along the length. It was the only lathe we were allowed to use emery cloth on. Some others had the same sort of problem but usually depth of cut could be used to up the load and get rid of the play – !##!!??? they made us hand feed for a long time on those but it does come with practice. Slightest change in feed rate produces a ring,

Intsructors mic'd up all of the work and checked the finish and then stuck a pin in a board – colours ranging from black to gold. Gold helped the tool bonus a lot. Black not at all, might even reduce it.

The work done on it was all smallish, max 1/2 dia or so and this one was used because 3000 rpm speeded up the work rate. Some one did look at the bearings but reckoned that they weren't adjustable – I just fetched some emery cloth out of the stores. The rest of the lathe was perfect.

John

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[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Alan Jackson on 10/02/2016 11:37:05:

I have an old Colchester Chipmaster (1956). ………………………………………..

 

I think they are well worth consideration if you are prepared/able to fix them up

Alan

.

I was in Rotagrip a couple of months ago and they although they do not advertise it have a very large selection of used kit.

I noticed a very, very grubby and 'seemingly' tatty old Chipmaster. But when I looked closely at it the lathe was in as new condition.

It seems that many, many moons ago this lathe had been taken out of service. What gave it the tatty appearance was that somebody had at that time taken the trouble to encase it in storage grease. This over the decades had attracted more crud and grime.

I am sure that a couple of hours spent with a gallon of paraffin and a brush would reveal a gleaming true gem.

Nick

Edited By Nick_G on 10/02/2016 13:04:47

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I think it's just the castings that are Asia sourced. – I have been 'told' that they are then ground and machined etc. in the UK

Harrison have not made manual lathes in the UK for some years – probably 10 or more. My brother-in-law used to work there in the section that made the gears & shafts – he took voluntary redundancy when the manual machines were outsourced (to China IIRC), as all he would have been making would have been a very limited range of timing pulleys, shafts & spacers for the CNC machines (Harrison Alpha & Colchester Tornado). I'll try & remember to ask him when that happened next time we meet.

At least one late model of a Colchester manual lathe (Magnum IIRC) was a re-badged Czech machine.

Nigel B.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

As far as I know there are no manual Harrison lathes made in the UK anymore, only the CNC Alpha's are still made in UK. Not sure about Colchester's though.

[Author]

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