High strength 4mm steel?

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High strength 4mm steel?

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Viewing 23 posts - 1 through 23 (of 23 total)
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  • #804933
    iansoady
    Participant
      @iansoady

      I have a Norton Electra motorcycle which has a notoriously weak electric starter system. Part of this is a set of 3 pawls which are pivoted and rotated by 4mm steel pins which engage with arcuate slots in a “wave” spring. The pawls drive a rathcet arrangement on the end of the crankshaft.

      One of these pins broke and I am struggling to find an appropriate material to replace it. One owner of a similar machine suggested using 4mm HSS drill shanks: I tried this and the pin bent on first use. I replaced it with a pin made from 4mm silver steel (BS1407) but again the pin bent after a few starts. I used the material as supplied as I have no hardening facilities.

      Can anyone recommend a suitable material for this purpose? Another owner has suggested using the shank of a 4mm high tensile socket head screw but I’m dubious.

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      #804956
      Grindstone Cowboy
      Participant
        @grindstonecowboy

        Hi

        I’m sure someone more knowledgable will reply soon, but as far as I know, drill shanks are left soft and they probably aren’t very tough. The HT socket head screw shank sounds a far better idea, as long as it’s dimensionally accurate enough.

        Rob

        #804958
        John Haine
        Participant
          @johnhaine32865

          Roll pin?  Generally made of hardened springy steel.

          #804963
          JasonB
          Moderator
            @jasonb

            The shanks of HSS drills are not hard that is why it bent and why they get chewed up if they spin in a drill chuck.

            If you want to try HSS the buy a 4mm “drill blank” or round tool blank. Hss will be less likely to bend but it is brittle.

            Dowel pins are also a possibility being ground and unles excessively long not easy to bend. They have a good finish and should be on size.

            #804967
            bernard towers
            Participant
              @bernardtowers37738

              I’m with Jason definitely a job for a dowel pin,strength and on size.

              #804977
              Fulmen
              Participant
                @fulmen

                The shank of a 10.9 or preferably 12.9 could work, it’s somewhat of a gunsmithing secret for making firing pins.

                Spring steel should also be a good choice if you can find it.

                #804981
                Nick Hughes
                Participant
                  @nickhughes97026

                  Another option is Needle Rollers, such as here:-

                  https://www.ballandrollerstore.com/loose-steel-rollers/4mm-x-15-8mm/

                  #804985
                  iansoady
                  Participant
                    @iansoady

                    Many thanks all, much food for thought. I believe another Norton owner has used roll pins. Most of the dowel pins I can find are stainless steel (A2) so I’m not sure about the strength.

                    Thinking further about roll pins, I believe they’re made larger than the nominal diameter so they close up when fitted. Not sure this would suit me as the free end needs to fit in the arcuate slot of the wave spring.

                    Re socket head screws – the 4mm diameter is quite critical as this needs to be a press fit in the pawl. I suspect that a nominal 4mm screw will be undersized for this.

                    Needle rollers may be a good option.

                    This shows the general layout – the ratchet etc are shown at the bottom.

                    electra_starter

                    #804986
                    Pete Rimmer
                    Participant
                      @peterimmer30576

                      12.9 socket cap screws are very tough. I turned a large one down, milled a square in the end and used that to broach a wallered-out square hole in a 1960’s Triumph brake pedal. It cut a perfect square hole in the pedal and didn’t even mark the edge of the square.

                      #804988
                      howardb
                      Participant
                        @howardb

                        I would go for the 4 mm shank of an Unbrako socket head shoulder screw, Unbrako stuff is chrome moly steel and extremely strong.

                        Back in the day I turned up a gudgeon pin from a large Unbrako cap screw in the lunch hour for an  air-cooled outboard I bought for pennies because it rattled. I hammered that old outboard mercilessly for years until I sold it with no rattle.

                        Bear in mind that Ebay/Amazon capscrews are probably not Unbrako.

                         

                        #804997
                        Robert Atkinson 2
                        Participant
                          @robertatkinson2

                          Rollers may also be soft internally. To get HT at exactly the right diameter I’d go for a socket head shoulder screw:

                          From a reptuatable supplier.

                          #804999
                          Diogenes
                          Participant
                            @diogenes

                            +1 for Dowel pins – hardened and ground – why go fa*****g around with bits of allen screw?

                            Was the OEM spec really 4mm – ? surprising for a sixties Norton?

                            This is a very reliable seller – 50 for a fiver..

                            https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303391264979?_skw=din6325+4mm&itmmeta=01JYVQ1XKPES92EM0W8GQCAG0J&hash=item46a38750d3:g:7RAAAOSwmXtd6Mo-

                             

                            #805001
                            iansoady
                            Participant
                              @iansoady

                              Those dowels look good. Yes, 4mm is a bit odd and it may be that the original spec was 5/32″ which is a couple of thou under that. 4mm gives a nice interference fit however.

                              #805002
                              JasonB
                              Moderator
                                @jasonb
                                On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

                                Rollers may also be soft internally. To get HT at exactly the right diameter I’d go for a socket head shoulder screw:

                                From a reptuatable supplier.

                                Why would you use those even from a reputable supplier. They are usually to a minus tollerance typically h8 so likely to be under nominal Dowel pins are ground to a plus tolerance usually m6 so will be ideal for good press fit

                                #805005
                                not done it yet
                                Participant
                                  @notdoneityet

                                  Questions:  Are you replacing all, or just the one?  If only one, might it be taking the full load before the others?

                                  #805007
                                  Robert Atkinson 2
                                  Participant
                                    @robertatkinson2
                                    On JasonB Said:
                                    On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

                                    Rollers may also be soft internally. To get HT at exactly the right diameter I’d go for a socket head shoulder screw:

                                    From a reptuatable supplier.

                                    Why would you use those even from a reputable supplier. They are usually to a minus tollerance typically h8 so likely to be under nominal Dowel pins are ground to a plus tolerance usually m6 so will be ideal for good press fit

                                    The OP wanted something stronger. The original may have been a dowel. Dowels are about 600 MPa Socket head screws are around 1300 MPa. The MAX undersize is 2 thou. A drop of Loctite stud and bearing fit will take care if that. The shoulder screw is much closer to nominal than the cap head suggested by others.

                                    EDIT: Your suggested drill blanks are also h8 tolerance.

                                    #805009
                                    JasonB
                                    Moderator
                                      @jasonb

                                      Press fit was only mentioned after I said drill blanks😉

                                      Nor did I see a need for the replacement to be harder. Just suitable.

                                      I took the suggestions of cap head screw shanks as raw material to be turned down, quite common practice for model engine crankshafts.

                                      #805014
                                      duncan webster 1
                                      Participant
                                        @duncanwebster1

                                        Piano wire is exceedingly strong if you can get it in the right size

                                        #805019
                                        peak4
                                        Participant
                                          @peak4
                                          On duncan webster 1 Said:

                                          Piano wire is exceedingly strong if you can get it in the right size

                                          Macc models claim to sell it, likely from a known supplier

                                          4mm dia piano wire 1 metre long

                                          Spring tempered, phosphate coated, carbon steel wire ASTM A228
                                          https://www.fushunspecialsteel.com/astm-a228-music-wire/

                                          Bill

                                          #805048
                                          iansoady
                                          Participant
                                            @iansoady

                                            Now lost for choice. I think I’m wavering between the dowels – which are available in exactly the right size – and the piano wire.

                                            There’s also a lot of play on the pivoting end of the pawls which won’t be helping any so I’ll probably replace their pins as well. This is what the pawls / pins look like (not my bike).

                                            pawls

                                            #805056
                                            Tony Pratt 1
                                            Participant
                                              @tonypratt1

                                              ‘Proper’ dowels are mild steel case hardened, so basically a hard case and soft centre, fairly cheap so worth a go. Not sure why we see so many stainless steel dowels. Never used or saw the need for them in my working life, in fact I didn’t know they existed until a few years ago?

                                              Tony

                                              #805061
                                              Macolm
                                              Participant
                                                @macolm

                                                As already suggested, use a genuine Unbrako cap screw, but turn it up from a 5mm item to get the exact diameter. They turn easily with carbide to an excellent finish.

                                                #805068
                                                Graham Meek
                                                Participant
                                                  @grahammeek88282

                                                  From what I can see of the fracture, (a blow up of this would have been helpful). The pin is “case hardened” and has a soft core. Any commercial dowel is going to be of the same construction. A Needle roller in this size would probably be hardened all the way through, but may well be tempered for maximum hardness and thus could be too brittle for this application.

                                                  The shank of a HSS 4mm Drill will be soft as you have already found out. An Allen Cap screw shank will not give you a much better performance than Silver Steel which is soft. Which you have tried.

                                                  Round HSS tool or Drill blanks would I suspect be the best way to go. Drill blanks in particular will be on size if you purchase from the likes of Dormer, etc.

                                                  Without hardening and tempering facilities for Silver Steel I would be inclined to go for the Drill Blank option, but these may well be down on size and not a press fit. High strength Loctite would be my choice here, a grade that will tolerate oil.

                                                  Was the shank of the 4mm Drill a “press fit”?

                                                  I know it would have been down on 4mm by about 0.025mm, so I am really wondering if you do not want 5/32″ diameter material. This assumption is based on the bike being a Norton.

                                                  Regards

                                                  Gray,

                                                  PS I would replace all 3 with the new material, it will always fail at the weakest point.

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