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  • This topic has 24 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 19 May 2015 at 12:13 by Dominic Collings 1.
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  • #190164
    Dominic Collings 1
    Participant
      @dominiccollings1

      Hi I'm mainly a hobby cabinet maker and woodworker taking on the odd project for friends and family. A guy at work has asked me to help with a dining table relocation and modification. They've a lot of antique European furniture and in moving the table to another room they've been left with a ceiling hung lamp that used to go over the table but now the tables gone, the lamp sits too low in the room. The lamp is pretty simple consisting of a brass rod 24" long with around an inch of thread on one end and half an inch of thread on the other to connect the decorative ceiling rose on one end and the bulb brackets on the other. They like the look/style of it so want to keep it but make it shorter. Simple I thought since it's apparently Italian so I was just going to get some 10mm brass tube, cut it down to 12" to save the original antique shaft if they ever want to reinstate the complete original lamp somewhere else and add an M10 thread on both ends. However despite being Italian/European and the rod being about 10mm in diameter the thread is much finer than a standard M10 thread. So my first question is what standard is the thread likely to be?

      Cheers

      Dom

      #7622
      Dominic Collings 1
      Participant
        @dominiccollings1
        #190167
        Keith Long
        Participant
          @keithlong89920

          Dom – if it really is antique then it could be just about anything as there were few if any standards way back.

          You will have to take accurate measurements of diameter and pitch of the thread and go from there. It could be either metric or imperial so "about 10mm in diameter" won't do, is it 10 mm or 3/8 inch or something else. As to it being finer than an M10 thread then I'm not surprised as most threads on the outside of tube are, but you've a whole range to choose from, British standard pipe (BSP), British standard fine (BSF), Brit. std.cycle (BSCY), Brit std. brass (BSB) to name a few, as well as the American equivalents and any other Continental varieties that were going at the time. There are also threads that were used mainly on electrical stuff such as BSC – Brit. std. conduit.

          Keith

          #190168
          Michael Gilligan
          Participant
            @michaelgilligan61133
            Posted by Dominic Collings 1 on 16/05/2015 18:37:50:

            about 10mm in diameter the thread is much finer than a standard M10 thread. So my first question is what standard is the thread likely to be?

            .

            Dom,

            I think the UK version was 3/8" x 26 tpi, and the metric ones are M10 x 1

            If you screw a bit of close-fitting dowel into the female, it should be fairly easy to check … after unscrewing it again wink

            MichaelG.

             

             

            Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/05/2015 18:59:17

            #190170
            Dominic Collings 1
            Participant
              @dominiccollings1

              Ok thanks I can measure the diameter no problem with a vernier but how do I measure the pitch?

              #190172
              Michael Gilligan
              Participant
                @michaelgilligan61133
                Posted by Dominic Collings 1 on 16/05/2015 19:04:41:

                Ok thanks I can measure the diameter no problem with a vernier but how do I measure the pitch?

                .

                The close-fitting dowel should bear the witness marks of the thread … just measure the distance occupied by [say] 10 threads. [obviously, for accuracy, the more the better]

                MichaelG.

                #190173
                JasonB
                Moderator
                  @jasonb

                  As Michael says those are the common threads for light fitting sbut it could also be a PG thread which is used on conduit and that has a 10mm size, work out the pitch and an exact dia to grt a better idea of what you have.

                  There was also a French Standard "FS" thread but I think that is a bit coarse for use on tube.

                  #190178
                  Neil Wyatt
                  Moderator
                    @neilwyatt

                    If it looks very fine there's a sporting chance it is 3/8" x 40tpi.

                    Neil

                    #190203
                    Jon
                    Participant
                      @jon
                      Posted by Dominic Collings 1 on 16/05/2015 19:04:41:

                      Ok thanks I can measure the diameter no problem with a vernier but how do I measure the pitch?

                      Ideally need a thread guage or two, metric and imperial.

                      Most studs are undersize to make sure they go in, so could be approaching the imperial 3/8". Other problem the difference between cycle thread 26tpi (Threads Per Inch) and 1mm pitch is 0.6mm or 25.4TPI metric so holding a guage up will both look extremely close. Other factor is a difference in angle of the threads and very hard to see on 1mm pitch or lower but doable.

                      M10X1 is a common thread size so is M10x1.25, course is M10X1.5. Love 1mm pitches.

                      #190227
                      john carruthers
                      Participant
                        @johncarruthers46255

                        Also there are Metric Fine threads, 10mm x 0.75mm

                        all sorts of adapters and accessories here;**LINK**

                        #190229
                        Clive India
                        Participant
                          @cliveindia
                          Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/05/2015 20:32:09:

                          If it looks very fine there's a sporting chance it is 3/8" x 40tpi. Neil

                          But no more likely than anything else. Although you no doubt mean well I do not think this kind of comment, based on two tenths of nothing, is helpful.

                          Michael Gilligan has it right.

                          Edited By Clive India on 17/05/2015 09:35:28

                          #190266
                          Ian S C
                          Participant
                            @iansc

                            You can also lay an imperial rule along the thread and count the threads per inch, this could be 26, 32, 40 TPI, in some parts of Europe, pre WW2 British threads were quite common, a 1934 Lanz Bulldog tractor (German) has BSW, and BSF threads, I think that changed after 1936, by order of a certain mr hitler, not sure about Italy.

                            Ian S C

                            #190275
                            Ian S C
                            Participant
                              @iansc

                              I forgot to mention, are you sure its brass, what I mean is it was quite common to use steel with brass sheet wrapped around it, and each end of the sheet was tucked into a slot running the length of the bar, this can be a trap if cutting and rethreading, as its easy to catch the brass and pull it from the slot. Just try a magnet on it.

                              Ian S C

                              #190358
                              frank brown
                              Participant
                                @frankbrown22225

                                Potentiometers (volume controls) have a 3/8 fine UNF thread, could it be this? Else as its a gravity defying fitting pass the tube through the top fitting, slip over a tight fitting washer, the deform the tube Bit of back street bodging.

                                Frank

                                #190403
                                Dominic Collings 1
                                Participant
                                  @dominiccollings1

                                  Ok thanks for all your help so far but I'm still no further forward. I've done as suggested and have measured the following.

                                  I'm counting 27.5 tpi and 11 teeth over 10mm. The bar definitely is not plated, is the same colour from inside to out and is not magnetic. Outside diameter is 9.62mm on the vernier, 8.29mm internal diameter so the walls are only 0.68 thick hence the need for a very fine thread I guess. I'm calculating 3/8" as 9.52 so it's a size in between 10mm and 3/8" although the "10mm" brass bar I bought for the job measured in at 9.85mm so I'm not sure that measurement means much. There are sections of the lamp that are not threaded and are a slip fit which tightens with a grub screw and the 10mm stock fits through these holes fine. Is this any more help for an thread ID?

                                  #190405
                                  JasonB
                                  Moderator
                                    @jasonb

                                    very close to 1/8" BSP. 9.73mm OD and 28tpi

                                    #190410
                                    Michael Gilligan
                                    Participant
                                      @michaelgilligan61133
                                      Posted by Dominic Collings 1 on 18/05/2015 07:41:24:

                                      I'm counting 27.5 tpi and 11 teeth over 10mm.

                                      .

                                      Dominic,

                                      Jason could well be correct with 1/8" BSP … but may I just do a 'sanity check' ?

                                      [Apologies if this sounds patronizing, but it's best to ask]:

                                      Are you counting the "pitches" correctly ? … i.e the first mark is 'zero' not 'one'.

                                      … It's a very easy error to make:

                                      I always remind myself that we're counting 'fence-panels' not 'fence-posts'.

                                      MichaelG.

                                      #190411
                                      Dominic Collings 1
                                      Participant
                                        @dominiccollings1

                                        No I'm not counting correctly then. That makes it 10 teeth per 10mm so assuming that 1.0p on a metric die means one tooth per mm that's 10 teeth in 10mm which makes fine M10 1.0p the most likely? I'm completely lost on the 1/8" die bit. Surely 1/8" is about 3.2mm ish, how does that cut a thread on a 10mm ish bar?

                                        #190413
                                        Michael Gilligan
                                        Participant
                                          @michaelgilligan61133
                                          Posted by Dominic Collings 1 on 18/05/2015 08:33:43:

                                          No I'm not counting correctly then. That makes it 10 teeth per 10mm so assuming that 1.0p on a metric die means one tooth per mm that's 10 teeth in 10mm which makes fine M10 1.0p the most likely? I'm completely lost on the 1/8" die bit. Surely 1/8" is about 3.2mm ish, how does that cut a thread on a 10mm ish bar?

                                          .

                                          1. Yes it looks like a nominal 10mm fine thread … which is what we might hope.
                                          2. British pipes are specified by their bore, not their outside diameter. This is very logical, given the purpose of a pipe ; but it does cause confusion. [note that in domestic plumbing, the old 1/2" copper pipe is bigger than the new 15mm.]

                                          hope it all goes well

                                          MichaelG.

                                          #190417
                                          Dominic Collings 1
                                          Participant
                                            @dominiccollings1

                                            Great thanks that's am M10 1.0p ordered so hopefully that'll work. Any ideas how I would artificially age brass? I'm thinking of perhaps a chemical just to add a tarnish. Or do I just leave it in the garden for a week or so?

                                            #190419
                                            Gordon W
                                            Participant
                                              @gordonw

                                              To age brass just hang in the fumes of ammonia, NB not in the liquid! Ammonia easily bought as household cleaner. But how you suspend a long rod in the fumes is up to you. After a few minuets a black surface appears ,wipe with a rag and looks like old brass.

                                              #190518
                                              Tim Stevens
                                              Participant
                                                @timstevens64731

                                                Ammonia is not a good idea for old, stressed, brass. In wwI the fumes from the stables were known to cause cracking in cartridges.

                                                Cheers, Tim

                                                #190566
                                                Ian S C
                                                Participant
                                                  @iansc

                                                  After cleaning the brass of old lacquer, grease and muck, there are a few ways of ageing it. First is salt water, this will take a few days. Next is vinigar, you can just dunk it and leave it out in the air, then repeat until you get the right colour, or get a sealable container, put some vinigar in the bottom, suspend the brass above this, and seal the container. The container could be a bit of plastic pipe. The same could be used with Ammonia.

                                                  You need to wear gloves to prevent contaminating the metal.

                                                  You can buy a product to antique brass.

                                                  Ian S C

                                                  #190568
                                                  Gordon W
                                                  Participant
                                                    @gordonw

                                                    I thought the man was wanting to age new brass. I don't think 1/2 hour in the fumes will cause any great problem. I find that the ammonia treatment works well and looks the part, but I've only done non-stressed parts such as model ships cannon. So will warn against using on stressed parts or old cartridge cases.

                                                    #190572
                                                    Dominic Collings 1
                                                    Participant
                                                      @dominiccollings1

                                                      Yes it's on new brass to try and get it closer to the original. Is new brass tube likely to be lacquered? Doesn't look like it although I guess it won't hurt to give it a once over with a fine grade scouring pad before trying the ammonia trick. Failing that I'll just try dirtying it up with some dark brown wax. Obviously it would be much easier just to cut down the original tube and re-tap the end but the owner was to keep the original. Still I've got to wait for the die to turn up first, just thinking ahead.

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