Boiler calculation, another question

Boiler calculation, another question

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  • #22973
    Bob Perkins
    Participant
      @bobperkins67044
      #136360
      Bob Perkins
      Participant
        @bobperkins67044

        I've recently finished a Tubal Cain "Polly" and thought that I would like to design and build my own version, perhaps a little larger. My preferred material for the boiler is brass, either tube or with a seam. Although I'm only dealing with low pressures, out of interest I would like to calculate the maximum working pressure of the boiler. I have trawled the web but am unable to find a figure for the maximum safe stress for brass. All the formula I have found refer to copper @ 25000 using @ a safety factor of 8. I'm looking for a similar figure to plug into my brass boiler formula. Any suggestions?

        Thanks

        Bob

        #136361
        roy entwistle
        Participant
          @royentwistle24699

          From what I've read I wouldn't advise using brass for a boiler Dezinctification ( is that a word ? ) comes to mind But I am not a boiler builder Others will no doubt comment

          Roy

          #136362
          DMB
          Participant
            @dmb

            Hi Bob
            Short answer to your query – DONT!!!
            I am certain that all club boiler testers will fail it if there is any part of a boiler made from brass. Also, no test = no insurance cover and breaking law on pressure vessels. Give up + use copper. If you must have a brass-look boiler, use thin brass cladding sheet.
            John

            #136364
            richardandtracy
            Participant
              @richardandtracy

              Room temperature properties of CZ108 ("Common Brass", as per Kemp's Engineer's handbook, 1988, not BS2871 as I don't have access to a copy):

              Annealed: 0.2% Proof stress: 125 N/mm^2, UTS: 355 N/mm^2.

              Full Hard: 0.2% PS 550 N/mm^2, UTS 585 N/mm^2

              Multiply "N/mm^2" by 144.9885 to get "psi".

              I do not know the elevated temp strengths of CZ108. As already stated above, due to de-zincification it is unwise to use brass. If you do, life the boiler and keep accurate records of service life, ensuring full dry-down between uses, and don't try to use in public. It is probably unwise to assume a strength greater than the annealed strength of 125 N/mm^2 (18000 psi) due to annealing when soldering the sheet.

              Regards,

              Richard.

              #136368
              NJH
              Participant
                @njh

                Hi Bob

                Why not try " Elizabeth", the next project in Tubal Cain's book. That does have a copper, silver soldered, boiler and would provide some interesting challenges – at reasonable cost. The only stem engines I've seen with brass boilers are those, beloved of schoolboys over the years (my self included!) , made by Mamod .

                Regards

                Norman

                #136371
                Packmule
                Participant
                  @packmule

                  I'm confused by the replies that say not to use brass ? Mamod and Wilesco seem to spring to mind.

                  #136372
                  michael howarth 1
                  Participant
                    @michaelhowarth1

                    According to Henry Greenly in Model Engineering (1915 edition) he cites both copper and brass as viable materials for boilermaking. In the case of copper he gives a figure of 29,000 lb/in2 under "ordinary" conditions but reducing to 25,000 lb/in2 at 350 degrees F which he helpfully points out is the temperature of steam at 100psi. For brass he states that not more than 18000 to 20000 lb/in2 should be allowed. From what I have read it seems that until fairly recently model locomotives were commonly made with brass boilers and soft soldered at that. A boiler in one of Tubal Cain's books also specified a brass boiler and this may also be the boiler that Bob is referring to. As previously pointed out, nowadays it would be almost impossible to get a boiler tester to pass a boiler having any brass component and copper with bronze bushes is the preferred and effectively only material for small boilers.

                    Mick

                    #136374
                    DMB
                    Participant
                      @dmb

                      I think the explanation for Mamod, Wilesco and any similar, being made of brass is because you fill them up to a certain level to run for so long, bit like a steam Iron. Packed away dry. They are very small, low pressure and in the unlikely event of explosion would probably only injure the idiot abusing same and no-one else. Probably, the low danger level is reason that they appear to slip under the wire for Pressure Vessel Regs. The bigger capacity and very much higher boilers capable of real harm come under the regulations governing combined pressure/volume.

                      Water only boils @ 100C/212F @ 14.7psi(atmospheric) and as the pressure climbs so too has the temperature have to climb in order to continue making the hot water actually boil and produce more steam. If there is a sudden and serious burst failure of the vessel releasing all of the accumulated pressure of steam, the hot pressureised water is immediately way above its natural (100C) boiling temperature and will immediately convert to steam at around 600 times its original volume, hence the violent explosion and severe scalding of anyone nearby. I have recently read an account of a dodgy small soft-soldered boiler in a model boat which blew up about 100 years ago, I think it was at Kensington Round Pond. That was lack of water and interference with the safety valve. There have been a number of wrecked traction engines in years gone by and photos have appeared in old MEs.

                      John

                      #136384
                      MICHAEL WILLIAMS
                      Participant
                        @michaelwilliams41215

                        Have to agree with general tone of advice given – stay with copper – save you a lot of problems .

                        Having said that however there have been plenty of brass boilers made and run safely for a few hundred years !

                        Seriously – if nothing elese was available a brass boiler for a small size steam plant wouldn’t worry me too much – I’d just make it generously thick in the plates .

                        Dezincification does occur but you may have to have several hundred steamings and lay ups before anything much happened – depends very much on the water .

                        One of the real problems with brass however is in silver soldering – copper will tolerate a bit of overheating but brass won’t tolerate any and you could end up with both thinning and embrittlement .

                        Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 25/11/2013 19:30:53

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