Soba Vice Problem

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thought for the Day

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 26/07/2014 09:48:14:

… Speaking as a U.K. importer/retailer, I can assure you that costs for such vice are far more higher than the price mentioned by John.

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Thanks for the clarification, Ketan

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

We are assuming that the vice is designed so to be removed from its base, but in practice this is a bodge, and in industry you would normally get a fixed vice which would have more widely spaced fixing points.

If you look at the slots for the normal holding down screws on the base of the Soba vice, you will probably find they are significantly wider than the holes you are using. This is because you should not rely on the bolts as registers to ensure the vice is positioned correctly. The holes for bolts securing the rotary base are made smaller as they don't need this additional freedom.

On my rotary milling vice the 'rotary holes' are 10mm nominal to match the M10 bolts. The slots in the base for the holding down bolts are 14.5mm wide.

So, if you are using those holes to bolt down the vice, even if apparently perfectly aligned, it would make sense to enlarge them a little anyway, so the shank of the bolt doesn't bear on them. If enlarged to the same diameter as the width of the slots on the 'proper' base, I suspect the difference in alignment would be trivial.

Just to finish, here's a vice designed to be removed from its swivel base:

You'll notice it has broad slots, not holes, attaching it to the base.

Neil

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/07/2014 09:48:36:

Thought for the Day

I am not going to quote what your link leads to but it's a very entertaining work of fiction and is typical of the corporate BS that companies feel they have to come out with. A mission statement is another one that firms spout on about and means exactly nothing, we all know words are cheap.

Tony

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/07/2014 09:52:15:

If you look at the slots for the normal holding down screws on the base of the Soba vice, you will probably find they are significantly wider than the holes you are using.

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See here

MichaelG.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 26/07/2014 10:00:27:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 26/07/2014 09:48:36:

Thought for the Day

I am not going to quote what your link leads to but it's a very entertaining work of fiction and is typical of the corporate BS that companies feel they have to come out with. A mission statement is another one that firms spout on about and means exactly nothing, we all know words are cheap.

Tony

they probably missed the memo which read…less is more..

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/07/2014 09:52:15:

Just to finish, here's a vice designed to be removed from its swivel base:

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Neil,

"… designed to be removed from its swivel base" [= swivel base as a grotesque afterthought]

If that was the only available alternative, I think I might be very happy with David's SOBA … rebored as described in my first post.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> See here

> MichaelG.

I've already seen that, but it's not clear what the slot sizes are and as it's a review it's not like the manufacturer/seller claiming its suitable for use that way.

It's clearly beneficial for those of use with smaller machines to be able to remove the base, but that doesn't mean they are meant to be used that way. if they were they wouldn't make non-rotating vices that were different from the top part of the rotating ones.

Neil

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Marcus Bowman on 26/07/2014 08:46:32:The same has happened with tools as with many other consumer products; the price has determined the quality. The more low cost tools we buy, the less top quality tools are available to buy, so we've pretty much shot ourselves in both feet by pursuing low cost at any price(!)

There is an awful lot of stuff out there that looks nice (and cheap) but is made of cheese and badly put together.

Marcus

Sorry Marcus, you are wrong. Price does not ALWAYS determine quality.

There is good and bad in every price range, just as much as there is good and bad in every person.

I am aware that this is a thread about a product from a competitor. I am not prepared to comment one way or another on this specific product/situation.

However, to make a sweeping negative statement which suggests that a lot of cheap tooling is bad, is simply wrong.

Recently, I have read threads on this forum as well as others which suggests that certain products are not fit for purpose.

Has anyone considered that the person writing such a comment may lack the experience or knowledge to make such a comment?

Does that mean that the person making such a comment is not fit for purpose?…personally, I don't think that, because the person making the comment has limited experience/knowledge.

It is very easy to make comments without foundation.

You may agree of disagree with my comments, just as much as I strongly disagree with the sweeping negative statement which you have made.

There is room for product in every price range, based on a persons budget. I have seen customers with and without experience produce wonderfully engineered products on cheap manual machines, using cheap tooling.

To be honest, in my opinion, if it wasn't for the likes of Chronos – specifically, offering cheap products, you would not have the number of people that are in this hobby today, let alone 'the manufacturers' such as SOBA and other traders, including ARC, who entered this area of business, as a result of using Chronos as an example for creating a business model.

Trust me, this is not an advert for Chronos…just some honest truth.

Ketan at ARC.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Where's the Super Adapt thread when you need it ?

[_Paul_Participant @_paul_]

Posted by John Stevenson on 26/07/2014 11:11:30:

Where's the Super Adapt thread when you need it ?

lol

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Stevenson on 26/07/2014 11:11:30:

Where's the Super Adapt thread when you need it ?

.

It was wrecked by the comedians

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 26/07/2014 10:00:27:

I am not going to quote what your link leads to but it's a very entertaining work of fiction and is typical of the corporate BS that companies feel they have to come out with. A mission statement is another one that firms spout on about and means exactly nothing, we all know words are cheap.

Tony

.

Tony,

In case you missed the irony …

"Thought for the Day" is a [sometimes overly pious] "sermon" on BBC Radio 4

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/07/2014 10:37:14:

I've already seen that, but it's not clear what the slot sizes are …

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Sorry, Neil …

I was simply pointing to a page that includes a decent illustration of the fact that the base is slotted.

[with the sole intention of supporting the observation that you had made]

MichaelG.

[Steven VineParticipant @stevenvine79904]

The swivel vice was built to a price. I guess that, in the design, the two holes used to secure the vice to the base did not need to be machined with any great accuracy, saving time and labour (doing away with the need of a skilled precise machinist). The holes are out, but that is fine in this case and there is nothing wrong in that (assuming the vice functions as intended of course).

All is fine with this thing, until it is split up and used it for a different purpose; so we should not complain and run it down.

To deal with the problem, either take it back and buy something more suitable to your needs, or use smaller bolts, and maybe put a removable locating bar under the base. Later on you will see how easy it is to correct the holes (I would run an end mill down one of them).

Steve

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

“Sorry Marcus, you are wrong. Price does not ALWAYS determine quality.”

I disagree, not always but generally it does. It is possible to buy good stuff cheaply but I have bought lots of stuff cheaply I’ve regretted later. HSS slitting saw blades that were anything but flat, a Soba collet chuck that wouldn’t fit the spindle, expanding mandrels that were neither parallel and done up with a poorly formed mild steel screw which sheared on the first use, a boring head where the holes holding the cutters weren’t perpendicular… and so on. The quality of the steel used is often inferior on cheaper accessories and everyone here I’m sure has their own experiences to share. Screwdrivers from most DIY stores and chisels made from poor quality steel, wood screws that shear and bend all to easily etc. Yes, it is possible to get lucky and buy a good’n of something that’s priced inexpensively but only if you’re prepared a bit of mail order roulette. Bearings are another item. Yes you can buy cheap ones that are “adequate” but bearings are an item that ideally should be high quality. It’s not good enough that a customer gets a good item eventually. They should get something good first time and the only way to do that is better quality control.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

You are entitled to your opinion Chris, just as much as I am to mine. As I said in my earlier post, no one has to agree or disagree with my opinion.

My opinion is based on my knowledge and my experience which is different to yours, specifically with reference to engineering tools and bearings in particular. If over time you visited production lines of engineering tools and bearings in China, and saw the branded and unbrandaded products coming off the same line, perhaps you might consider a more balanced view. By branded, I specifically refer to well known Taiwanese, Japanese, German, British and Amercan brands in engineers tooling and bearing industry. The issue of QC to which you refer, is variable, depending on which of these branded manufacturers you refer to.

What you say is true just as much as what I am saying is true. You can buy unbranded engineering tools and bearings at a cheaper price than the branded stuff which has come off the same production line. In such cases, being cheap does not make it poor quality. The only issue is that the end buyer does not clearly know if something is good or bad. This is where I suggest that there is good and bad in every price range. Again, I don't really expect you to agree with me.

In certain cases there are better Chinese measuring tools than those marketed 'manufactured' by a well known British brand. For a like for like measuring tool the better made un-branded measuring tool is cheaper, but because buyers are not brand aware / nor can they expected to be, it is difficult for someone without knowledge to make an informed decision when compared against a well know brand.

So, even though I respect your point of view, I stand by my statement, based on my personal experience. I personally believe that one should avoid making un-balanced sweeping negative statements about engineering tools…..and bearings…without due consideration.

Ketan @ ARC

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

I hear what you say but it’s a well known commercial model that quality costs more and therefore assuming the same ratio of retail price as a factor of manufacturing price, the product made to higher standards from superior (more expensive) materials will generally be more expensive to buy. Your argument is based on branded and non branded product coming off the same production line but that’s not quite the same argument. The value of some brands is based on the fact that customers trust that brand to be of the highest quality from the brands reputation and that confidence in the quality is what you pay for. A Zenith camera will take a photograph as good as a Hasselblad but if you go to the Moon, which camera do you put your faith in?

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Chris Trice on 27/07/2014 02:25:45:
. A Zenith camera will take a photograph as good as a Hasselblad but if you go to the Moon, which camera do you put your faith in?

I would really like to know who would be using it in order to answer that question properly, would it be David Bailey or some chap from down the street?

It really isn't that straightforward.

graham.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

…you get what you pay for..

Wish it was that easy

If two parts in front of you ..both the same price or within 20 percent…can we rely that the more expensive is better..?
Brands do not give the reassurance that once they did.. ( brand names seem to have come into use in victorian era for pretty this reason)

One thing..if the thing costs less than the materials ..that is not likely to have a lot of “added” value ..
I often buy cheap gear “for the castings”..eyes open.
/* ramble over*/

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Sometimes the branded version has to cost less to make (be lower quality) in order to pay for the brand advertising.

In electronics there used to be 2%,5%,10%,20% resistors all coming off one production line. It wasn't that 20% might be less accurate it was certain that they were as they were the ones that didn't meet the 10% test but other factors, eg stability, were just as good as that wasn't the selection criteria.
I believe the same method is used with ball bearings.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Back to topic and a caution. If you have a cheaper swivel vice have a look at the nuts underneath holding the two together. Mine were just ordinary nuts no washer so not much surface area taking the load. Just asking for a breakout. It was second hand but I don't think the previous owner had ever used it so not changed them from new.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

I agree times are changing. I think companies are now more interested in the profit and less interested in their reputation.

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

Around 17 years ago I bought a new Record 5 inch drill vice from a local shop. It came impressively packaged in a moulded polystyrene case with an image on the box proudly illustrating the guaranteed clamping force possible between the jaws.

At first glance the vice looked good with superb accurate castings. But the vice did not have any machined surfaces anywhere other than the underside of the base, it was just left as cast and nicely painted all over.

There were no hardened jaw plates fitted to the unmachined jaws, the guideways for the moving jaw were not machined and underneath the guides for the moving jaw keep plate were also not machined. There wasn't even a keep plate fitted to stop the jaw lifting, but the keep plate mounting hole positions were marked on the jaw but not drilled or tapped.

The handle had not been knurled and no tee bar was supplied, so it couldn't even be tightened. When I did try to use it the sliding jaw just lifted by a mile, so the vice was just about next to useless.

Record must have been trying to keep the price competitive with all the cheaper imports.

A few years ago I bought a Soba drill vice, sometimes badged as Neal, the Soba was a similar price to the Record but is far better. It has hardened jaw plates and wide ground slideways for the long moving jaw and keep plate, and has a tee bar fitted so it can actually be used, it works extremely well. Even the jaw feedscrew is better than the one on the Record vice.

I still have the Record vice and have machined all the nessesary areas to make it usable. Although as supplied it was a big disappointment for a product that at the time was still made in Sheffield.

 

 

 

Edited By Lathejack on 27/07/2014 11:37:06

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

I purchased one of these vices at least 5 years ago, it had exactly the same problem, still has as I see no reason to correct it. The holes in mine are drilled 10.75 and I use M8 tee nuts and studs for clamping it down and this works perfectly well for me.I use it most of the time without the swivel base to gain more Z axis space. I would like to say that apart from these two holes being on the p**s it is a very well made vice, castings are good ,machining all over is to a good standard and it does what it was purchased for. I imagine that every one of these 3 inch vices has the same problem – anybody else got one?

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