Is anyone interested in developping a new series of model engines?

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

@chesgreenuk
What a very useful and insightful post, thank you.

I take your point about international sales, and also about the USA and metric. The US market is potentially hugand has plenty of people with space for home workshops. I shall give that serious thought.

Your point about havign to source standard parts seperatley resonates with me a lot. If someone is unfamiliar with, lets use bearings as an example, it can be daunting to say the least when they get told “buy a standard 6002-C-2HRS-C3 roller bearing from FAG”. Especially if you don;t know where to start. Hence my idea is to offer full kits. 1 purchase with everything you need. In the words of Moist Von-Lipwig (Terry Pratchett charictor) “always make it easy for people to give you money”

Your idea of a complete home setup with machinery, tooling, kit and mentor is a brilliant one! I’ve neevr thought of such a thing and it is really a genius idea. You could also add in a buy back promise to alay any fears. Buy back if peopel want to upgrade, or if they decide the hobby is not for them. 2nd hand machinery from that could then be th ebasis of the next kit sold.
A really really good idea, and one that I will mull over.

Thank you

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Myself I don’t see newcomers to te hobby as being the typical “Spotty Youth”. I think they are far mor elikely to come from the 40-50 age group who’s kids if they have not left home will at least be over 18 and not need ferrying about, probably paid off the mortgage too.

I’m sure most of our suppliers would come up with a favourable deal if purchasing a “whole workshop” I know Ketan would have done and he offered discounted starter tooling packages with all his machines. But as to including a model engine kit, well I suppose it would be of use to those wanting to make that sort of model but a larger percentage of machines don’t go to the typical “model Engineer” Home workshop use may be restoring/modifying cars/motorbikes. Upgrading or replacing broken parts for that RC model. Or with more people using 3D printers there is a need to be able to make things like axles, pivots, inserts, bearings etc so that their assemblies can function.

I don’t think Paul will please all. If he only sells an all inclusive kit in metric that may or may not please Ches as although he gets the barstock what if he wants to work in imperial? Best option as I said earlier is castings only or a complete all inclusive set, metric at first then consider an imperial one if there is enough demand, easy enough to modify drawings these days. Even if you do an imperial inclusive set for sale to the US and old duffers chances are the US will want UNC and not BA which was favorite here. It is all capital outlay and stock that needs to be stored somewhere so keeping it to a minimum of options helps with the start up.

Myself I like to just have the castings. I’d rather have a decent length of bar to hold onto than a short bit in a kit and have to throw away what remains as seldom long enough to use for something else. May not apply to beginners but it would allow the more experienced buyer to deviate from the drawings if they wished, again something I certainly do and that often requires different size/type stock.

Competition and builders gallery on a website is a good idea but why not make the competition web based particularly if aiming to sell worldwide otherwise you will just get a couple of locals turn up.

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Paul,

And right back at you 😉

You could also add in a buy back promise to alay any fears. Buy back if people want to upgrade, or if they decide the hobby is not for them. 2nd hand machinery from that could then be the basis of the next kit sold.

Good stuff!…even if delivery costs to and from base are not negligible.

We must always remember that the sums must add up for the supplier ie a decent profit margin, or a hook that leads to greater sales.

From what I understand most folks running around in new cars have acquired them on a lease agreement ie the upfront cost was scary, but the monthly payments not!

I’m getting away a bit from model kits, but it has always interested me in what the actual barriers are to people trying to enter the model making hobby.

Ches

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Jason,

I agree with most of what you say, although when I started in engineering in my early 20s there were a few of a similar age in a Dept of about 100 folks that already had home workshops. But that is quite a few decades ago and times change.

ArcEuroTrade was a unique company which I sadly miss….I wish I had stocked even more when they had their sales on.

I think your skill level/knowledge is a few grades above mine, but ties in with your point that ‘hobby machineshop’ owners can have different uses for the equipment.

As for a model kit with each workshop sold, the kit would be acquired wholesale (ie at a lower price) …. the workshop seller could describe it as ‘free’, and the model kit maker would increase their market share. But that was just a casual suggestion by me….the sums would need to work out.

‘Web competition’…good idea, and low cost….winner’s prize notwithstanding 😉

Ches

[paulmichael1084]

On paulmichael1084 Said:

@grahammeek88282 Thanks for the extra information, and hat makes sense now. I was wondering why the block was brass, I assumed it was just an asthetic choice!
Really interesting there and what wonderful work you demonstrate. I don’t suppose you have drawings of the parts do you? (Incase that request raises a red flag I would never share or exploit any information given without obtaining you permission first, and would happily sign an NDA to that effect)

An article on these engines was published in Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading magazine some few years ago. While the drawings were supplied, these were not published.

I still have the drawings, in Metric, but it will take me a few days to update them to my latest drawing package. You raise no Red Flag with me. I have in the past sold the manufacturing rights to some of my original designs, but these are merely an adaptation of ETW’s original design so I cannot lay claim to them.

I will send you a PM

Regards

Gray,

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

@jasonb – I feel called out. I ma new to the hobby of model engineering (but as I say not new to engineering). I am 46 years old, and 4 of my5 kids are now adults. The only way I differ is that I dream of one day being able to get a mortagage!

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

@grahammeek88282 Thank you Gray, both fo ryour offer and your vote of confidence! I look forwardto your PM

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

One of the advantages of a full kit is sourcing small quantities or awkward parts. A builder can’t easily buy just 4 screws so has to get a packet and ends up with lots of spares. Now in some way that is a hidden or spread cost so less obvious to the builder but adds hassle, delay and postage costs. A 13″ (is there a metric standard?) of silver steel “may come in handy” so perhaps more acceptable.
On the other hand there is the time factor of counting and bagging the 4 screws for each kit.

G1MRA has recently been selling a small G1 3D printed locomotive kit the ‘Greenly’, then built versions when people baulked at the electronics soldering. Done at cost as it is a promotional offering to try to get more people and youngsters into this particular gauge it hinges on one man procuring all the parts and kitting up the first couple of dozen on his own. Latterly some others in the Gaugeone3Dcircle  have lent a hand but it still is only possible with the dedication of this one person. It has been quite clear that any kind of commercial mark-up would be impossible.

[JAParticipant @ja]

I have ignored this thread for the past two days but have just read it through. I have no concerns about a potential manufacture asking questions on the forum.

I do have one comment, once a product is launched it needs good support. An awful lot of good, well designed, models fall by the wayside because the original manufacturer goes out of business or is sold to new owners who not interested. I worry about the future of Anthony Mount’s collect.

JA

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Counting 4 is easy it is when you need to do bags of 50 that loosing count becomes more of an issue, I filled a few bags of nuts while helping out on the M J Engineering stand a couple of times.

It is also a bit difficult to decide how inclusing you make a kit. Do you include a bottle of Loctite (insert suitable number) when only a drop or two is needed or a pair of tubes of JBWeld when a pea sized blob is all that the model needs?

 

The new owners of Polly don’t do anything to help themselves. The old website had a good description of each of Anthony’s designs no all you get is a small photo and just it’s name. I have also given up asking when they wil restock metric fixings and future articles by me will just direct builders to where I get them from in Germany. Still at least Anthony’s engines can be scratch built.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

Cheap digital scales make counting small parts easy – keep a book / spreadsheet of count-weights…

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

Hi,

This is a very good point people make here, but I have it covered, from several angles actually. One of which is indeed a set of counting scales!

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

[…] A 13″ (is there a metric standard?) of silver steel “ […]

333mm according to  BS1407

 

… and thus dies the base 10 purity of metric”

🙂

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Actually they grind it in 1m lengths which are available as are 500mm but deep pocketed model engineers only want to stump up for 333mm, must use a 0.5mm kerf sawblade.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Worth looking up Kontax Stirling Cycle engines.

[paulmichael1084Participant @paulmichael1084gmail-com]

Good call.

I’ve had one for several years at this point, and I love it.

Are you suggesting  this as a suggestion for a product?

Or maybe an example of a sucessfull model business?

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Actually they grind it in 1m lengths…….

Silver steel is made, and available, in 2m lengths.

Julie

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

In days of old, goods inwards departments had odd sets of scales where 1 item on one side would balance 99 or 49 on the other, made it easy to check you had 50 or 100 in a package without knowing the weight of one off

[PeteParticipant @pete41194]

Anthony Mount did dual imperial and metric dimensions for many of his various designs and drawings. If I was Paul, I think I’d spend the 26 quid to buy both of Mr. Mount’s books for good examples of those dual dimensions and how usable build instructions might be done. And in my opinion, AM has a very good eye for good looking and well proportioned engines.

https://www.teepublishing.co.uk/books/stationary-steam-engines/historic-engines-worth-modelling-volume-1/

https://www.teepublishing.co.uk/books/stationary-steam-engines/historic-engines-worth-modelling-volume-2/

I have a personal friend who is now retired, but was at one time a supplier of some fairly complex scale stationary steam and a few marine engine casting sets as well. According to him, the major difficulty today is finding any foundry at all that’s willing to do high quality and consistent castings at a price most model engineers might be willing to pay. Right or wrong, a single set of poor castings with hard spots, defects, inclusions, internal voids, undersized etc might lose a lot of sales and any supplier of casting kits reputation for months or even years if even one of those issues are ever posted online.

That consistent quality isn’t optional and almost always comes with a higher price. Don’t expect to do the same as any of the other M.E. casting suppliers are doing, you need to decide to do it better than they are. At one time Stuart Turner were always known to provide soft, even and easy to machine castings, I assume that’s what made them as trusted and well known as they once were. Due to multiple ownership changes in the last 30 years or so. They have had a few quality control issues, although I’m not sure if that’s still true. Even Revees 2000 has had at least some complaints about casting quality, and sometimes from a few posts I’ve read, very arrogant customer service attitudes. Maybe the poster deserved it, or maybe not?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Casting quality and finding foundries is certainly a big issue. You may have been Ok when looking to have large batches done but a lot of foundries are not so interested in small runs or loose patterns. Those that are understandaby charge more as it takes longer to mould them

Also unlike industry we have a greater need for a visually good looking casting, mould shift may be Ok on an industrial item but does not clean up well on a model and if the section is thin can create even more issues as by the time you have fettled what was supposed to be a round casting it ends up decidedly oval.

Al these small castings from a kit ended up in teh bin due to mound shift as well as being hard. Also not really anything like the full size looked

Likewise with the almost universal use of bound sand these days there is a tendancy to just dump a load of sand into the box and ram it down. This does not compact the sand so well against vertical surfaces so you end up with a casting that has rough coarse sides and a smooth top, does nothing for the looks. Couple of examples, you should be able to see the flat surfaces have quite a nice acceptable texture but the vertical are far rougher due to the sand not being compacted as well.

Hard areas can be somewhat eliminated by additional heat treatment after casting but that again is going to add costs to the raw casting. More castings for the scrap bin as carbide would not really touch it. Voids in other parts are another problem.

Some can be avoided by using Gun Metal which is why you see it used quite a lot on smaller model castings but that will be more expensive than cast iron and brings with it other problems for the beginner like easily marked or even bent as well as the possibility of drills grabbing. Investment casting the GM would eliminate a few more issues but that is even more expensive than sand casting.

3D printing in metal would be an option but probably going to push the price up particularly if Paul wants it printed in the UK and not overseas. Same for CNC unles Paul’s milling facility is a CNC machine that is sitting idle part of the day.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Actually they grind it in 1m lengths which are available as are 500mm but deep pocketed model engineers only want to stump up for 333mm, must use a 0.5mm kerf sawblade.

< sigh >

I was answering in the context of Duncan’s question.

MichaelG.

.

P.S.

Nice shopping page here:

https://www.silver-steel.co.uk/product/bs1407-silver-steel-metric/

 

[JAParticipant @ja]

The only iron castings I have bought in the last ten years have been from Stuarts (Bridport foundry) and Reeves. The Stuart castings have been excellent while some of the Reeves have had hard, chilled, patches and one had a major casting defect. I don’t know if one can say chilling is a defect (years ago it would be cured using a domestic coal fire). The casting with the major defect was replaced without question after having it on my shelf for three years.

The old Reeves company had a terrible reputation for bad castings and poor customer relations. I believe they also handled their suppliers badly.

I am not sure about the strength of printed metal but I intend to get a part produced as a trial. However the service offered to model engineers appears to be changing rapidly (I guess this is not surprising).

JA

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Julie should have an article coming out soon in the mag which should answer your questions about strength.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

The issues of good, soft castings will never be cheap ! Jason and others have commented. To get the sort or quality that one would expect reliably needs to start with a perfect pattern designed by someone who understands the process. Shrinkage and any machining allowances + understanding how machining will be done, so chucking pieces Etc included. Next the mold needs to be specially rammed, or better done by hand with the right type of sand. Gun metal is expensive, just look at the price of copper, Iron of the right type for small castings is also expensive. The melting of the metal must be carefully controlled, inoculants, fluxes or degassing = more money.  The pouring of the metal needs to be done with great care if inclusions or voids are to be avoided. Fuel costs have gone through the roof. Then there’s the inevitable failure = more cost.

Foundries to do this sort of work rely on an ever shrinking pool of skilled folk to whom the quality of the product is as important as the money.  Noel.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Is quality more important than cost? I think so but looking at model engineering in general I feel part of the minority.

JA

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