saving money at the pump

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I drive a 2 litre petrol car because I like it. I’ve just replaced my four year old car with a new (pre-reg 100 mile) version of the exactly same car. They stopped building them last year, so when a combination of a very good part exchange price and very deep discount from list was offered – it was far to good to resist.

I had to go to the local dealership yesterday for a “Recall” (basically a software update on the lane changing warning) and sat in the showroom looking at huge SUV/EVs from Jaecoo etc. This is the future and it’s all Chinese.

Meanwhile, I drove my new car (still running her in) up to a GTG in Bedford recently and hypermiled up and drove normally back. Going up, we just drifted along at 55-65 and at around 70 on the return trip. I managed 50mpg up and 46 on the whole 160 mile round trip journey.

I’m paying £1.559/litre currently but half (79p) of that is tax. Even though I didn’t pay full price, I still have £620 “Luxury” VED to pay for 5 years. I drive about 3,500 miles per annum, so at 40mpg that is 18p/mile.  A strangely symetrical £620.13p in fuel and £620 in VED and a most of that is just tax. The cost of my ‘new’ car was less than any of the new Jaecoo’s I saw (between £34k and £68K) yesterday.

I doubt I pay any more to insure my car (than if it was an EV) and it may even be cheaper?

My conclusion is that as I ilke (love!) my current vehicle and much of the cost to drive it is actually tax,  when the number of old ICE suckers like myself die off – the Government will find new ways to tax EVs instead.

I don’t think you will have to wait too long either.   🙂

Regards,

 

IanT

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

The high thermal expansion coefficient of aluminium, about 30% higher than copper, is an issue. It causes work hardening and fatigue. It is also an issue in motors and transformers as it much higher than iron or steel. High motor efficiency is dependent on small clearances and low resistance. Aluminium is poorer than copper in both respects as you have to allow for expansion / differential movment. Additionally resistance is about 50% higher increasing heating or needing thicker conductors.

Robert

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Aluminium has been used in cables and overhead line conductors for many years in the U.K. electricity supply industry.

It is not a new thing!

 

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

The high thermal expansion coefficient of aluminium, about 30% higher than copper, is an issue. It causes work hardening and fatigue. It is also an issue in motors and transformers as it much higher than iron or steel. High motor efficiency is dependent on small clearances and low resistance. Aluminium is poorer than copper in both respects as you have to allow for expansion / differential movment. Additionally resistance is about 50% higher increasing heating or needing thicker conductors.

Robert

So you think a webpost by a retired advocate for the aluminium industry overrides the laws of physics?

 

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Change some antiquated standards and designs – easy, the need to protect crimped and clamped connections from the air will no longer apply. The extra heat from the increased resistance will no longer come from the electricity carried.

Win win.

As Stuart says the use is not new. The 80’s copper shortage forced the use of Ali in BT for Bus bars and ug cables. It required the use of disgusting grease filled crimps on ordinary local network phone lines to connect to the little copper tails still needed in the green distribution cabinets.

[Dave Halford]

On Dave Halford Said:

Change some antiquated standards and designs – easy, the need to protect crimped and clamped connections from the air will no longer apply. The extra heat from the increased resistance will no longer come from the electricity carried.

Win win.

As Stuart says the use is not new. The 80’s copper shortage forced the use of Ali in BT for Bus bars and ug cables. It required the use of disgusting grease filled crimps on ordinary local network phone lines to connect to the little copper tails still needed in the green distribution cabinets.

“The extra heat from the increased resistance will no longer come from the electricity carried.” What is this supposed to mean?

 

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

On Dave Halford Said:

Change some antiquated standards and designs – easy, the need to protect crimped and clamped connections from the air will no longer apply. The extra heat from the increased resistance will no longer come from the electricity carried.

Win win.

As Stuart says the use is not new. The 80’s copper shortage forced the use of Ali in BT for Bus bars and ug cables. It required the use of disgusting grease filled crimps on ordinary local network phone lines to connect to the little copper tails still needed in the green distribution cabinets.

“The extra heat from the increased resistance will no longer come from the electricity carried.” What is this supposed to mean?

 

Well if you are going to claim ali is as good as copper by re-writing the specs you have to deal with the inconveniences of engineering reality some how and denial is the only way.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Hi Dave,

I’m the one saying aluminium isn’t as good as copper and has significant challenges for use in motors etc.

Robert.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

On Dave Halford Said:

Change some antiquated standards and designs – easy, the need to protect crimped and clamped connections from the air will no longer apply. The extra heat from the increased resistance will no longer come from the electricity carried.

Win win.

As Stuart says the use is not new. The 80’s copper shortage forced the use of Ali in BT for Bus bars and ug cables. It required the use of disgusting grease filled crimps on ordinary local network phone lines to connect to the little copper tails still needed in the green distribution cabinets.

“The extra heat from the increased resistance will no longer come from the electricity carried.” What is this supposed to mean?

 

On Dave Halford Said:

…

 

As Stuart says the use is not new. The 80’s copper shortage forced the use of Ali in BT for Bus bars and ug cables. It required the use of disgusting grease filled crimps on ordinary local network phone lines to connect to the little copper tails still needed in the green distribution cabinets.

Milton Keynes was built with aluminium local phone network cables. I believe it had dire effects when it came to rolling out broadband.

Aluminium used quite a lot in making squirrel cage rotors for induction motors, it can be injected directly into the lamination stack.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Yes, diecast aluminium rotors are common in smaller squirrel cage induction motor rotors. This is because of cost. It is not often used in the windings, even on aircraft where weight is important.

Robert.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

“Resistance is futile”

🙂

I can get 67mpg out of my Hyundai diesel, but I would like to switch to electric when I can.

My impression as a passenger and knowing an ever-increasing number of electric car drivers is that electrics are cheaper to run and better to drive; so in practice, what’s not to like?

Neil

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

On Vic Said:

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

The high thermal expansion coefficient of aluminium, about 30% higher than copper, is an issue. It causes work hardening and fatigue. It is also an issue in motors and transformers as it much higher than iron or steel. High motor efficiency is dependent on small clearances and low resistance. Aluminium is poorer than copper in both respects as you have to allow for expansion / differential movment. Additionally resistance is about 50% higher increasing heating or needing thicker conductors.

Robert

So you think a webpost by a retired advocate for the aluminium industry overrides the laws of physics?

 

Well I’d take his word over yours. But then of course he’s not the only one is he. Many in industry are saying it’s a viable option in many cases.

[Neil Wyatt]

On Neil Wyatt

My impression as a passenger and knowing an ever-increasing number of electric car drivers is that electrics are cheaper to run and better to drive; so in practice, what’s not to like?

Neil

Exactly, nothing Neil. I’m paying about 17p a mile for my petrol car whilst our EV is currently only 5.5P a mile and we’re on a standard tariff at the moment. Many are currently paying 1.7p to 1.9p a mile. It’s smooth, quiet and really nice to drive. From what I’ve read around 95% that have actually got an EV would never go back to an ICE car, that has to tell you something.

Ev’s aren’t suitable for everyone at the moment, but that’s really no reason to make stuff up to try and put potential customers off like some have been doing.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

So you think a webpost by a retired advocate for the aluminium industry overrides the laws of physics?

 

https://medium.com/the-future-is-electric/the-copper-constraint-that-isnt-58cbfcd48f9e

 

[FatgadgiParticipant @fatgadgi]

Agreed Neil …. what’s not to like.

I bought my EV because driving it (for me) is just so enjoyable, best car I’ve ever had.

I never considered the cost side as a deciding factor when I bought it, but it’s a very nice extra 😊

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Having driven IC engine vehicles for nearly 60 years I had my first drive in an electric today. Apart from a strong urge to change gear coming out of a roundabout it was very impressive. Stopping every 2.5 hours or so for a brew and recharge seems very acceptable to me, and I can charge on my drive, so what’s not to like.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

And it was reported in the newspaper that allowing cutting a groove in the pavement to allow charging leads to cross, with a proper lid, is under consideration, thus allowing home charging for those without a drive.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Duncan, you would soon lose that urge to change gear!  Mine is geared to have good torque right up to about 100mph – at least in sport mode!  Torque at low speeds far exceeds most ICEVs of similar size.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

I went to a talk recently by the man from Plymouth City Council responsible for EV infrastructure. PCC are looking at on-street charging using, among other options, pop-up chargers in the pavement. They are also looking at the groove-across-the-pavement approach to allow individuals to charge. Still thinking about issues like whether non-EVs will be allowed to park in charging slots. Currently the answer is yes as the EV population is still relatively small. In the future there will also be a need for things like disabled access charging points. But the charging infrastructure seems to be developing rapidly so I’m not too worried about my forthcoming trips to France and Scotland. Only the cost of public charging which seems to be around the same cost per mile as my old diesel although France looks rather cheaper. Like many people, though, most of my miles are short journeys from home for which an EV is ideal so as an engineer I accept the compromise.

I was sold on EVs the first time I drove one and took delivery the day after – the dealer had an ex-demonstrator available that was just the spec I wanted. Its range is greater than my bladder capacity and will recharge in about 15mins so I’m not anticipating major problems. I don’t want to tow a trailer or drive for 4 hours non-stop as I was daft enough to do in the past and the boot is big enough to take my 5″ loco and tender – when I’ve finished it…

I’m seeing more local delivery and tradesman’s EV vans around these days. I don’t know if EV is the way to go for HGVs and other “difficult” loads – maybe hydrogen will eventually get there – but in the meantime us EV drivers are helping eke out the remaining resources for the dinosaur-burners! He says, very tongue-in-cheek…

[IanTParticipant @iant]

It’s good so many of you are happy with your new EVs – they clearly suit you and I wish you joy.

I still feel that much of the cost advantage is purely down to taxation and that of course will not last. I also wish that Government would just butt out of my life and leave these things to me (and the market) to decide. I don’t recall being made to buy a “smart” phone (instead of just keeping my trusty old Nokia) but I did eventually so.

In the meanwhile this old guy watched a sobering YT a little while ago that talked about our inability to stop saving (& being very prudent) well into old age. In essence, you can’t take it with you. The last screenshot just said “Spend the Bl**dy Money!” – so I’m trying.

I’m very happy with my new girlfriend.  We’ve been going out for a couple of months now and she’s making an old man very happy. Better still. the wife is happy too   🙂

IanT

 

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I think I have a good idea of the vehicle Neal bought/leased, whatever.

Guessing it is not a Tesla.

While mine is not a Tesla, I do arrange to charge at O2A Superchargers on my longer journeys.  Adderstone might be a good option, if going up the east coast road.  Then it is in easy reach of Perth.

I could have charged at Glasgow on my way back, but chose to drive to Gretna, for a single full charge, on the homeward journey.  Gretna was more expensive than Adderstone.🙁   It will be the east coast road both ways, for me, next time!

 

[VicParticipant @vic]

On 11 May 2026 at 09:35 IanT Said:

“I also wish that Government would just butt out of my life and leave these things to me (and the market) to decide. I don’t recall being made to buy a “smart” phone (instead of just keeping my trusty old Nokia) but I did eventually so.”

The obvious difference is that old Nokias don’t cause more air pollution than smart phones. Or put another way, should car buyers have the option going forward to purchase vehicles that we know cause premature death. I don’t disagree in principle about choice, as long as it not harming anyone else.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Yes, agreed Vic.

Same as smoking cigarettes (and using other banned items).

Same as seat belts being worn while driving.

There are lots of things like that, if we look more closely.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

if we look more closely

Well let’s look more closely then…  🙂

My car has a dry weight of 1405kgs and fully fuelled weighs about 1507kgs. It would be classed as a “Medium” sized car. The equivalent EV is likely to be at least 25% heavier than my car.

My car generates 160g/km of CO2 but CO2 doesn’t harm people. Sit in any crowded room and CO2 levels will be at least twice that of those outside. Climate Change is a different discussion of course.

My car meets the latest Euro 6D emmission standards, so (for instance) I can enter London’s ULEZ without charge. It is very clean by historical standards. The SMMT (Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders), claims: “It would take 50 new cars today to produce the same amount of pollutant emissions as one vehicle built in the 1970s.”

So let’s discuss Particulate Matter (PM) emmissions, those caused by brake and tyre wear.

There have been scientific papers written on the subject and here are two quotes from one:

“Compared to ICEVs {ICE vehicles} the advantage of EVs is that they have no exhaust emissions, but EVs will emit abundant non-exhaust emissions due to the heavier weight than ICEVs (Hooftman et al., 2018). This implies that the increasing popularity of EVs might not trigger a remarkable reduction in PM levels and no significant improvement in air quality”

“These results show that the total non-exhaust PM from the equivalent EVs may exceed all PM from ICE passenger cars, including exhaust particle emissions, which are dependent mainly on the extent of regenerative braking, followed by passenger car type and road type. PM10 EFs for equivalent EVs without regenerative braking on urban, rural, and motorway roads are all higher than those from ICE cars”

Source:  Comparitive Analysis

So, as I’ve already said, EVs may suit some but not all. Porsche has just laid off 500 workers. We are in the process of killing off an important European (and UK) industry for (what in my opinion) is a badly timed and ill-thought out government policy.

If you like your EVs and they make sense to you, good – I wish you well. But they are very far from perfect at the moment, with both the technology and charging infrastructure still developing. Nor are they as “clean” as some seem to imagine. The current EV tax treatment will also change as ICE vehicles disappear from our roads.

Regards,

 

IanT

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Picking up Dunacan’s point about cable channels across pavements, I could in theory do that as the down-spout from my home’s front roof uses such a channel to put the rainwater into the street drains! The covers’ original “nuts” (mild steel pressings) were rusted solid but I managed to break them and replace them with nuts made from hot-rolled steel bar and stainless-steel set-screws. That was so I could clean out the mud that accumulates in the channel.

I have used this channel to supply a (conventional) battery-charger.

However what all the on-street charging proponents still will not grasp is that if you have to park on the street there is NO guarantee you can always park outside your home – and often, not even in the same street. Further, if councils provide public-use charging-points in residential roads where kerbside parking is the only option, these will force even more motorists to park any old where.

Even estates with supposedly dedicated residents’ car-parks cannot guarantee exclusive access to “your” bay.

I know perfectly well that no-one is entitled to an exclusive parking space on a public highway outside the home; but I am afraid these ideas of pavement channels or dedicated charging spots are absurd. They are dreamt up by types paid enough to buy big suburban homes with their own drives, so do not understand the problems they face or cause.

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