Need contacts with high speed lathes (to make a firing pin)

[Brandon BertolliParticipant @brandonbertolli11151]

[Brandon BertolliParticipant @brandonbertolli11151]

Hi All

I hope someone can steer me in the right direction, as I have tried numerous engineering firms and been turned down by all of them.

I have a firing pin that I need duplicated (from a sample). It is something that can be made on a high speed lathe, from tool steel.

I am attaching a picture of the pin, it's dimensions are roughly 54mm x 5.5mm cylindrical.

Small side note: this firing pin is not a pressure bearing component and is therefore not a restricted item in terms of firearms components manufacture. However the firearm from which the firing pin originates is held on a UK firearms certificate and I will provide the contact number for the police firearms enquiry team in London, if anyone has any questions about the legality of manufacturing such a component from a sample. (I think the term "firing pin" needlessly scared all the engineering firms off and that is why I am turning to the hobbyists for help).

Thanks for your help in advance!

Brandon

Edited By JasonB on 04/04/2014 07:23:01

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Hello Brandon,

I'm sure it would be a job of simplicity for any of us so minded to take it on, but like the engineering firms you have approached already I'm sure I speak for all in that we would need to be reassured that we would not be contributing to or enabling an illegal weapon to be brought to life.

You say you will provide a contact number for the police in London; I imagine just entering that area would be absolutely fraught with complications " I see Sir, how did you get this request and where do you live? " being just the start of it. The SWAT teams would be upon you in a crack.

So, a bit more work on your part please to increase the transparency is needed I think before you are likely to get a volunteer.

Kind regards

Brian

[Neil GreenawayParticipant @neilgreenaway71611]

Hi Brandon,

Have you contacted any gunsmiths to source a suitable manufacture – some have machine shops and would be very capable of manufacturing such an item – and to add to it they would be in a better position to maintain the legal aspects in the correct order. I believe Hollow farm guns in Northern Ireland have done work of this nature in the past. Even if your local gun shop does not have a machine shop of their own they may be able to have a pin manufactured very ligitimately with less queries?

Many thanks,

Neil.

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

It is a sad reflection on our society when we automatically assume that someone seeking help with a gun part is making an illegal gun. All we have to do is have sight of his firearms or shotgun certificate (whichever is appropriate) to see the gun listed and be assured that it is legally held. However, I do recommend Brandon to go to a registered firearms dealer, if only to be assured that the pin will be properly hardened and tempered.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

It Looks like the firing pin from a sidearm or automatic weapon.

I would want to know if the law of the land where you live allows a third party lo legally produce a part for a firearm, I suspect the answer will be no, it would make the producer a manufacturer. In Australia where I come from I believe it would be illegal.

Regards
John

Edited By John McNamara on 04/04/2014 15:53:13

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Brandon has assured us that it would be legal to make the part in the UK, and as he has made it clear he can put the person making it in touch with the firearms team at the Met. I would suggest that anyone considering assisting takes up that offer.

Nonetheless, I think the advice to contact a gunsmith is probably the best route for Brandon to take.

Neil

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

"You say you will provide a contact number for the police in London; I imagine just entering that area would be absolutely fraught with complications " I see Sir, how did you get this request and where do you live? " being just the start of it. The SWAT teams would be upon you in a crack."

Not really. This component does not require any special paperwork or permits. I have an RFD certificate (if anyone knows what that is) and there is no way I would jepordise it, for any reason, but taking this job on would not expose you to any liability and I would be quite comfortable with it.

I often receive – at home – packages from America labelled "Gun Parts" and although opened much of the time they just arrive in due course. But then my name is on a list down at the firearms and explosives department. Not every Police Officer knows that and there have been one or two occasions where I have needed to explain the facts.

Not had the ARU yet, but then I do shoot with a number of them so can't see that being much trauma either.

graham.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Perhaps just to explain my reasons a little further from earlier on in this thread. I would think it appropriate for Brandon to make the running with the London firearms people since he is the certificate holder rather than whichever of us is prepared to help him out and then stumble through the inevitable questions that are sure to arise.

I agree with Mike that this is a sad reflection on the times we live in now when a man's word is under examination in a sensitive area like this.

The very last thing I would want is a visit to my workshop to see what I am doing there and then find I have to register my activity because I've made a gun part. I agree with the others, rather reluctantly, that he would be better off altogether in going to a registered professional for the work. Technically it is a doddle, politically for the novice a minefield

Regards

Brian

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I used to make triggers for the Heckler and Kosh MP5 and let me assure you that when you have made in excess of 10,000 of these buggers you don't want to see another firearm again.

And just to explain making one part does not make it a firearm. Although the job was subbed out from the RoF Nottingham, no one was interested in any paperwork.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Brian with respect and atthe risk of grinding on he ddoesn’t need to contct anyone. He just needs a part making. It isn’t anything untoward or unusual and as a matter of fact I made two of these yesterday. If everyone had to call the firearms and explosives department every time we needed to make anything we would get nothing done. And tgd people theee would probably start questioning our competence if we didn’t know what we were doing. He has already said he has the firearm certificate and that is quite good enough.

[Brian WoodParticipant @brianwood45127]

Well then Graham, away you go, I have plenty to do and no wish to get in anyone else's way.

Regards Brian

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Hi Brandon,

I think you may have realised your mistake in mentioning the word "firearm", just take that word out of the conversation and you should have no problem getting it made.

Tony

[Brandon BertolliParticipant @brandonbertolli11151]

Many thanks, all, for the replies!

I did originally approach three gunsmiths to make this for me. The first one has a lathe that isn't fast enough, he could not make the pin and recommended I find someone with a high speed lathe (more than 4000 rpm in his opinion).

The second one can make the pin, but he wants the whole rifle sent in (which is an unnecessary expense to me because I have to pay £15 for Parcelforce to mail it out and then I have to pay an RFD a small fee to receive the rifle back, as it cannot be mailed back to me directly. On top of that, I don't want my red dot sight and magazines being mucked around with in transit or at the gunsmith. It is faster just to have the pin duplicated.

The third guy will make it on a CNC unit, but at unacceptable expense.

Now the question about the part itself.

It is from a semi-automatic .22 rifle, specifically a SIG-SAUER 522. SIG Arms in the USA will not send out parts to me here in the UK, and they won't send parts to the UK distributor either. So I'm pretty much stuck unless I have it made here in the UK or try to source one from a gunsmith in the US.

As many have said already, manufacturing or possessing the firing pin for this rifle is not the same as manufacturing or possessing pressure-bearing components or whole barrels and receivers for firearms. It is an unrestricted part entirely, the same as the hammer and the trigger.

Here is the gun:

[URL=http://s55.photobucket.com/user/Odd_Job/media/522-2014_zps3b0f2e18.jpg.html][IMG]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/522-2014_zps3b0f2e18.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

It's on my Firearms Certificate (along with two other rifles).

The Firearms Enquiry Team can verify that my FAC is valid:

Tel: 0207 161 4750

[email protected]

6th Floor
Empress State Building
Empress Approach
London
SW6 1TR

I'll give whoever makes the pin my FAC number if they are still worried they are helping the next Carlos the jackal

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Glad you still have a sense of humour sir.

You have to understand the worries ( groundless or otherwise)..

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

As a matter of fact Brandon, you can have the gun posted directly back to you if you sent it in the first place. The firearms laws are a bit barmy. I cannot for instance sell a barrel for a specific gun to anyone unless it is via an RFD. I can however sell a barrel blank. With which you can make a barrell for (almost) anything, as long as it is the caliber of that blank. Bonkers.

Anyway, there is a private message facility on here. You may want to check your inbox.

graham.

(and for what it's worth, Tony is on the right track. Take out the word "firearm" and it becomes less emotive)

Edited By Oompa Lumpa on 04/04/2014 19:18:40

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Just some comments from a man who has done a little bit of machining, you do not need a lathe that can go to 4000 rpm to make this part, you do not need a CNC lathe to make it and you do not need to send the whole rifle to any one just to make the pin.

You just need a decent engineer who can turn to fairly tight limits and I would imagine the pin would need heat treating?

Tony

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

The pin would certainly require heat treating.

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Hi Brandon. If its any help I would gladly make it for you if my lather would spin that fast – but it wont! I make fireworks also known as explosives, but that doesnt make me a bad person! Besides, if you were a terrorist you would have a near endless supply of firearms available to you……

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Machinabilty ratings for various tool steel classes are listed below.

Tool Steel Class, Grade	Machinability Rating
W (W-1, W-2)	100%
S (S-5, S-7)	60-70
O (O-1, O-6)	45-60
A (A-2, A-6)	45-60
D (D-2, D-3)	30-40
H (H-11, H-13)	60-70
M2	40-50
M3-M4	35-40
T-15	25-30
A-11	35-45
M48

[Brandon BertolliParticipant @brandonbertolli11151]

Thanks, all, I will be sending the pin to Graham to duplicate.

[Involute CurveParticipant @involutecurve]

This is a question for all but pointed at Graham

If I made a part that was intended for a firearm but I was unaware of this fact i.e someone sent me a part to duplicate without telling me what it was, how would I stand legally in the paranoid world we find ourselves?

Just curious……….

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

And for all you folk who think "Gunsmithing" is a mysterious art or something requiring forbidden knowledge. This was the job today:

Remove two forestock screws that some Neanderthal had forced in. The person concerned had managed to get two 5mm button heads quite a ways down 3/16 UNF holes before rounding out the hex so they were impossible to remove. WHY? Not just the one, when it bound up he started in on the second? Amazingly e hadn't put a scratch on the stock. When I did get them out the decision then was – Tap it 5mm or helicoil?

Lot of this sort of stuff. People using spray cooking oil on a Beretta Walnut Stock? I think I do it because I never cease to be amazed at people's creativity when they have decided to be really, really stupid. Or some of the advice they take. A friend of a client had taken a french polishing course at the college and decided to try his skills on a £6k piece "as a favour"!

The all time classic piece of work I ever saw though was someone take a blowtorchh to a stock to give it a "camouflage look". French Burl Walnut Stock, I could have cried. If it had been mine I would have.

Home Blueing jobs are another favourite. Always a disaster. (For the record my friend is one of the best Gun Blue people in the country, highly thought of. I am not nearly half as good. Everything goes to him to be Blued after dismantling. Though I am very good a Jewelling, plenty of practice).

graham.

Edited By Oompa Lumpa on 04/04/2014 20:53:34

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Involute Curve on 04/04/2014 20:49:49:

This is a question for all but pointed at Graham

If I made a part that was intended for a firearm but I was unaware of this fact i.e someone sent me a part to duplicate without telling me what it was, how would I stand legally in the paranoid world we find ourselves?

Just curious……….

Well, the famous case Shaun was the WMD Guns being manufactured in Teesside if you remember. The works manager said they were just very long pipes!

However, if you received a drawing or a part and asked to manufacture two, twenty, a hundred and you did, there would be no comeback.

On the other hand. If you manufactured a pressure bearing face – Breech for instance, or a Barrel, you would be on thin ice. But as an engineer, you would be reasonably expected to know that if you were supplied drawings of a tube with rifling down it you would know what it was for. Or if the drawings specified pressure limits but was not a pressure vessel you would be suspicious. I know I would.

You have to apply the "reasonable person" rule. If some department over at ICI Wilton were in touch and wanted twenty widgets – the drawing and purchase order were on their way, you would check you had enough stock for the job. If some bloke down the pub approached you wanting you to "make a bit of a one-off, keep it quiet, the alarm bells would be ringing.

And the Police don't know what they are doing most of the time either. Recently here in Manchester there was the (in)famous raid – "we have arrested people concerned with the production of a 3D printed Gun". errr- no they hadn't. What they had done was arrest somebody who printed parts to make RepRap printers and the Professor from (Bristol I believe) University made a statement to that effect because he had asked the chap to print the parts. The story went quietly away.

As Brandon alluded to in his post, There are only two parts of a gun that will really get you into a lot of trouble – The pressure area, the Breech, or the Barrel. Outside of that there is nothing stopping you manufacturing – as John Stevenson said he did 10,000 triggers – as many parts as you wish. They are not controlled. Now, put all of those parts together……..

graham.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I'm a bit far away, but the last firing pin I made for a .22 rifle, was a new one for my Stevens Favorite(they are beggars for breaking firing pins), I used my Super Adept lathe, as I had no other at the time, it would be lucky to exceed 400rpm. Ian S C

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