Mystery Willard Lathe Tool

[brian roberts 2Participant @brianroberts2]

Hello all,

I am seeking information about a swan-neck tool-holder I have acquired.

It is marked "Willard NO.OF-S" and is 7" overall length, 2 ½" deep at the cutting end and ¾" thick.

As can be seen in the images,the method of securing a replaceable tool 'tip' is different from most others.

I have looked under references to USA-made Willard lathes, which seemed to be in their heyday around the 1920's, but have been unable to find anything remotely like this tool holder.

If anyone out there has any information I should be very interested to know what size and shape of cutter is carried by this holder.

I don't think I'll use it on my SB Heavy 10, but would like to try it out on my shaper and benefit from the swan-neck configuration.

Regards,

Brian

[brian roberts 2Participant @brianroberts2]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This one bears a family resemblance, Brian : **LINK**

https://www.normanmachinetool.com/product/willard-tool-co-2e-spring-tool-holder-with-hs-2e-cutter-vintage/

MichaelG.

[brian roberts 2Participant @brianroberts2]

Thanks Michael,

That's an interesting tool you discovered and seems to verify the period I had in mind.

Another reply received from the USA suggested that mine used a circular cutter, like a fat washer, which may point to it being used for finishing cuts on flat surfaces.

Regards,

Brian

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Looks similar to this.

This is a complete form threading tool. Without the cutting disk it looks similar tovyour holder.

Martin C

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

i will have to try making up a spring tool one day

A doodle in Google found a few!

**LINK**

[brian roberts 2Participant @brianroberts2]

Thanks Martin & John for your contributions,

It's a bit like a No. 19 bus – you wait for ages then two or more come along. I've been looking for a while and found very little on the Willard range of lathe tooling until I posted my enquiry – now eBay and other sites seem to feature variations on the one iI've got. I haven't yet been able to identify the exact style of cutter that the tool held, but live in hope.

Brian

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

If the swan neck spring effect is to be in the correct orientation the tool needs to bolt up from underneath. Which means a fairly shallow tool with a pair of round holes. Large for the stud, small for the pin. Which seems both illogical and expensive.

Make more sense if there is another part that bolts onto it to actually carry the tool. Guide pin would ensure consistent location. But that really only kicks problem a bit further down the road because we still don't know what the tool was like.

Wild guess is a sort of quick change swan neck tool system. Its American so would probably be used in the abominable lantern type tool-post with its inherent lack of rigidity and essential impossibility of interchanging tools without loosing the setting. In principle tools in simple holders could be set up once and changed as required by simply undoing the nut without resetting.

Like Martin I first thought of the once popular form threading tools, I have a bunch of SKF-Johansson-Dormer ones and they are great. The holders even have a similar split configuration with a screw for fine adjustment. But the Willard tool puts the swan neck flex in line with the bed rather than perpendicular to it which doesn't seem as if it would be useful.

Clive.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Martin Connelly on 04/01/2019 21:54:35:

Looks similar to this.

This is a complete form threading tool. Without the cutting disk it looks similar tovyour holder.

Martin C

Martin, Is that actually yours, or is it a web photo? I ask as I've a pair of inserts, one each 55 and 60 degree, and keep meaning to make a holder for them.

How do they clamp up; is it just a countersink screw with a left hand thread? Certainly a csk with right hand thread just unscrews in use.

Thanks

Bill

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

It is mine, I have a couple of different pitch cutters for it. Do you want photos with the cutter off? If so it will need to be in a few days from now as I am away from home.
Martin C

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Bill

Three pictures of the very similar Johansson / SKF / Dormer system. Note the socket headed grubscrew in the front view. The left hand threaded countersunk socket head that holds the chaser in place has a flat on it for that grub screw to bear on providing extra insurance against things unscrewing.

Countersunk screw appears to have a non standard angle on the head making it shallower. Whole head can be twisted on the shank to match thread helix angle and locked using the second nut. As can be seen in first picture the standard chasers have two cutting points to generate full form for each pitch so setting helix correctly is important with coarser threads.

Just visible in the last picture is a screw used for fine adjustment of cutting height buy springing the swan neck.

I have a good selection of UNF and Whitworth form pitches but no metric. Does anyone know where metric ones can be got from?

Clive

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Thanks Clive, these are mine, bought at a model engineering show years ago, but never put into use as I never got round to making a proper holder for them.

There's no markings at all, other than the 55° or 60° etchings. Interestingly, the cutting edge seems to be ground level with the top of the hole, rather than its centre.

A bit hard to see from this photo, but the countersunk hole is double angled, the reverse is ground flush.

Bill

[ZanParticipant @zan]

My version has the disc held on a serrated spigot to enable it to be rotated to the helix angle of the thread

Edited By Zan on 05/01/2019 20:55:46

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Bill

Yours are for a Denford / Andycraft American toolholder system. Pictures of one, also on 5 mm squared background, in the Andycraft C50R holder in my album Denford Threading Tool Holder **LINK** . I presume there were C50L and C50S holders too as being bent the other way and straight.

Perhaps we should give Brian his thread back now.

Maybe a moderator should split this thread putting the Johansson and Denford references into another appropriately titled one. with all appropriate pictures in line.

Clive.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Thanks Clive, and sorry Brian.

I wonder if the artwork on the front of this book was inspired by your gizmo. 

Back on topic; I also wonder if it's a shaper toolholder, maybe for gear cutting, or some other specific profile cutting.

The Willard Lathes references might be a bit of a red herring as all the stuff I could find on them places the firm in Ohio, rather than Connecticut, such as this one on VintageMachinery where you can download several documents about their lathes.

Bill

 

Edited By peak4 on 06/01/2019 00:03:16

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Right just found something on Google Image Search

a similar tool described as a shaper tool described as

VINTAGE WILLARD 4B SMALL METAL SHAPER SPRING TYPE TOOL HOLDER PAT'D 1917

Bill

[peak4Participant @peak4]

See also on ebay, another 4b

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 06/01/2019 01:28:44

[brian roberts 2Participant @brianroberts2]

Clive & Bill,

That was an interesting diversion and confirms that an understanding of Geometry, particularly tangents, can be of help in engineering !

Those images look similar Bill, which narrows the field a bit, but I've yet to find one marked 'OF-S' and determine the shape of the actual cutter – so the hunt continues.

Thanks for the contributions chaps.

Brian

Edited By brian roberts 2 on 06/01/2019 08:33:47

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The patent took a little finding … because Willard was his middle name : **LINK**

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/da/25/0d/dd8afdc46cb43d/US1214225.pdf

MichaelG.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Posted by Clive Foster on 05/01/2019 13:51:01:

I have a good selection of UNF and Whitworth form pitches but no metric. Does anyone know where metric ones can be got from?

Clive

I have a full set of metric ones that I never use. Some are un-used. I'll dig them out Clive.

Edited By Pete Rimmer on 06/01/2019 10:59:10

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Sparey showed something like that in his book,he said it was the best type for threading,and easy to make.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

The idea of the swan neck tool, also used for my pet hate, parting off, is that instead of the top rake angle tending to pull the tool into the work if it digs in, the split in the swan neck allows the cutter to move away from the work, thus preventing damage to cutter, job, and soiled underwear!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Phil Whitley on 06/01/2019 14:25:30:

The idea of the swan neck tool, also used for my pet hate, parting off, is that instead of the top rake angle tending to pull the tool into the work if it digs in, the split in the swan neck allows the cutter to move away from the work, thus preventing damage to cutter, job, and soiled underwear!

.

Well put, Phil … 'though the patent doesn't actually claim savings on laundry costs.

MichaelG.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Nice find Michael.

Love those old style drawings. Clear and just that bit more elegant than modern CAD prints.

Looks like the screw adjustment feature to limit the amount of spring and, probably, adjust the tool tip stiffness too didn't make it into production.

Still no answer as to what sort of tool mounts on the one Brian has. As I read the patent there is a reference to supporting the tool laterally by contact with the side of the tool holder. The parting off tool holder seems to get extra support in that manner. Suggests the idea that the one Brian has may have been made to carry tools in small separate holders bolted up onto the spring unit with face almost rubbing against the tool holder body to provide support it it tries to twist isn't completely implausible. I imagine these spring holders would have been relatively expensive new so separate tool-holders to fit a common sprung shank seems a good way of making a more affordable system.

Pete. PM sent.

Clive.

[Jeff LongcoreParticipant @jefflongcore79251]

I know that this is an old-ish thread, but I just came by one of these. Actually 2, because the lot also included a Willard No. 4D cutoff tool holder as well. My tool holder is marked as a 0-F. There is also the number 5 stamped on the bottom which may be the size, or a part number. The tool came with 3 cutters: 2 blanks, and one that had been ground to a shape.

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