lathe to cut 26tpi

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Michael

Ah, I'm with you now, thank you. I thought for a moment you might have meant Boxford weren't British made, but I don't like to assume.

And yes of course, I should have thought of Myford's advertising blurb.

As NDIY says, there can be a lot of difference between 'made' and 'assembled', with some creative use of the word 'made'!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by David Standing 1 on 16/01/2019 09:25:43:

… there can be a lot of difference between 'made' and 'assembled', with some creative use of the word 'made'!

.

… and that is essentially what I find 'interesting'

[ neither company admits 'assembled' ]

Comparing the two statements, it is difficult to see how both of them can be true.

.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by not done it yet on 16/01/2019 07:44:37:

In other words, does ‘manufactured’ mean ‘made’, or not?

.

As per my reply to David … both companies use the word 'made'

Although BoxFord adds emphasis with '… truly Made in Britain'

MichaelG.

[egaParticipant @ega]

My expensive walking boots claim to be "Engineered in Italy"; not readily visible on the back of the label it says "Assembled in Romania".

Fortunately, my feet can't read!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by ega on 16/01/2019 11:03:36:

My expensive walking boots claim to be "Engineered in Italy"; not readily visible on the back of the label it says "Assembled in Romania".

Fortunately, my feet can't read!

.

"Engineered" has long been a 'weasel word' in the marketing context.

But I think we have specific legislation to cover the use/misuse of "made"

… If I can find it, I will post something.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: This is the best I have found so far:

https://www.twobirds.com/en/news/articles/2014/global/european-parliament-votes-for-compulsory-made-in-labels

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/01/2019 12:10:55

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

In general terms the country of origin is the country in which the last substantial transformation took place. This is often a change of tariff classification (for example from materials to components), or else the country in which most value was added. This second one means that at a product may be made in Britain even if 75% of its value was from components made overseas as long as no other single country made a greater proportion of its value than the 25% added in Britain.

I remember an export shipment running into trouble because greenhouses were sent on two trucks, and instead of loading the imported glass with the British made frames (which would have made the entire product British as the frames accounted for over half the value) the glass was sent separately and mistakenly declared as British.

BTW, when it comes to British made manual lathes, what about Cowells? **LINK**

Brian

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by not done it yet on 16/01/2019 07:44:37:

Maybe it has something to do with:

Where castings are poured, where they are machined, where the machined parts are assembled or simply where new stickers were carefully placed on the otherwise finished product?

In other words, does ‘manufactured’ mean ‘made’, or not?

'Country of manufacture' has a legal definition as the country where the last substantive manufacturing process was carried out (attaching a sticker probably would not count, assembling individual parts probably would). So both Myford and Boxford are legally made in the UK. I very much doubt that any Boxford lathe solely contains parts made in the UK, for example, where do the fixings and electronic components come from?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Brian G on 16/01/2019 12:26:06:

In general terms the country of origin is the country in which the last substantial transformation took place.

[ … ]

BTW, when it comes to British made manual lathes, what about Cowells? **LINK**

.

Quite so, Brian … I am aware of the general terms regarding COO

… so I suppose what I find 'interesting' is BoxFord's claim to have

"The only manual lathe you can buy … "

Jason's back-handed remark notwithstanding: I am interested to know how it comes that neither Myford nor Cowells has successfully challenged this statement.

MichaelG.

.

[quote]

The only manual lathe you can buy which is still truly Made in Britain

[/quote]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/01/2019 13:09:29

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/01/2019 10:09:22:

Posted by David Standing 1 on 16/01/2019 09:25:43:

… there can be a lot of difference between 'made' and 'assembled', with some creative use of the word 'made'!

.

… and that is essentially what I find 'interesting'

[ neither company admits 'assembled' ]

Comparing the two statements, it is difficult to see how both of them can be true.

.

MichaelG.

Michael

And now we apparently have three companies claiming the same

I might pop out to the workshop later and ask for an official statement from my Boxford and two Myfords

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

As to challenging each others' assertions, I guess none of them have the stomach to get embroiled in a legal battle, with the attendant costs.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/01/2019 13:07:41:

…………………..I am interested to know how it comes that neither Myford nor Cowells has successfully challenged this statement.

 

May just be that it would cost either of the smaller companies too much to challenge Boxford. Also they are generally selling into two different markets so not worth it for probably less than one sale a year that could be lost or gained.

Probably better for Myford and Cowells to keep a low profile as if it went to court there may be questions asked about why they can sell with unprotected leadscrews when Boxford and far eastern imports have to comply and cover them up. It would certainly stop them being able to sell into Boxfords market.

Edited By JasonB on 16/01/2019 13:22:29

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Back on track, my geared head Boxford 330 will happily cut 26 tpi with just one change wheel substitution in the gear train.

I know I champion these at regular intervals, but the X10 series Boxfords (330, 280, 10.20, 11.30 etc) are very capable lathes, and can be bought in good condition secondhand for little money, if you keep your eyes open – certainly for a fraction of the new cost.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by JasonB on 16/01/2019 13:18:43:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/01/2019 13:07:41:

…………………..I am interested to know how it comes that neither Myford nor Cowells has successfully challenged this statement.

May just be that it would cost either of the smaller companies too much to challenge Boxford. Also they are generally selling into two different markets so not worth it for probably less than one sale a year that could be lost or gained.

Probably better for Myford and Cowells to keep a low profile as if it went to court there may be questions asked about why they can sell with unprotected leadscrews when Boxford and far eastern imports have to comply and cover them up. It would certainly stop them being able to sell into Boxfords market.

Edited By JasonB on 16/01/2019 13:22:29

Jason

You are probably aware that for many years Boxford have primarily focused on the education market, which is why safety compliance is very high on their list of priorities.

As a sad by product of this, it is why I managed to get my virtually unused 330 for peanuts – it came out of an education establishment that, like so many others, was closing its engineering department. My 330 had sat in the corner, unloved, until bought back by the service technician that had installed it a number of years earlier.

[egaParticipant @ega]

Michael Gilligan:

Thanks for the interesting Bird & Bird link with its reference to the footwear industry.

My light-hearted from-memory comment requires a small correction: the back of the boot label actually says "Made in Romania" (my italics). I think that in today's conditions what would weigh with me is a reliable indication that a reputable organization had verified the quality of the entire product wherever its components were made or assembled.

An example might be the Brompton folding bicycle whose frame is guaranteed for life. At one time production was outsourced to the Far East but was later brought back to the UK because of quality problems. However, I understand that the titanium front and rear forks of the lighter weight models are made abroad satisfactorily.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes David that was the two markets I was talking about, remember a new Boxford being set up at school though I mostly used the Harrisons.

It would Cost Myford more to bring their lathe upto spec for that market and go round selling them than it would be worth. Also looking at things like the projects section on Boxfords site very little is lathe orientated more CnC, 3D etc so I doubt lathe sales are now a big part of their market. I also wonder how many schools budgets allow them to buy British over imported.

Just to back up Neil's comment about electrical components its interesting to see the Vertex logo on the machine lamp of the blue connoisseur

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Given that 26 tpi, as per the op's need, is fairly common worldwide even in metric countries, it is a pretty poor show that it is not one of the standard threads the lathe designer/specifier listed as a mandatory feature. It shows how the manufacturers and procurement departments are totally divorced from any real life use of their product.

If there are lathes being built in this country I wonder if any of the staff are model engineers, member of ME clubs, subscribers, and readers of this forum. Having raised the question of the build location wouldn't it be nice if someone came on here this evening to say he has spent the day grinding lathe beds in the UK..
Apart from JS coming on here occasionally to say he made the collet blocks for Arc we never hear from UK manufacturers of anything. I haven't been able to report such myself for about 20 years and not even sourced UK built product for 15.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bazyle on 16/01/2019 14:37:22:

Given that 26 tpi, as per the op's need, is fairly common worldwide even in metric countries, it is a pretty poor show that it is not one of the standard threads the lathe designer/specifier listed as a mandatory feature. It shows how the manufacturers and procurement departments are totally divorced from any real life use of their product.

.

Well said

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The driving force behind imperial far eastern lathes is the US market where 26tpi is not common so little demand to have it on a lathe. European model engineers have been using 1.0mm pitch metric for years and all their fittings are sold in metric fine pitches so only the odd block around the world with an old British bike or old model engineer may want it.

Some of our machine tool suppliers don't even do imperial lathes and mills or are listing less in the way of imperial versions so you won't find 26tpi as standard on a metric machine.

Sounds like a good excuse for Neil to go out on a Jolley, I'm sure there would be interest in an article or three about visits to UK lathe makers to see these things being "made".

Edited By JasonB on 16/01/2019 14:56:48

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

I worked for a company who imported printing machines from USA as a kit and assembled them over here. There was a label attached which read Made in England when I once queried it I was told that the label was made in England

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

26tpi being rather close to M1.0 I reckon M1.0 would screw up to 10 or so turns into a 26tpi fitting before jamming. Might be 'good enough'?

A while ago I wrote a program to calculate gear combinations for the WM280 Imperial with the gear set [20, 25, 30, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 63, 70, 75, 80, 80]. Assuming I got the maths right (ahem), the closest the lathe can get is 26.25 or 2 x 13.09 tpi. I don't know if other gears have ever been available for the machine.

Interestingly, my Metric WM280 gets closer to 26tpi than the Imperial does. It has the set [ 20, 30, 45, 50, 60, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85 ]. Apart from M1.0, the metric machine can also do 13.03 and 25.99

Found this in a blog about Bicycle threads on the Park Tool Website:

The bicycle industry has a long history of using many different thread standards. Both factional and metric sizes are in use. Some threads are also used almost exclusively in the bicycle industry. Below is a table of some of the threads and their uses. This table is not intended to be complete and exhaustive. Always measure diameter and pitch when possible to determine threading.

Nominal Thread Size	Example of Bicycle Uses
2.2mm x 56 tpi	Common 2mm spoke threading
3mm x 0.5mm	Dropout adjustment screws, some derailleur hardware, accessory hardware
4mm x 0.7mm	Some derailleur limit screws (DIN standard)
4mm x 0.75mm	Common derailleur limit screw (JIS standard)
5mm x 0.8mm	Many uses on bicycles, including derailleur wire pinch bolts/nuts, disc rotor mounting bolts, fender and racks mounts, water bottle cage bolts, and others
6mm x 1mm	Many uses on bicycles, including brake caliper mounting bolts, brake pad bolts/nuts, some fender racks, some brake adjusting barrels
7mm x 1mm	Some handlebar binder bolts
5/16 inch x 24 tpi	Front hubs, solid axle, less expensive bikes
8mm x 1mm	Square-type crank bolts, front solid axle hubs, suspension system hardware
8mm x 1.25mm	Stem hardware, stud type crank nuts, suspension hardware
8mm x 0.75mm	Chainring bolt
9mm x 1mm	Front hubs, quick release, Asian manufacturer
9mm x 26 tpi	Front hubs, Campagnolo®
3/8 inch x 24 tpi	Some solid axle bike, including coaster brake
3/8 inch x 26 tpi	Solid rear axle
10mm x 1mm	Most quick release rear axles, derailleur mounting bolts, brake lever adjusting barrels
10mm x 26 tpi	Rear axle, quick release, Campganolo®
12mm x 1mm	Some spline crankset bolts
1/2 inch x 20 tpi	Pedal threads, one-piece cranks
9/16 inch x 20 tpi	Pedal threads- common three piece cranks
14mm x 1mm	Oversized frestyle axles
15mm x 1mm	Crank bolt, Octalink® and ISIS Drive®
1-inch x 24 tpi	Threaded headsets, one-inch standard
1-1/8 inch x 26 tpi	Thread headset, 1-1/8 inch standard
1-1/4 inch x 26 tpi	Thread headset, 1-1/4 inch standard
1.37 inch x 24 tpi	Bottom brackets, ISO/English/BSC, and threaded freewheel hubs
1-3/8 inch x 26 tpi	Bottom brackets, older “Raleigh” three speeds
36mm x 24 tpi	“Italian” threaded bottom brackets
47mm x 1mm	T47 threaded bottom brackets

From the variety in the table it seems that bike repairers need a metric lathe than can also do 24tpi, 26tpi and 56tpi. It's another shambles!

Dave

PS Sorry about the formatting!

Edited By

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Did not bother with a spread sheet for my Imperial 280 and got bang on 26tpi

40 spindle driving 65T

50T driving 80T

60T driving 75T on the gearbox input

Straight through position A

All supplied gears

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 16/01/2019 14:55:45:

The driving force behind imperial far eastern lathes is the US market where 26tpi is not common so little demand to have it on a lathe. European model engineers have been using 1.0mm pitch metric for years and all their fittings are sold in metric fine pitches so only the odd block around the world with an old British bike or old model engineer may want it.

.

Admittedly not 'current' but some may be interested to know that the original Leica camera screw thread was 26tpi although it is often referred to as 39 x 1mm

MichaelG.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by Bazyle on 16/01/2019 14:37:22:

Given that 26 tpi, as per the op's need, is fairly common worldwide even in metric countries, it is a pretty poor show that it is not one of the standard threads the lathe designer/specifier listed as a mandatory feature. It shows how the manufacturers and procurement departments are totally divorced from any real life use of their product.

If there are lathes being built in this country I wonder if any of the staff are model engineers, member of ME clubs, subscribers, and readers of this forum. Having raised the question of the build location wouldn't it be nice if someone came on here this evening to say he has spent the day grinding lathe beds in the UK..
Apart from JS coming on here occasionally to say he made the collet blocks for Arc we never hear from UK manufacturers of anything. I haven't been able to report such myself for about 20 years and not even sourced UK built product for 15.

As said above, my 'British made' Boxford 330 lists 26 tpi as a thread it will cut with just one change wheel substitution.

[David Standing 1Participant @davidstanding1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/01/2019 15:51:34:

Found this in a blog about Bicycle threads on the Park Tool Website:

The bicycle industry has a long history of using many different thread standards. Both factional and metric sizes are in use. Some threads are also used almost exclusively in the bicycle industry. Below is a table of some of the threads and their uses. This table is not intended to be complete and exhaustive. Always measure diameter and pitch when possible to determine threading.

Nominal Thread Size	Example of Bicycle Uses
2.2mm x 56 tpi	Common 2mm spoke threading
3mm x 0.5mm	Dropout adjustment screws, some derailleur hardware, accessory hardware
4mm x 0.7mm	Some derailleur limit screws (DIN standard)
4mm x 0.75mm	Common derailleur limit screw (JIS standard)
5mm x 0.8mm	Many uses on bicycles, including derailleur wire pinch bolts/nuts, disc rotor mounting bolts, fender and racks mounts, water bottle cage bolts, and others
6mm x 1mm	Many uses on bicycles, including brake caliper mounting bolts, brake pad bolts/nuts, some fender racks, some brake adjusting barrels
7mm x 1mm	Some handlebar binder bolts
5/16 inch x 24 tpi	Front hubs, solid axle, less expensive bikes
8mm x 1mm	Square-type crank bolts, front solid axle hubs, suspension system hardware
8mm x 1.25mm	Stem hardware, stud type crank nuts, suspension hardware
8mm x 0.75mm	Chainring bolt
9mm x 1mm	Front hubs, quick release, Asian manufacturer
9mm x 26 tpi	Front hubs, Campagnolo®
3/8 inch x 24 tpi	Some solid axle bike, including coaster brake
3/8 inch x 26 tpi	Solid rear axle
10mm x 1mm	Most quick release rear axles, derailleur mounting bolts, brake lever adjusting barrels
10mm x 26 tpi	Rear axle, quick release, Campganolo®
12mm x 1mm	Some spline crankset bolts
1/2 inch x 20 tpi	Pedal threads, one-piece cranks
9/16 inch x 20 tpi	Pedal threads- common three piece cranks
14mm x 1mm	Oversized frestyle axles
15mm x 1mm	Crank bolt, Octalink® and ISIS Drive®
1-inch x 24 tpi	Threaded headsets, one-inch standard
1-1/8 inch x 26 tpi	Thread headset, 1-1/8 inch standard
1-1/4 inch x 26 tpi	Thread headset, 1-1/4 inch standard
1.37 inch x 24 tpi	Bottom brackets, ISO/English/BSC, and threaded freewheel hubs
1-3/8 inch x 26 tpi	Bottom brackets, older “Raleigh” three speeds
36mm x 24 tpi	“Italian” threaded bottom brackets
47mm x 1mm	T47 threaded bottom brackets

From the variety in the table it seems that bike repairers need a metric lathe than can also do 24tpi, 26tpi and 56tpi. It's another shambles!

Dave

PS Sorry about the formatting!

Edited By

And time to feel smug – my metric Boxford 330 will do every single thread listed above, including 24, 26 and 56 tpi.

As a coincidence, I rebuild old steel framed pushbikes!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by JasonB on 16/01/2019 16:08:07:

Did not bother with a spread sheet for my Imperial 280 and got bang on 26tpi

40 spindle driving 65T

50T driving 80T

60T driving 75T on the gearbox input

Straight through position A

All supplied gears

If it's not too much trouble checking oily gears, what tooth counts have you got in your set please Jason?

I thought an Imperial 280 came with 20, 25, 30, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 63, 70, 75, and two 80s. You used a 65, which means either I made a mistake or the gears supplied with a 280 have changed. Could be another of my famous cock-ups – having a pair of 80s in the list is suspicious…

Ta,

Dave

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