I’m thinking of getting a medium-sized shaper. Convince me out of it.

[Andy Stopford]

On Andy Stopford Said:

There’s a jig borer in the classifieds.

Erf! …and it’s in the county where I used to live. Shame I’m now on the Continent, although if it’s still available next time I’m over…

Thanks for the heads-up.

 

Duff

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Duff – 

Make sure you’ve plenty of room in your car then, for if the jig-borer’s still here it has a moderately hefty Taylor-Hobson pantograph engraver for company, and yours as well for a modest consideration!

It’s dismantled but all here apart from needing a new belt. I really don’t have space for it, unfortunately.

 

Doesn’t our beloved hobby like to to sprawl across all the room available?

[Duff MachinistParticipant @duffmachinist36701]

Thanks Nigel. I’m sure it will be gone before my next trip to Poole, but if not, I will be contacting you. Yup, sprawl is a good term for a workshop in general.

All the best, Duff.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I also know where there is a shaper burried in someones garden as they could not interest anyone in having it so bring a spade as well.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

I’ve had 2 shapers – I love shapers – but both went to better homes. One was sold on, the other given away. If my hobby was focused on machine tools, I’d have a collection of them; but I try to be a builder, so the delightful sound and smell and sight of a shaper, as wonderful as it is, is replaced by a whirring sound and often ear protection. 😐

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

I also know where there is a shaper burried in someones garden as they could not interest anyone in having it so bring a spade as well.

I can only imagine what a detectorist would make of that and the expletives once they spent several hours uncovering it.

 

On Another JohnS Said:

I’ve had 2 shapers – I love shapers – but both went to better homes. One was sold on, the other given away. If my hobby was focused on machine tools, I’d have a collection of them; but I try to be a builder, so the delightful sound and smell and sight of a shaper, as wonderful as it is, is replaced by a whirring sound and often ear protection. 😐

Yes, this is the other thing that I’m wary of with mills – the noise.

…and a question to the forum in general, although slightly off tack, what small/medium sized mill has the the least noisy gear train (low and high rpms)? Machining noise excluded.

PS. I exclude electronic, belt run things such as a Wabeco, that are meant to run quietly. I have my reasons to avoid these, not least price.

 

Thanks, Duff.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

If you find a shaper in the workshop of anyone who is doing it for a living I’ll be most surprised. There are still a few slotters around, a sort of shaper stood on end, much easier to set a flywheel up for chopping a keyway.  However, if I had room I’d still have one, I’m not trying to earn my living and the noise is therapeutic. Jason’s feeds and speeds seemed very conservative to me, and as others have said, you can set it going and leave it to if if you have end of travel switches.

However I don’t have room, so don’t inundate me with offers. Planers were often converted to plano miller’s, I definitely don’t have room for one of those.

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

Jason’s feeds and speeds seemed very conservative to me,

Would any of the shaper owners care to give the sort of feeds, DOC, stroke rate and direction they would use for my example piece of steel 4″ x 2″ with 1/8″ to come off. I did use a stroke rate of around 2/3rd of a few shapers I looked at but my feed may have been a bit fine.

Unless Duncan thought my milling feeds were conservative, They were as I was using a feed crate for moulded cutters, If using the ones for non ferrous then I could feed at 450mm/min not 200mm/min. 18 IPM not 8IPM. Which gives this sort of finish

It’s the one on the right of a 50mm wide block of EN3

 

 

[Andrew CrowParticipant @andrewcrow91475]

On my rather old 10 inch shaper I would probably take two cuts, the first at 0.100 and 0.005 feed rate and a second cut of 0.025 with the same feed rate.

So about 8 minutes actual cutting time plus a bit for winding back and resetting tool depth.

I wouldn’t expect to get anywhere near the surface finish or speed that you can get with a modern milling machine and carbide insert tools. I only have a light vertical mill so removing large amounts of waste material takes time anyway.

But, for me time isn’t critical (even though at my age I’m running out of it pretty quickly) when I’m blocking up particularly on castings I just regard it as being a cheaper option on tooling and probably quicker for me in some cases.

I also find it rather therapeutic watching a shaper cutting of big curls of steel.

Andy

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Didn’t realise the hobby was about how quick you had to be in the workshop, just have fun with what youve got.

[bernard towers]

On bernard towers Said:

Didn’t realise the hobby was about how quick you had to be in the workshop, just have fun with what youve got.

Well speed was one of the points raised by the OP’s opening post in favour of a mill and he did ask to be talked out of a shaper.

As I said I’ve only used a shaper at school and the teacher set it up for one item, never saw it being used again in 5 years. So did not really know what rates a medium machine could work at.

Many say being able to walk away from it is an advantage, I’m more inclined to say it is a consequence of the rate it works at. If you want to walk away then why not get a CNC😊 and have that do far more work in the same space of time than you could do on a mill.

The cheap easily shaped tooling comments do not really cut it with me either, no different to grinding a HSS bit for a flycutter and using that on a mill.  Power feed and auto cut off and you can also walk away from the slow rate of metal removal the flycutter will also give. Also seems the way most engine heads and blocks are skimmed.

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

If you find a shaper in the workshop of anyone who is doing it for a living I’ll be most surprised.

Judging by the Youtube videos, they’re commonplace in Pakistan, likewise planers.

re. Speed – you can take much heavier cuts with a shaper than with the inserted tooth face mills (assuming roughly comparable motor power), and you can take a cut down the side of the workpiece (at whatever angle you like) at speeds and feeds which a benchtop mill really won’t care for, and get an excellent surface finish without the waves that using the side of an end mill generate.

At one time I only had a lathe, shaper and pillar drill. I often thought “I wish I had a mill”, now, with a lathe and mill only, I sometimes think “I wish I had a shaper”. I’d say, absolutely, go for a mill first, but don’t regard a shaper as an obsolete waste of space.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Although you may be able to take a heavier cut the actual metal removal rate in a time period is probably less, certainly is if you compare my figures with a lightweight benchtop machine to how long it would take Andrew. It is just smaller amounts per pass but more passes which still  total less time.

With the mills the OP is looking at tilting the work to do an angled face would not be an issue

This video says it is an Elliot “working Hard” I make that about 1 stroke every second, depth of 1mm looks about right but no way is he stepping over 0.5mm as the cut would have been 57mm wide in the length of the video, more like 0.1mm per stroke as he only covers about a 12mm width.

I could happily do a 1mm deep x 12mm wide cut 10″ long on the little SX2.7 in about 40 seconds. If I wanted to go wider then I could do 10″ x 2″ wide in the same time it has taken him to do 12mm wide. Tell me which is the heavier MMR.

The ones being used in India are likely all old machines that were moved on to the third world by companies that replaced them with better more productive machines

 

[Duff Machinist]

On Duff Machinist Said:

Yes, this is the other thing that I’m wary of with mills – the noise.

…and a question to the forum in general, although slightly off tack, what small/medium sized mill has the the least noisy gear train (low and high rpms)? Machining noise excluded.

PS. I exclude electronic, belt run things such as a Wabeco, that are meant to run quietly. I have my reasons to avoid these, not least price.

 

Thanks, Duff.

Warco have several belt drive mills.

[Andy Stopford]

On Andy Stopford Said:

On duncan webster 1 Said:

If you find a shaper in the workshop of anyone who is doing it for a living I’ll be most surprised.

… I’d say, absolutely, go for a mill first, but don’t regard a shaper as an obsolete waste of space.

I nearly agree with that!  The problem isn’t that shapers are obsolete, or useless – they’re very good at what they do.  The problem is that mills are more versatile, and, if you have one, most of the reasons for owning a shaper disappear in a puff of smoke.  Leaving behind a hefty rarely used machine taking up valuable space.

A shaper is only worth having if there is work for it.

Duff Machinist mentions two good reasons: engine blocks and deep thin grooves.  But I feel from reading his OP and subsequent comments that he knows his need for a shaper is borderline, and I don’t think we’ve done much to validate his desire to own one.  No matter, if he has the space, why not just go for it?  The worst that can happen is he ends up with a 400kg space-waster in his workshop.  Completely unacceptable in my workshop,  but Duff Machinist might have plenty of room and work for it.

Tools are “quite interesting”.  I buy tools to use them.  I’m not interested in brand-names, cultural identity, national pride, reliving my youth,  applying obsolete methods for their own sake, or owning an icon.   Others buy old tools to celebrate traditional ways and means or because they enjoy retro-technology.   Fine by me, unless their owners believe British Industry should revert to them and it’t important for youth to apply old-school methods.  Sadly not.  Time marches on; manufacturing is cut-throat competitive, leaving no room for anything but high-productivity methods.

Anyone else read Flann O’Brien?  Irish humorist, with philosophy.  In his novel “The Third Policeman”, a man falls in love with his bicycle.  People write papers on the book, as in this example, from the abstract:

O’Brien makes fun of the national vehicle and its users, playfully reminding us that cycling round and round is an ambiguous achievement. As a man-made device, the bicycle is also a direct application of mechanical science; thus the relationship between man and his machine comically reflects the mystery of creation, in a parody of the Great Clockmaker. 

People name their cars, old tools become objects of desire, and some Myford owners are incredibly sensitive to criticism!   Helps to have a sense of humour.  My first boss arriving to do National Service in the 1950s listened to a much bemedaled sergeant telling the tearful new recruits: “if you can’t take a joke, you shouldn’t have joined.”  They were, of course, all conscripts.

Model Engineering being a hobby, if you want something badly enough, why not?  No need to justify purchases, unless, of course there’s  a budget, and the money is better spent elsewhere…

🙂

Dave

 

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On Andy Stopford Said:

On duncan webster 1 Said:

If you find a shaper in the workshop of anyone who is doing it for a living I’ll be most surprised.

… I’d say, absolutely, go for a mill first, but don’t regard a shaper as an obsolete waste of space.

 

Anyone else read Flann O’Brien?  Irish humorist, with philosophy.  In his novel “The Third Policeman”, a man falls in love with his bicycle.

 

Unlike Flann O’Brien’s policeman, I really wouldn’t recommend swapping molecules with a shaper!

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I find it a bit of a shame that us model engineers with a manual only shop always seem to be shot down by Jason who seems to think that an all chinese cnc workshop is the only way to go, all us others are luddites. We all do different things on different machinery, there is room for all of us.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Really, I don’t have a fully CNC workshop most of what I do is on manual machines. Feeds talked about here are for a manual mill not a CNC, look at my Kelsey build for beginners do you see any CNC there? I could have made parts for that engine on the CNC but I used files and a vertical slide etc for what could have been on a CNC.

[Duff MachinistParticipant @duffmachinist36701]

I think Dave gets me quite well, and has the same thinking.

My need for that shaper is borderline, and even the engineering books of the very early part of the 20th century were saying the same, as milling machines were already beginning to replace them back then. Part of the interest (intellectual rather than emotional) in one is that I don’t like to see well designed and well made machines being lost to history or the scrappy, but I would want to use it rather than have it as a museum piece. I’ll leave the static displays to the actual museums. I appreciate the design and function and their development as part of engineering history, so having a live working “dinosaur”, albeit still well adapted for the jobs it was designed to do, is not a bad thing for me personally; the mileage of other people does vary of course. …and yes, if one has the space (which I do), and they’re cheap, why not.

Nonetheless, a mill will take priority over a shaper, and for the latter, I’ll have the luxury of waiting for a good one to pop up. There are a few good German and French makes available over here, distance allowing.

By the way, I did ask the question what the least noisy mill was. I think this should be asked in a separate post, so will put some thought to that – “advantages and disadvantages of an electric, belt run thingy to a top-end, gear run thingy”, but I’ll search the forum first 😉

 

Cheers, Duff.

 

[IanTParticipant @iant]

“People name their cars…”

That’s because I love my Juilie Dave and when I drive her, she loves me back!  🙂

 

IanT

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

I just want to point out that Stefan Gotteswinter has a shaper. If it’s good enough for him it’s good enough for us 🙂

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

But he does also have at least 1 mill, would he be able to do all that he does so easily without a mill?

[Duff Machinist]

On 2 December 2025 at 03:10 Duff Machinist Said:

though I’m not sure its ability to do spiral thingies is possible ;-).

It all depends how much effort you’re prepared to put into it. I spent 3 months building an attachment for my Elliott 10M to enable me to cut firstly straight tooth involute gears, and with a bit more work I adapted it to cut helical tooth involute gears, using a simple trapezoidally ground toolbit. Essentially I’d reinvented the wheel as gear shapers were a thing. Mine’s very light by comparison.

After a while I figured it was worth sharing with the world so I started a youtube channel and did a 5 part series detailing every aspect of it. If you’re interested, search for “The Potting Shed Workshop” on youtube.

Rob

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

If you want a machine that you can set up and leave to get on with the job then surely these days a CNC mill is the best way to go.  A shaper will be another boat anchor for one’s dependants to try to dispose of (probably pay for) when one is promoted to the great workshop in the sky, whereas a CNC mill is more likely to find a buyer.

[RobCox]

On RobCox Said:

After a while I figured it was worth sharing with the world so I started a youtube channel and did a 5 part series detailing every aspect of it. If you’re interested, search for “The Potting Shed Workshop” on youtube.

Rob

Weirdly enough (very weirdly), I came across your videos the day before you posted your message. Maybe we’re being spied on by the Youtube algorithm. Anyway, am slowly going through them. Thanks Rob.

[Author]

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