Attempting To Make My (new to me) Zyto Beautiful

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dave Halford on 18/07/2020 13:13:41:

Well, you've moved all the weight really high up, made the base really narrow and put tiny wheels on it.

…

I agree – it's an accident waiting to happen.

Not knocking Dibnah's sterling efforts just for sport, it's just that the forum knows lathes are notoriously top heavy. Much inclined to capsize and frequently bolted down for safety reasons. I reckon I could topple my lathe by pushing hard backwards and it doesn't have a heavy motor high in the air making it extra unstable.

The great Fred Dibnah (any relation?) made a good living out of toppling. Chimneys weighing thousands of tons that had weathered storm and tempest for a century brought down by Fred after a few hours work. All he had to do was upset the balance a little, which would be easy to do to this poor old Zyto widow-maker. The hard part of Fred's job was making the chimney fall in the right direction, and I've seen one film clip were he had to run for it!

Is it possible to hang the motor underneath the lathe? Dropping the centre of gravity beneath the bed by moving the motor would stabilise the set-up. Otherwise bolt it to the wall or fit outriggers.

Dave

[john halfpennyParticipant @johnhalfpenny52803]

At least link rhe bottom of the leg frames, and put in a diagonal to stop lozenging. No much work, but a big increase in lateral rigidity. The toppling risk is not insignificant.

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

Posted by Dave Halford on 18/07/2020 13:13:41:

Well, you've moved all the weight really high up, made the base really narrow and put tiny wheels on it.

I would suggest that you never move it like that, running those wheels into any dip like the joints on those bricks in the floor will likely trip it up. You should at least be using the size of wheels from that mobile screen you have in the last photo.

I've got a cheap Halfords tool chest with that size of wheel and it gets stuck on anything.

I appreciate the concerns chaps but from here on in you really don't need to raise that issue. I should have said the feedback I am looking for is more to do with particular knowledge about perhaps the belts run better off to the side or don't place motor on side etc etc or whatever little lathe nuance you are aware of. The shape, rigidity, stability type issues of the base are all fine. The size of the wheels are absolutely fine for the surface they are intended for, they cope with the friction for that surface fine and individually rated for 75Kg. Incidentally even those larger castors on my mobile gantry aren't designed for going off road just like the castors on your tool chest, at the single point of contact they rely on a fairly frictionless surface which means even trying to steamroll an m3 nut can draw a halt to rotation. I stress they are only for moving the lathe a short distance from it's storage place and I have said it will be stabilised with Jacks for use (they maybe not too clear in pics but are on there and the final construction will involve longitudinal mechanical connection, so no issue with leveraged rotational or indeed any other forces. I'm confident as I deal with that kind of stuff in working life and maybe I should have been clear about that to avoid this repetition. I promise if I ever get egg on my face and it topples I will post the picture of the plaster cast !

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 18/07/2020 15:09:10:

Posted by Dave Halford on 18/07/2020 13:13:41:

Well, you've moved all the weight really high up, made the base really narrow and put tiny wheels on it.

…

I agree – it's an accident waiting to happen.

Not knocking Dibnah's sterling efforts just for sport, it's just that the forum knows lathes are notoriously top heavy. Much inclined to capsize and frequently bolted down for safety reasons. I reckon I could topple my lathe by pushing hard backwards and it doesn't have a heavy motor high in the air making it extra unstable.

The great Fred Dibnah (any relation?) made a good living out of toppling. Chimneys weighing thousands of tons that had weathered storm and tempest for a century brought down by Fred after a few hours work. All he had to do was upset the balance a little, which would be easy to do to this poor old Zyto widow-maker. The hard part of Fred's job was making the chimney fall in the right direction, and I've seen one film clip were he had to run for it!

Is it possible to hang the motor underneath the lathe? Dropping the centre of gravity beneath the bed by moving the motor would stabilise the set-up. Otherwise bolt it to the wall or fit outriggers.

Dave

Thanks Dave I have addressed stability etc in prior post. I did consider initially placing motor below but as I want to keep the footprint small I would have had to cut away part of tray in order to keep counter shaft in close proximity. No relation but Fred was a legend, I just had that nick name for years. One issue I have run into is depending on type of belt used it is very tight between belt and the rear of the right hand side back gear (When engaged), do you think it would be an issue to run 20thou off the shoulder of that gear ? Just to give a tad more clearance. Another thing I was thinking about is if there is any losses due to the angle of the belts ?

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Dibnah on 18/07/2020 18:14:46:

Posted by Dave Halford on 18/07/2020 13:13:41:

Well, you've moved all the weight really high up, made the base really narrow and put tiny wheels on it.

I would suggest that you never move it like that, running those wheels into any dip like the joints on those bricks in the floor will likely trip it up. You should at least be using the size of wheels from that mobile screen you have in the last photo.

I've got a cheap Halfords tool chest with that size of wheel and it gets stuck on anything.

I appreciate the concerns chaps but from here on in you really don't need to raise that issue. I should have said the feedback I am looking for is more to do with particular knowledge about perhaps the belts run better off to the side or don't place motor on side etc etc or whatever little lathe nuance you are aware of. The shape, rigidity, stability type issues of the base are all fine. The size of the wheels are absolutely fine for the surface they are intended for, they cope with the friction for that surface fine and individually rated for 75Kg. Incidentally even those larger castors on my mobile gantry aren't designed for going off road just like the castors on your tool chest, at the single point of contact they rely on a fairly frictionless surface which means even trying to steamroll an m3 nut can draw a halt to rotation. I stress they are only for moving the lathe a short distance from it's storage place and I have said it will be stabilised with Jacks for use (they maybe not too clear in pics but are on there and the final construction will involve longitudinal mechanical connection, so no issue with leveraged rotational or indeed any other forces. I'm confident as I deal with that kind of stuff in working life and maybe I should have been clear about that to avoid this repetition. I promise if I ever get egg on my face and it topples I will post the picture of the plaster cast !

I wont see it if you do

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

Posted by Dave Halford on 18/07/2020 19:45:25:

Posted by Dibnah on 18/07/2020 18:14:46:

Posted by Dave Halford on 18/07/2020 13:13:41:

Well, you've moved all the weight really high up, made the base really narrow and put tiny wheels on it.

I would suggest that you never move it like that, running those wheels into any dip like the joints on those bricks in the floor will likely trip it up. You should at least be using the size of wheels from that mobile screen you have in the last photo.

I've got a cheap Halfords tool chest with that size of wheel and it gets stuck on anything.

I appreciate the concerns chaps but from here on in you really don't need to raise that issue. I should have said the feedback I am looking for is more to do with particular knowledge about perhaps the belts run better off to the side or don't place motor on side etc etc or whatever little lathe nuance you are aware of. The shape, rigidity, stability type issues of the base are all fine. The size of the wheels are absolutely fine for the surface they are intended for, they cope with the friction for that surface fine and individually rated for 75Kg. Incidentally even those larger castors on my mobile gantry aren't designed for going off road just like the castors on your tool chest, at the single point of contact they rely on a fairly frictionless surface which means even trying to steamroll an m3 nut can draw a halt to rotation. I stress they are only for moving the lathe a short distance from it's storage place and I have said it will be stabilised with Jacks for use (they maybe not too clear in pics but are on there and the final construction will involve longitudinal mechanical connection, so no issue with leveraged rotational or indeed any other forces. I'm confident as I deal with that kind of stuff in working life and maybe I should have been clear about that to avoid this repetition. I promise if I ever get egg on my face and it topples I will post the picture of the plaster cast !

I wont see it if you do

Ok no probs Dave, like I said I do appreciate the concerns but you are wrong. I'm happy to learn from you guys about lathe specifics but the other stuff I really do know about and didn't wish to be rude in my responses.

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

@SillyOldDuffer. Re: my last reply to you…..

"do you think it would be an issue to run 20/40 thou off the shoulder of that gear ? Just to give a tad more clearance."

My thinking is a miss is as good as a mile but I don't know if that applies to drive belts ? I believe the Poly V belt is 3.5mm thick. should be approx 0.8mm of clearance. A touch off the shoulder would improve that a tad but I really don't know how snug these belts get and what the tolerances are when they are in tension and whizzing round at speed.

[Perko7Participant @perko7]

From my experience with flat leather belts, they do flap a bit at speed but rubbing on a smooth surface like the shoulder of the back gear would not cause any problem. Mine will sometimes rub on the end of a piece of steel angle forming the motor mount, other than polishing the end of the angle no harm has resulted to the belt.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Is mounting the lathe on a moveable stand a good idea? I hate to think what dragging it along a less than perfectly flat and smooth floor will do to the machines alignment, especially a relatively lightweight machine like the Zyto.

John

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Dibnah on 18/07/2020 21:09:32:

…

@SillyOldDuffer. Re: my last reply to you…..

"do you think it would be an issue to run 20/40 thou off the shoulder of that gear ? Just to give a tad more clearance."

My thinking is a miss is as good as a mile but I don't know if that applies to drive belts ? I believe the Poly V belt is 3.5mm thick. should be approx 0.8mm of clearance. A touch off the shoulder would improve that a tad but I really don't know how snug these belts get and what the tolerances are when they are in tension and whizzing round at speed.

The answer is I don't know – I've no experience of how far belts come out but see Perko7's encouraging comment about flat belts. I'd expect V belts to be less inclined to flap but flap may be more a matter of adjustment – loose belts flap much more than tight ones. Important not to over-tension belts though because it puts a lot of side strain on the bearings. Rule of thumb, about 10mm / 1/2" stretch when pulled with a finger in the middle of the longest span. From your drawing, the gear shoulder is close to the lower pulley, where the belt is pulled close anyway.

I wouldn't expect skimming a little metal off a gear shoulder to do any harm, but it might not help much. It's uncomfortably close whatever. Maybe try it to see if the belt rubs? A miss really is as good as a mile.

Otherwise, is there room for a jockey wheel? Something like:

As well as guiding the belt, jockeys are often a convenient way of adjusting tension. Rather than moving the motor, adjust the jockey.

Dave

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

Posted by Perko7 on 19/07/2020 04:22:19:

From my experience with flat leather belts, they do flap a bit at speed but rubbing on a smooth surface like the shoulder of the back gear would not cause any problem. Mine will sometimes rub on the end of a piece of steel angle forming the motor mount, other than polishing the end of the angle no harm has resulted to the belt.

Ok thanks for that info Perko I think will give it a shot and see how it goes first.

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

Posted by John MC on 19/07/2020 08:48:01:

Is mounting the lathe on a moveable stand a good idea? I hate to think what dragging it along a less than perfectly flat and smooth floor will do to the machines alignment, especially a relatively lightweight machine like the Zyto.

John

Good point John and honestly I don't know if the moving in and out of position will affect the Lathe setup. I will have to cross that bridge later. If I do experience alignment issue I may have to relocate other things and leave it permanently on its jacks. Thanks

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/07/2020 10:13:37:

Posted by Dibnah on 18/07/2020 21:09:32:

…

@SillyOldDuffer. Re: my last reply to you…..

"do you think it would be an issue to run 20/40 thou off the shoulder of that gear ? Just to give a tad more clearance."

My thinking is a miss is as good as a mile but I don't know if that applies to drive belts ? I believe the Poly V belt is 3.5mm thick. should be approx 0.8mm of clearance. A touch off the shoulder would improve that a tad but I really don't know how snug these belts get and what the tolerances are when they are in tension and whizzing round at speed.

The answer is I don't know – I've no experience of how far belts come out but see Perko7's encouraging comment about flat belts. I'd expect V belts to be less inclined to flap but flap may be more a matter of adjustment – loose belts flap much more than tight ones. Important not to over-tension belts though because it puts a lot of side strain on the bearings. Rule of thumb, about 10mm / 1/2" stretch when pulled with a finger in the middle of the longest span. From your drawing, the gear shoulder is close to the lower pulley, where the belt is pulled close anyway.

I wouldn't expect skimming a little metal off a gear shoulder to do any harm, but it might not help much. It's uncomfortably close whatever. Maybe try it to see if the belt rubs? A miss really is as good as a mile.

Otherwise, is there room for a jockey wheel? Something like:

As well as guiding the belt, jockeys are often a convenient way of adjusting tension. Rather than moving the motor, adjust the jockey.

Dave

Great suggestion Dave the jockey wheel may be easier to achieve than my initial plan for tensioning. And the rule of thumb info is really useful to know As per your suggestion and Perko I will give it a run and observe before I decide to take a slither off the shoulder.

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

Managed to tack the motor & countershaft mount together this evening.

Motor and C.S. bolted to angle iron which uses a piece of box section as a guide, the angle has couple of keepers snug on the rear and raises and lowers for tension by that stud on the top of the mount, through a captive nut. The box section is bolted to a piece of slotted angle shown in earlier pics. Haven't got any belts on but spun the motor up and as yet no out of control vibration. I am trying an idea I had for a flat belt and will reveal shortly what it is, just glued it up and will give it a whirl tomorrow hopefully. Success or failure I will report here. This stuff is so cheap if it is ok I don't mind cutting it off to strip everything down for final weld and paint.

Have edited out backgound junk in the hope it easier to see.

Edited By Dibnah on 22/07/2020 22:07:56

Edited By Dibnah on 22/07/2020 22:09:15

Edited By Dibnah on 22/07/2020 22:11:21

[DibnahParticipant @dibnah]

I used pallet banding for a flat belt. It hasn't really had a load test as in cutting chips but it has held and spun under tension with no slip or sign of parting company up to now. It's that uncontrollable stuff you get around heavy parcels etc too. I think it is polypropylene maybe ? I have some on a drum so thought I would experiment with it.

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