£1000 to make a Spitfire aircraft fuel tank gauge. Can it be done cheaper?

£1000 to make a Spitfire aircraft fuel tank gauge. Can it be done cheaper?

Home Forums The Tea Room £1000 to make a Spitfire aircraft fuel tank gauge. Can it be done cheaper?

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  • #501032
    Simon Robinson 4
    Participant
      @simonrobinson4

      Just started watching Spitfire factory on channel 4. I saw that making your own Spitfire fuel tank gauge system would cost around £1000. The part looks relatively simple. With the right machines etc could it be done cheaper and would this part have to be made of aviation grade aluminium?

      #36111
      Simon Robinson 4
      Participant
        @simonrobinson4
        #501035
        Stuart Bridger
        Participant
          @stuartbridger82290

          Most of the cost will be tied up in paperwork. Both getting approval for the replacement design with substitute materials for those no longer available and traceability documents for the new parts. A fuel gauge will be very much a safety critical part, so subject to the most stringent regulation.

          #501039
          Nick Wheeler
          Participant
            @nickwheeler

            What do you think 'aircraft grade aluminium' is??

            #501042
            Stuart Bridger
            Participant
              @stuartbridger82290
              Posted by Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 12/10/2020 20:27:05:

              What do you think 'aircraft grade aluminium' is??

              A much abused term!

              Aircraft grade alloys will meet certain specifications and have traceability documentation verifying origin, conformance and batch.

              #501043
              Baz
              Participant
                @baz89810

                I think around £1000 is a bargain price, as Stuart says most of the cost is in paperwork as an example a certificate of conformity for a piece of metal will add about £30 to the bill, you may need a couple of springs, about £1.50 each plus again £30 for c of c, it doesn’t take long to run up a fair old bill. Problem is it’s £30 for two springs or two thousand springs, same for a bar of brass, one length or fifty lengths from the same batch, the price is the same.

                #501044
                Jon Lawes
                Participant
                  @jonlawes51698

                  We used to mark up our own gauges at Boscombe Down for the Flight Test Instrumentation installs. Lots of matt black paint, lettraset and swearing. As mentioned, it will be the paperwork that generates the pennies.

                  #501045
                  Martin Kyte
                  Participant
                    @martinkyte99762

                    Cambridge just paid 2.5 million for a roundabout so £1000 for a spit fuel gauge is nothing. There was nothing wrong with the old one either

                    regards Martin

                    #501057
                    Brian H
                    Participant
                      @brianh50089

                      Making parts for old aircraft is not easy, especially if they need to be covered by a CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) airworthiness certificate.

                      The design has to be as per the original, the materials have to conform to the original specification; 'better' materials cannot be used. All materials need to be certified and provided with approved certificates of conformity traceable through all stages of manufacture etc etc.

                      Cheap it is not.

                      Brian

                      #501062
                      John Haine
                      Participant
                        @johnhaine32865

                        As the saying goes, if you think safety is expensive, you should try having an accident.

                        #501071
                        Jeff Dayman
                        Participant
                          @jeffdayman43397

                          Here's another way to think about it – which scenario would you rather be in?

                          You are a pilot flying a precious and priceless Spitfire in 2020 on a long flight. You are close to the destination, and you suspect you are probably getting low on fuel from your knowledge of flight time elapsed and the usual fuel consumption per hour. There are no closer alternate fields to land on. Headwinds are increasing so your consumption rate is rising. You know it will be a close thing to get onto the field. It is VERY important to know exactly how much fuel you have. Your survival and the aircraft's survival depend on knowing the fuel status.

                          Scenario 1: someone fitted a 10 UK pound fuel gauge to the aircraft, with minimal reliability engineering and a quick works / does not work QC check. Mean time before failure is not specified. Service life / replacement at X hours is not specified. Some automotive components were used, to keep costs low. Only key components are traceable back to raw materials, but many components are not traceable.

                          Scenario 2: someone fitted a 1000 UK pound fuel gauge to the aircraft, with well designed components intended for aircraft use, and the whole system thoroughly tested for reliability and quality control. The components come with a manufacturer's service and inspection plan to ensure the unit works and keeps working safely for its' service life, which is also specified. Every component is fully traceable back to raw materials. Hundreds of people have inspected and signed off on every stage of the unit's design and construction and testing.

                          A no brainer, really.

                          Edited By Jeff Dayman on 13/10/2020 02:09:12

                          #501072
                          Another JohnS
                          Participant
                            @anotherjohns

                            Way back when, a colleague and family was flying in a 767 that had fuel gauge issues, and glided into Gimli Manitoba. They got on at the stop in Ottawa, and were flying out to see parents, etc.

                            It had zero working gauges (allowed at the time) and the tanks were not properly dip-sticked.

                            So, maybe a known-accurate fuel gauge, with the associated cost, on a priceless aircraft makes sense, despite the initial "wait a sec- I could give them a bargain and make 2 for that price" thought!

                            #501079
                            Ady1
                            Participant
                              @ady1

                              If you fit a 1000 quid part and the plane crashes it costs a million quid and the government clergy get 900 quid

                              If you fit a 10 quid part and the plane crashes it costs a million quid and the government clergy get nowt

                              Which system do you think the government clergy will prefer in a plane?

                              Free welfare for life is a powerful incentive

                              #501083
                              Sam Longley 1
                              Participant
                                @samlongley1
                                Posted by Jeff Dayman on 13/10/2020 02:08:40:

                                Here's another way to think about it – which scenario would you rather be in?

                                You are a pilot flying a precious and priceless Spitfire in 2020 on a long flight. You are close to the destination, and you suspect you are probably getting low on fuel from your knowledge of flight time elapsed and the usual fuel consumption per hour. There are no closer alternate fields to land on. Headwinds are increasing so your consumption rate is rising. You know it will be a close thing to get onto the field. It is VERY important to know exactly how much fuel you have. Your survival and the aircraft's survival depend on knowing the fuel status.

                                Scenario 1: someone fitted a 10 UK pound fuel gauge to the aircraft, with minimal reliability engineering and a quick works / does not work QC check. Mean time before failure is not specified. Service life / replacement at X hours is not specified. Some automotive components were used, to keep costs low. Only key components are traceable back to raw materials, but many components are not traceable.

                                Scenario 2: someone fitted a 1000 UK pound fuel gauge to the aircraft, with well designed components intended for aircraft use, and the whole system thoroughly tested for reliability and quality control. The components come with a manufacturer's service and inspection plan to ensure the unit works and keeps working safely for its' service life, which is also specified. Every component is fully traceable back to raw materials. Hundreds of people have inspected and signed off on every stage of the unit's design and construction and testing.

                                A no brainer, really.

                                If you had not got enough fuel would it have made any difference ? Knowing that you have just run out of fuel ain't going to make life any better.  You would have still not made it to the airfield & you admit there is no alternative airfield.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 13/10/2020 09:00:44

                                #501086
                                John Haine
                                Participant
                                  @johnhaine32865

                                  Safety costs. Speaking as a passenger I don't begrudge it. It's only through an unrelenting focus on quality than air travel is as cheap and safe as it is.

                                  #501088
                                  SillyOldDuffer
                                  Moderator
                                    @sillyoldduffer
                                    Posted by Sam Longley 1 on 13/10/2020 08:49:41:

                                    Posted by Jeff Dayman on 13/10/2020 02:08:40:…

                                    If you had not got enough fuel would it have made any difference ? Knowing that you have just run out of fuel ain't going to make life any better. You would have still not made it to the airfield & you admit there is no alternative airfield.

                                    Good point, except it ignores when the pilot gets to know he has a fuel problem. A reliable fuel gauge gives plenty of early warning so the pilot has more time to think. A dicky gauge is more likely to spring a crisis on the pilot. As most air accidents are caused by pilots getting it wrong, especially when confused by conflicting instrument readings, it's safer to fit gauges that work.

                                    Dave

                                    #501097
                                    David Jupp
                                    Participant
                                      @davidjupp51506

                                      Apart from the quality/certification costs mentioned above, there's also the simple fact that producing a one off or in very small numbers tends to result in very high unit cost.

                                      #501099
                                      Brian H
                                      Participant
                                        @brianh50089

                                        I would have thought that second hand gauges would be available. Still need testing and certifying but a lot cheaper than making one.

                                        Brian

                                        #501103
                                        Bo’sun
                                        Participant
                                          @bosun58570
                                          Posted by Brian H on 13/10/2020 10:08:36:

                                          I would have thought that second hand gauges would be available. Still need testing and certifying but a lot cheaper than making one.

                                          Brian

                                          Looking at the amount of spare parts that guy has, you would think so wouldn't you?

                                          #501106
                                          martin perman 1
                                          Participant
                                            @martinperman1

                                            Even though he might have a second hand one it would still be stripped and parts checked/replaced and then tested for reliability, finally it would also need to be certified.

                                            I spent several years as a volunteer at Duxford working on the Museums then Mary Alice B17G, we were restoring her to a static exhibit but were still required to maintain the work exactly as if she was to fly again, with exception of the engines everything else worked.

                                            Martin P

                                            #501107
                                            Buffer
                                            Participant
                                              @buffer

                                              Relying on fuel gauges in a light aircraft is a mugs game anyway. You check what's in there by looking in the wing. You know what you have when you start and you know what your burning. Then you know how long you have left. They're handy to tell you if its leaking out and thats normally about all.

                                              #501115
                                              Mick B1
                                              Participant
                                                @mickb1
                                                Posted by Brian H on 12/10/2020 22:26:46:

                                                Making parts for old aircraft is not easy, especially if they need to be covered by a CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) airworthiness certificate.

                                                The design has to be as per the original, the materials have to conform to the original specification; 'better' materials cannot be used. All materials need to be certified and provided with approved certificates of conformity traceable through all stages of manufacture etc etc.

                                                Cheap it is not.

                                                Brian

                                                All the comments about reliability of air-safety-critical parts and assemblies are valid, but that doesn't stop designers heading off on goose-chases when confronted with a requirement for old aircraft parts.

                                                I was working for an aircraft component company when the Nimrod project was delayed and the Shackletons had to serve for another couple of years. We were trying to quote for a depth-charge dropping sequencer, originally made for Wellington bombers – the GA had been going through approval while the Bismarck was loose in the Atlantic, and it was one of the only 2 *actual blueprints* I've ever seen. A bloke I knew in the DO had a detail drawing of one of the contact pads in front of him and was laboriously going through specs for various materials, trying to decide which was closest to the original.

                                                All it said in the material box on the drawing was BRASS…

                                                frown

                                                #501209
                                                Nick Clarke 3
                                                Participant
                                                  @nickclarke3

                                                  As a matter of interest, are there any old timer pilots here who would be able to comment on the reliability of original spec gauges?

                                                  I worry that all of this checking and materials testing will only produce a gauge that was inaccurate and/or unreliable in the first place!

                                                  #501212
                                                  Brian H
                                                  Participant
                                                    @brianh50089

                                                    I have been involved in work on a few historic aircraft but one of the most bizarre was a military aircraft namely the Canberra.

                                                    The company I worked for did a lot of work on service aircraft and we were asked to make a new throttle box for one of the PR Canberra's that were then in service. Most of the work was quite straightforward, until, that is, the provision of the rubber covering for the throttle levers.

                                                    These had been made by Raleigh in Nottingham and were the handlebar covers for a children's bicycle made in 1946 or thereabouts. Needless to say, they didn't have any spares!

                                                    I'm not sure how we worked around that one, probably by 'phoning every bike shop and restorer until we found some that were useable.

                                                    Brian

                                                    #501216
                                                    Robert Atkinson 2
                                                    Participant
                                                      @robertatkinson2

                                                      #andhow much do you think a modern fuel gauge costs? How about $250 for a non approved one?
                                                      https://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/in/fuelinstrumentation_fuelgauges/belite10-06068.php
                                                      You would be lucky to get any approved (TSO'ed or OEM) gauge for £1000.
                                                      I've desigined and built fuel gauging systems for three aircraft, one turbo-prop, one jet and an airship. These did not use any "aircraft grade" materials. The turboprop was the NAC Fieldmaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAC_Fieldmaster. This was a resistive system with Lucas commercial vehicle float type transmitters, electronics box and a commercial Anders 270 deg meter with custom scale. As a design authority you can use anything that meets the requirements, it does not have to be "aerospace grade". Biggest problem I had with that system was convincing Desmond Norman thatt a diecast aluminium box was OK. The was used to diecast meaning Mazac or pot metal. The electroics boxes a aluminium alloy. I know of another certified aircraft that used a Sodastream CO2 cylinder for the emergency undercarriage power source.
                                                      Last custom fuel gauge I specified cost 5 figures. That was just the gauge, not the tank probes or electronics box.

                                                      Robert G8RPI.

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