2-4-6 block woes

2-4-6 block woes

Home Forums Manual machine tools 2-4-6 block woes

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  • #436382
    old mart
    Participant
      @oldmart

      We are close to finishing the Tom Senior light vertical at the museum. There is a bit of play in the X axis which requires attention, and the Y and Z aren't great. I have been conducting tests on the spindle which runs better than expected, and is now trammed square and is also square in the fore and aft axis.

      Problems started when I started checking the Z axis moving the knee up and down. A dti was fixed to the column and one of the 2-4-6 blocks was clamped square to the bed Xaxis. The knee was sloping by about 0.010" in the 6" of the block.

      It turned out that the pair of 2-4-6 blocks are not dead square. They both are three dimensional parallograms. They not only lean sideways, but fore and aft also. What clinched it was putting the long MT2 test bar in an R8 holder in the spindle. Including the taper, it is 11" long. and I have it running 0.0002" tir at the top and 0.001" tir at the bottom. When I set the blocks against the test bar it was obvious that there was a problem with the blocks.

      On the surface table, the lean is easy to see with my square and even more obvious when toe bottoms of the blocks touch and there is 0.020" gap at the tops.

      I also have some of the cheap 1-2-3 and 1-2-4 blocks (metric), surprisingly, they are actually dead square.

      If I was still working, I could have got the blocks trued up by the grinders or the toolmakers in a jiffy.

      #13691
      old mart
      Participant
        @oldmart
        #436388
        Paul Lousick
        Participant
          @paullousick59116

          If you do not have an accurate square and have access to a lathe, you could make a cylindrical square

          Paul

          #436399
          not done it yet
          Participant
            @notdoneityet

            You could certainly have them trued up to be square. But would they still be 2-4-6? I somehow doubt it.smiley

            #436433
            old mart
            Participant
              @oldmart

              I don't care what size they are, I can easily measure them if I need to. Making a cylinder square is only worthwhile if you start with ground stock.

              #436437
              Tony Pratt 1
              Participant
                @tonypratt1
                Posted by old mart on 08/11/2019 13:31:55:

                I don't care what size they are, I can easily measure them if I need to. Making a cylinder square is only worthwhile if you start with ground stock.

                Pray tell where you get that little nugget from?

                Tony

                #436452
                old mart
                Participant
                  @oldmart

                  If I had a cylinder square, I would expect it to be within 0.0001" in 8" of height on the diameter, and have a perfect finish, something I could not achieve by turning.

                  #436454
                  Tony Pratt 1
                  Participant
                    @tonypratt1

                    Nothing is perfect as in finish but turning can make something good enough for your purpose.

                    Tony

                    #436467
                    Howard Lewis
                    Participant
                      @howardlewis46836

                      A Gudgeon Pin from a large engine, (8 to 16 litre diesel ) will probably make a good cylindrical square.

                      Try your local truck repairer, they may well have a reasonable one from a scrap engine.

                      Howard

                      #436471
                      Nicholas Farr
                      Participant
                        @nicholasfarr14254
                        Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/11/2019 18:30:40:

                        A Gudgeon Pin from a large engine, (8 to 16 litre diesel ) will probably make a good cylindrical square.

                        Try your local truck repairer, they may well have a reasonable one from a scrap engine.

                        Howard

                        Hi, Wot!. Whoever would have thought of such an idea.surprise

                        gudgeon pins.jpg

                        I've only had these about 20 years plus a few more slightly smaller.

                        Regards Nick.

                        #436472
                        Nicholas Farr
                        Participant
                          @nicholasfarr14254
                          Posted by not done it yet on 08/11/2019 01:08:23:

                          You could certainly have them trued up to be square. But would they still be 2-4-6? I somehow doubt it.smiley

                          Hi, Old Mart could possibly get several true 2-4-6 blocks with them, with a bit of precision cutting and grinding, i.e. 2mm-4mm-6mm wink 2

                          Probably won't be much use or what he needs.

                          Regards Nick.

                          #436592
                          old mart
                          Participant
                            @oldmart

                            There might be a chance for them to be trued up, as Chris, another volunteer at the museum is going to have a word with a friend of his who uses a large surface grinder at work.

                            Amongst the stuff I have is an Elliot shaper table which is probably pretty square, and when I used that, it would seem that the T S is not in such a bad shape as I feared.

                            #436598
                            Peter Simpson 1
                            Participant
                              @petersimpson1

                              I have a Light Vertical and have just started to overhaul an M1. I want both machines to machine accurately, but when one talks of tolerances of 0.0001" over eight inches. These types of figures do not need to be achieved in the world of model engineering lathes or milling machines. I would like to seen the original specs for a factory fresh Light Vertical.

                              #436605
                              Michael Gilligan
                              Participant
                                @michaelgilligan61133
                                Posted by Peter Simpson 1 on 09/11/2019 20:12:37:

                                […]

                                I want both machines to machine accurately, but when one talks of tolerances of 0.0001" over eight inches. These types of figures do not need to be achieved in the world of model engineering lathes or milling machines.

                                […]

                                .

                                But, Peter … Would you not want the test equipment to be about ten times better than your own production expectations ?

                                MichaelG.

                                #436606
                                Peter Simpson 1
                                Participant
                                  @petersimpson1

                                  When one is slowly building a Don Young BR Standard Class 2 loco using his circa 1960 diagrams. Anything that turns or mills half square would be sufficient !!!!

                                  #436610
                                  old mart
                                  Participant
                                    @oldmart

                                    As for my 2-4-6 millimetre blocks, I think they went up the hoover.wink

                                    All equipment used for testing must be far more accurate than your actual product. I have micrometers in microns and tenths of a thou, but am pleased to achieve +-0.02mm or +- 0.001"

                                    #436649
                                    I.M. OUTAHERE
                                    Participant
                                      @i-m-outahere

                                      i have a set that are all over the place dimensionally making them useless as parallels , may as well use them as anvils !

                                      #436708
                                      old mart
                                      Participant
                                        @oldmart

                                        Just measuring my 2-4-6 blocks fooled me into thinking they were a perfect pair, as the dimensions matched, although if I had measured several points the discrepancies would have surfaced.

                                        #436761
                                        Neil Wyatt
                                        Moderator
                                          @neilwyatt

                                          If the square is good enough to show the errors on the block, can't you just use the square? Should be possible to run a DTI down the edge of the blade.

                                          Neil

                                          #436764
                                          old mart
                                          Participant
                                            @oldmart

                                            The square is a Mitutoyo combination square which might sound less than perfect, but it is very good indeed. It was the only set in the calibration system at work, and Brian who did most of the shop floor calibration was an incredibly fussy B, when he tested my Mit digital calipers, he noticed the wear at the tips, 0.0001"! I haven't tried it on its own, as it would have to be clamped down lightly, and the edge is only about 3 to 4 mm wide. I did mention getting good results with the Elliot shaper table, it is a good British make.

                                            Edited By old mart on 10/11/2019 20:03:34

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