Why does everyone disagree with you

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

I have been & am a member of many forums. But this one is very special in that if you need help, you get expert info. Which is very good. But if you post any info of your own there are lots of negative comments. Is it the old mans, I know better & do not need any new input. This is going to be bad I know but come on give it your six peneth.

Ditty. I remember fish & chips being 1 & a penny what do you remember.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

[phil gardinerParticipant @philgardiner73127]

Oh i thought it was only me that felt this way.

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

When people disagree with me it's invariably because they haven't thought it through adequately…

The Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson has become somewhat infamous, and has attracted much hate, by daring to challenge political correctness and many widely-held 'truths', which are in fact no more than dogmas. You can find many videos of his talks and interviews on YouTube. He frequently prefaces answers in interviews with 'Well, it's complicated'. How true! Life is complicated, science is complicated, logic is complicated and there is so much that can be shown to be true, whilst being disconcertingly counter-intuitive.

The sad fact is that most people have not been educated to think critically, or even to think for themselves. With the explosion of 'the media', it's too easy for the ignorant or devious to broadcast garbage. It's also too easy to soak up, passively and uncritically, pre-packaged ideas and opinions, rather than to think or learn. Hopefully, knowledge and wisdom, and an appreciation of how complicated things are, comes with age, which is why, I suggest, the older I get, the more exasperated I become with idiot politicians (etc.), whose simplistic evaluations result in knee-jerk 'solutions', and inflexible following of political dogma. I don't think I'm alone. Grrr!

I'd better stop now, calm down, and take my pills…

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

There aren’t enough pills in the MIMS index to calm me down. Only avoidance of the news media helps. You have pretty much said it all. The lack of logic and critical thinking is most of the problem. The subversion of the education system is where it starts. Dogma, and politically correct truths, not open minds and hearing all sides. Climatology is the obvious current example, where an impossibly complex system is reduced to absurdly simplistic notions.

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

I agree that there is a definite negative aspect to this forum regarding information or advice.

I dont know why but one feels a sense of dread when venturing an opinion or asking a "stupid" question. Some of the responses make you feel like a schoolboy being paraded in front of the class for his stupidity. We may as well have a little dunce hat icon for clever members to attach to posts which dont meet their standards.

I'm a member of an American forum and it is so different to this one. Universally supportive, knowledgable without being pompous and good natured even when a little fun is injected.

I recently asked for advice on their forum and was inundated with good, practical and some incredibly technical advice. I know I would not have received the same level of support here.

Some of our mandarins need to think before they post in response to others. For example when I know it's a stupid question but I need to know the answer. Or when I am being funny, ironic, a bit cheeky there is no need to bite my head off.

I'm not sure if it's an english thing or a facet of our hobby which sneers at a lack of knowledge. But this kind of thing will kill the hobby. Its the same at clubs; where shall I go for a good argument and a fall out? Oh yes my local ME club.

Theres my two penneth, make of it what you will.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Steviegtr on 27/01/2020 01:06:27:

This is going to be bad I know but come on give it your six peneth.

No it isn't Argument

* Danny M *

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

You must be a young'un Steve, as a child my chips were 3d (proper money) a bag!

Brian

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Brian H on 27/01/2020 08:28:48:

You must be a young'un Steve, as a child my chips were 3d (proper money) a bag!

Brian

Mine were wrapped in newspaper and we ate them on the way home on a single decker #108 bus from Bow to Homerton.

Lots of vinegar and if I was good mum paid for a huge pickled onion.

Ask away Stevie, you shall soon learn who are fair dinkum and who are the keyboard warriors.

* Danny M *

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Hi Steve, can you give us an example of what you mean?

Tony

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

Posted by Danny M2Z on 27/01/2020 08:45:28:

Posted by Brian H on 27/01/2020 08:28:48:

You must be a young'un Steve, as a child my chips were 3d (proper money) a bag!

Brian

Mine were wrapped in newspaper and we ate them on the way home on a single decker #108 bus from Bow to Homerton.

…

* Danny M *

What, you had buses!

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Just take the bits you find useful and filter out the bits you don't

 

We are all treading different paths, sometimes these paths cross, sometimes they don't

 

Posted by Brian H on 27/01/2020 08:28:48:

You must be a young'un Steve, as a child my chips were 3d (proper money) a bag!

Brian

 

Mine were sixpence,  acquired by liberating a bit of copper from a muddy puddle in Leith Docks and taking it to a metal dealer on the way to the chip shop

Edited By Ady1 on 27/01/2020 09:10:56

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Posted by Steviegtr on 27/01/2020 01:06:27:

I have been & am a member of many forums. But this one is very special in that if you need help, you get expert info. Which is very good. But if you post any info of your own there are lots of negative comments. Is it the old mans, I know better & do not need any new input. This is going to be bad I know but come on give it your six peneth.

Ditty. I remember fish & chips being 1 & a penny what do you remember.

Steve.

I completely agree, I often give my opinions and include logic and reason but some seem to think anything that differs from their own advice is wrong. Take the following common debates:

New machines vs old

Carbide vs hss

Morse taper vs r8

If you answered old, carbide and morse taper you are categorically wrong im the eyes of some people. 🙄

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Ultimately this is a political issue and will probably get curbed or locked.

It has to do with the majority of members living in a country of declining economic and technical prowess, which induces an environment of cutthroat competition for gainful work, where the outcome doesn't always – or even mostly – reflect merit. This leaves many capable individuals close to or beyond the end of their working careers with issues, which will play out in some form in any communication they engage in. That's my two-penn'orth, anyway.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Question posed by the thread title : Why does everyone disagree with you

Response : Probably an invalid question [false premise], and therefore unanswerable

…

Slightly more helpful :

Because this is a forum … which, by definition, is a place where people declare opinions

Because some contributors have strong ‘pre-conceived notions’

Because some people are naturally disposed to ‘preach’ rather than to discuss

etcetera, etcetera

.

Keep it coming, Steve … I, for one, am enjoying your posts.

MichaelG.

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

Posted by Ady1 on 27/01/2020 09:03:35:

"Just take the bits you find useful and filter out the bits you don't

We are all treading different paths, sometimes these paths cross, sometimes they don't";

Very well put Ady.

That's my take on it.

ATB,

Daniel

[Gerard O’TooleParticipant @gerardotoole60348]

Steve, I read your post which I think gave rise to this topic and I understand why you are a little put out at some of the responses.

For what it is worth, I still think they are in the minority here. I for one enjoyed your post

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If you look back at the ME postbag over the previous 90 years you will find some amazing cagefights fought literally for months between various individuals

The language was often deeply respectful and oldy worldy while they fought to the death over the subject matter

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 27/01/2020 09:38:31:

Question posed by the thread title : Why does everyone disagree with you

Response : Probably an invalid question [false premise], and therefore unanswerable

…

Slightly more helpful :

Because this is a forum … which, by definition, is a place where people declare opinions

Because some contributors have strong ‘pre-conceived notions’

Because some people are naturally disposed to ‘preach’ rather than to discuss

etcetera, etcetera

.

Keep it coming, Steve … I, for one, am enjoying your posts.

MichaelG.

You will often see quite different opinions voiced here and it's partly I think because we are a very broad church in the interests we pursue. So you have people with a very wide range of experience who work on projects ranging from horology to full-sized locomotive repair. What makes sense to one will not always make any sense at all to others. This is why one mans "toy" lathe is another persons dream machine.

I try to explain what I do and why within a context (being part machinist & part small scale modeller). My machining methods work for me but might not for others. I need good results but I don't need micron precision. My machinery is mostly old and has seen better days – I occasionally curse it but haven't yet been tempted to change it. Fortunately, I don't need to make a living at what I do (or I'd starve). Whilst I can afford most of what I need and/or want these days, that wasn't always true and I'm still reluctant to spend big money if I can find cheaper ways…

So I am therefore somewhat unique in what I do and the way that I do it – as are most folk on this Forum. We are all different in many small (and sometimes large) ways in both our preferences and experience. I don't see that as a problem – more an advantage – but it would sometimes help if folk put their suggestions into context – e.g. tractor or clock….00 or 71/4"

Regards,

IanT

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well that was a surprise. I thought I was alone in my assumptions. I have got to say above all else this is a brilliant forum with so much of a knowledge base. I was knocking the forum. Just sometimes when I have had replies I go sit on the NAUGHTY STEP FOR A WHILE.

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Ref Ady1 , I would have loved to have seen a 'debate' between someone like LBSC and Jim Ewins over

valve gear design !

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

If something is a fact then if someone disagrees they can be guided to a factual reference. Opinions are where there is room for a debate as we are all entitled to one. We form our opinions on what we think we know, if our knowledge is incomplete or erroneous then we can be wrong and we should be big enough to admit it if facts can be produced to correct our thinking. If there is not a definitive answer then we can debate forever, a persuasive opponent may change your opinion without facts but then you could both be wrong if an answer does emerge.

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Hmm, having read the above I not sure if I'm a goodie or baddy. Obviously I think I offer good-humoured, accurate well-balanced advice firmly based on evidence, and am able to quote references if necessary. It's not about me being right or wrong, I'm here to share and exchange knowledge. Others might see me as 'difficult', because I will challenge faulty logic and misunderstandings, especially when opinion and beliefs aren't supported by evidence.

The tone of the Forum is conversational; it's more like a group chatting in a pub than a formal meeting of the Royal Society. Threads tend to wander, discussions start, and that leads to debate. It allows the forum to address a much wider range of subjects than, say, Practical Machinist, which is more tightly focussed on direct answers to machining questions. As this is a hobby forum, surely wide diversity is a good thing? It's 'Model Engineering' in the widest sense, not limited to steam locos and Myfords!

The expertise available on this Forum is considerable, and it surely has a good claim to be the most helpful hobby forum on the Internet. It doesn't worry me to be be put right by chaps who know what they're talking about and justify their reasoning. Anyone annoyed by an answer who can't offer a factual rebuttal should look to their psychology: no-one likes being told they're wrong, doubly so when the fault is egregious.

Stevie mentions that his offerings have attracted negative comments. I suggest there's a simple reason: Stevie is newly arrived from a professional electrical background and hasn't quite tuned into the subtleties of home workshop electrics yet. He's a newbie plus, with real skills and gaps.  That's led to a few low scoring suggestions rather than bullseyes. Better to adjust one's aim than to take the hump. What's important is offering help, if Stevie persists his expertise will line up with the problem and everyone will benefit. (As an ex-computer professional, I have the same problem.  I know chaps who favour BASIC are wrong, but my expertise is misplaced. If you know BASIC and it does the job, me insisting of the virtues of other computer languages is unhelpful, even if I am right!)

Finally, just having a strong opinion doesn't make it correct! Engineering isn't about opinions. When the evidence contradicts a belief, dump the belief. Never ever believe your own propaganda!

You're all wonderful.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 27/01/2020 10:34:26

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