Which mill

[HevansccParticipant @hevanscc]

I am looking to buy my first mill, mostly for light work making parts for steel bicycle frames. I have a Denford Viceroy lathe and Meddings DrilTru bench drill so have a penchant for British machine tools – have looked at all of the chinese bench-top mills such as sieg etc. but don't thin they will be up to it. I don't have space for a Bridgeport sized mill so have been looking hard at:

• Tom Senior M1
• Centec 2A/B/C
• AEW Viceroy

I am leaning towards a Tom Senior with a vertical head. These seem very compact but with lots of travel for the size. There may be other mills out there that I don't know about but these seem to come up on ebay regularly.

Any advice about these would be much appreciated, as well as the merits of horizontal vs vertical heads.

Thanks

Hywel

[HevansccParticipant @hevanscc]

[egaParticipant @ega]

Hywel Evans:

I'm a life-long cyclist and assume you ride as well as make them. I'd be interested to know what the mill would be used for; obviously, it's a very handy thing to have in your shop but my impression is that most artisan makers did very little milling.

I'm not qualified to advise on the machines you list but others certainly are.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

If you want a Tom Senior, go for the light vertical similar to the M1 as regards table size but has a decent vertical head with quill feed. Only drawback is no power feed. And is heavy but easy to strip down for removal if necessary.

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

Hi Hywel

Im interested to know what you would be machining which would warrant a mill of the sizes you are looking at. i have only used one of those you list so cannot comare them but all three are pretty rhobust. Its not just build quality you need to consider. Also consider availibility of power supply, size of bed, automation level, speed range, ease of gear change and so on.

Nigel

[Bob RodgersonParticipant @bobrodgerson97362]

To add my two pence worth, Ialthough the Tom Senior M-i is a good quality machine I found that with the vertical attachment and a rotary table fitted to the mill table there was very little vertical clearance. If you can find one of their later models (Can't remember the model type or number) that was built as a vertical mill that would be better.

[VicParticipant @vic]

You might also consider a Harrison vertical mill or an Elliott Omnimill.

[HevansccParticipant @hevanscc]

Posted by ega on 30/10/2015 09:32:58:

Hywel Evans:

I'm a life-long cyclist and assume you ride as well as make them. I'd be interested to know what the mill would be used for; obviously, it's a very handy thing to have in your shop but my impression is that most artisan makers did very little milling.

I'm not qualified to advise on the machines you list but others certainly are.

Yes, I also ride, mostly touring but have done some time-trialling. You are right to say that making frames requires no milling, but I hope to progress to making fixtures and fittings such as lights, drop-outs, racks, decaleurs etc, and also jigs and other tools, so a mill would be necessary for these. Also, I just like making stuff so the handyness factor comes in there.

[HevansccParticipant @hevanscc]

Posted by David Clark 1 on 30/10/2015 09:47:00:

If you want a Tom Senior, go for the light vertical similar to the M1 as regards table size but has a decent vertical head with quill feed. Only drawback is no power feed. And is heavy but easy to strip down for removal if necessary.

Yes, I've seen the Tom Senior with the S type head, I think it is called, and quill feed. This would definitely be better but they don't come up much and cost is a factor, though it may be worth the extra for something I will not want to change in future?

[HevansccParticipant @hevanscc]

Posted by fizzy on 30/10/2015 09:48:13:

Hi Hywel

Im interested to know what you would be machining which would warrant a mill of the sizes you are looking at. i have only used one of those you list so cannot comare them but all three are pretty rhobust. Its not just build quality you need to consider. Also consider availibility of power supply, size of bed, automation level, speed range, ease of gear change and so on.

Nigel

Hi Nigel

I know what you mean. I have ummed and ahhd about it and decided to try and get the largest that I can fit in the available space. I guess that I would need an inverter to power a 3-phase motor but understand that the motor on the Tom Senior can be easily changed for a 1 phase if necesary. I will not be milling large thunbs like engine blocks, rather small components, so I suppose a quill feed would be desireable for that. Still umming and ahhing then . . .

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

The Tom Senior horizontal with the non quill vertical is a very good well built machine,belt /gear drives ,single or three phase no fancy electronics,easily dismantled, I owned one about 30 years ago, well they are ideal for small model making but are limited due the 2 mt spindle and the very limited space under the spindle, the M1 with the quill feed E type head has more capacity under the head but still has only a 2MT spindle. The limited capacity was the reason I sold it. I replaced it with an Elliot milmor ,a large machine that needs lots more space. I once saw advertised a Tom senior horizontal mill with both the standard vertical head and the E type head which mounted on the dove tails for the late box type over arm plus the table could pivot,a true universal mill, I reckon this was a super machine selling for around £3500, Seniors made a lot of specials so have a good look around. I am looking to downsize and have been wondering what would be a good replacement for my larger machines, the next bet would be a Harrison as there is more capacity under the 30 international spindle, the majority do not have quill feed ,which I do find all too useful, A friend had a Centec quite a neat machine ok for smaller loco work but a bit too light,my neighbour has an Elliot omnimill, I have not tried it but I do wonder how rigid it is,though it has plenty of capacity.Try to get a mill with a 30 int spindle its more rigid, I do not use power feed very often on x axis its easier to wind the handle and feel the cutter,what I would really like is power feed up on the knee, wind my Elliot up 18 inches at 75 and it really is hard work. Stick to English or continental machines forget the far east.

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

This is my Harrison. Single phase on inverters.

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

Here's my Centec 2B with the Mk3 VH. 3ph motors running from the two inverters visible under the tray. The speed and direction controls for the spindle and power feed are in the box on the RHS of the table.

[FatgadgiParticipant @fatgadgi]

Hi Hywel

I've owned and quite heavily used (for a home workshop) an ex schools AEW Viceroy / Denford / Horizon for probably 15 years now. I think Denford took AEW over at some point and so I'm never totally sure which name to use.

It's a Vertical mill version – I personally wouldn't entertain a horizontal only mill because they are simply nowhere near as versatile; you can do just about anything you'd want to do with a vertical head, including drilling of course.

I too have a penchant for British machine tools that probably owes more to nostalgia than logic – but I first bought a brand new gleaming Chinese mill, the type with a round column, which I kept for less than 2 years before selling and buying the Horizon.

I did strip the sliding parts, clean and adjust it when I first got it, but it's never missed a beat since. I have no intention of changing it yet and would happily buy another if it bit the dust.

It's reasonably well made and accurate for it's class, with a small footprint, just the right size for my workshop. It will take a good cut without complaining, but it's not an industrial mill by any means. The slide ways do not have any proper protection, which has always worried me – no bellows or even felt wipers. Still, to be fair, it doesn't seem to be wearing and it has done a lot of hours of work. One slight restriction is that the Y movement will stiffen slightly now if there is a big torque on the bed, for example if I have a heavy dividing head on the far right of the bed and I mill something on the far left. The width of the shears could have been a bit wider to overcome that, but hey, I only notice it when I'm being lazy.

One thing that caught me out though was the stupid trick of calling it a metric mill. Nope, it was an imperial mill with approximated metric dials, I kid you not. I can only think that they could get away with that for education use, because it didn't look as if anyone had replaced anything and all leadscrews were the same. I screwed up a couple of parts before realising that 25mm of dial movement was really moving the beds 25.4. Grrrrr. I quickly slapped a DRO on it.

Cheers Will

[VicParticipant @vic]

Another nice modest size machine is the Alexander universal or toolmakers mill as some call them. We had one where I use to work. Modest envelope but a very nicely made machine.

[HevansccParticipant @hevanscc]

Posted by Will Bells on 31/10/2015 10:32:50:

Hi Hywel

I've owned and quite heavily used (for a home workshop) an ex schools AEW Viceroy / Denford / Horizon for probably 15 years now. I think Denford took AEW over at some point and so I'm never totally sure which name to use.

It's a Vertical mill version – I personally wouldn't entertain a horizontal only mill because they are simply nowhere near as versatile; you can do just about anything you'd want to do with a vertical head, including drilling of course.

I too have a penchant for British machine tools that probably owes more to nostalgia than logic – but I first bought a brand new gleaming Chinese mill, the type with a round column, which I kept for less than 2 years before selling and buying the Horizon.

I did strip the sliding parts, clean and adjust it when I first got it, but it's never missed a beat since. I have no intention of changing it yet and would happily buy another if it bit the dust.

It's reasonably well made and accurate for it's class, with a small footprint, just the right size for my workshop. It will take a good cut without complaining, but it's not an industrial mill by any means. The slide ways do not have any proper protection, which has always worried me – no bellows or even felt wipers. Still, to be fair, it doesn't seem to be wearing and it has done a lot of hours of work. One slight restriction is that the Y movement will stiffen slightly now if there is a big torque on the bed, for example if I have a heavy dividing head on the far right of the bed and I mill something on the far left. The width of the shears could have been a bit wider to overcome that, but hey, I only notice it when I'm being lazy.

One thing that caught me out though was the stupid trick of calling it a metric mill. Nope, it was an imperial mill with approximated metric dials, I kid you not. I can only think that they could get away with that for education use, because it didn't look as if anyone had replaced anything and all leadscrews were the same. I screwed up a couple of parts before realising that 25mm of dial movement was really moving the beds 25.4. Grrrrr. I quickly slapped a DRO on it.

Cheers Will

This one is on ebay at the moment, they will ship but I haven't been able to go and see it.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=252135415686

[FatgadgiParticipant @fatgadgi]

Hi Hywel

I think I paid something like £600 for mine 15 years ago. A typical price advertised in the classified might be around £1200 recently.

Real pity you cannot get to see it because it doesn't look bad in the photos. There's no close up of the bed, but what you can see looks good and, apart from the additions (electrics and coolant) looks pretty well untouched.

Guess the risk of not seeing vs the price is a personal call …….but if it stays at that price I make a bid just for spares

Cheers – Will

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Haha. There's a Tom Senior on ebay right now. Currently £1.20 after 2 bids. But I suspect it may end up a little higher after 4 days….

[Boiler BriParticipant @boilerbri]

Gary put a better cover over those invertors. they do not like top entry turnings, i know i have been there—POP.

Bri

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

The inverters are actually completely underneath the tray which protects them very well. Ventilation is inside the cabinet.

[HevansccParticipant @hevanscc]

Thanks for all the good advice. I now have a better idea of what I should be aiming for within my budget. I'll just have to be patient and wait for a combination of price and functionality which I am happy with. When I fond something I'll let you know.

The Vicery on ebay went for £692 in the end, so that was a reasonable deal . . .

Hywel

[Author]

Posts