Building a 4″ traction engine

[Karl TearParticipant @karltear46470]

Hi everyone, after some advice or experience on building a traction engine

So iv been looking into building a traction engine for quite a while now. Iv done quite a few different stationary models and these were really to bring myself back up to speed ready for.the traction engine build. Iv decided to build a burrel as im norfolk and burrells history is in norfolk.

Im torn between two.models. either a 4 1/2" platow model or a 4" EKP model. The EKP is a prettier model as it is isnt an agricultural machine like the plastow is, and if it was just based on that id pick the EKP model but it is also much pricier, and unlike plastow they do.not have a builders guide which i think is invaluable

So.my questions are :-

When choosing a model where do you draw the line when it comes to pricing. Should you go all out on the model of your dreams, or is the achievment of.building something like that enough to say il just stick with the plastow

Secondly all the stationary engines i have bought have come as casting kits. Do most people go all out and buy all the castings up front or do people buy castings in stages or as they need them

Thirdly im not part of a club, for boiler testing (which no doubt il get made by a proffessional such as western steam) are their individuals who you can take your model to for testing or is the only route to.join a club ?

Many thanks in advance

Karl

[Karl TearParticipant @karltear46470]

Tips and advice for purchasing a traction engine

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

Hi Karl,

Make sure that you do lots of research on different engines before you commit. There is a lot of work and expense in building a larger model. Also check the physical size of the finished model. Not all 4" scale engines are the same size. It depends of how big the original engine was. My engine is a 6" Ruston Proctor SD but is a similar size to a 4" Fowler. (the original only weighed 3.5 ton.) Almost finished after 7 years work.

It is also good to join a model club and talk to their members about the pros and cons of their engines and where they purchased parts. Different part suppliers sell a different style of the same engine than others. Castings and drawings could be simplified and not have all of the features of the original full size engine. I purchase my drawings and castings from Live Steam Models and were excellent although the drawings did have a couple of small mistakes. I orderred all of the casting at the start of the project as it was a cheaper option. Other materials and tools bought as I needed them.

I live in Australia and our model clubs include indemnity insurance with your membership and the boiler is inspected free. The professional built and inspected option is much more expensive. It would operate at full boiler pressure instead of reduced pressure for models but is not required for a smaller engine.

Most drawings sold for model engines contain some mistakes. Some more than others as they seem to be drawn by drafters with little experience and are not thoroughly checked. Also check that the size of material shown on the drawing is available. Imperial size members may not be available and only in metric. (a set of model drawings only cost a couple of hundred dollars/pounds instead of thousands for professionally drawn. Ya get wot ya pay for)

Good luck, Paul

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Pricing really comes down to the individual. If your main aim is to get out on the rally field as soon as possible you are unlikely to super detail the model by going through all the drawings and altering parts to make them more correct to prototype. However if funds allow you can spend out on things like laser cut parts, ready rolled and welded wheels, etc which will get you running faster but at a cost. If you are on a budget and time is not an issue then you can make more things yourself even fabricating or cutting from solid rather than using castings.

Again really depends on pocket if you buy the lot in one go, I started getting enough to cover the first couple of drawings but as supply was a bit irratic took the step of ordering all the remaining castings so they would be there when I wanted them in the order I wanted to work. Unlike kits from the likes of Stuarts you will have to provide all bar and sheet, fixings etc which do add up so figure that into your totals. If I were making mine again I would be using less castings.

You can have a professional boiler tester do the test and that is what a lot of owners of larger model engines tend to do particularly for steel boilers. If getting it made get one on order as soon as you decide what due to long delivery timescales. A steel boilered engine in that scale would be the way I would go for strength and reduced costs so Western don't do them.

If you are not already a member of Traction Talk Forum then apply as it can take a while to get approved then read through all the builds on there. Neither of your engine choices are very common so you may also want to look into the LSM or John Rex models which are the most common so more help available. I would not put too much hope into the Plastow book if it is anything like the Fowler one they do.

Like Paul's Engine the 4" that EKP do is the Gold Medal Tractor which was a small engine to start with so will only be the size of a 3" Agri. Think of it like an original Mini next to a Volvo estate. If you want the size of a 41/2" Agri but an engine that looks like the EKP one then Little Samson do the Gold Medal Tractor in 6" scale which is a popular model so many build threads to follow.

Edited By JasonB on 05/09/2019 07:35:30

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

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[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

I always advise prospective builders of larger scale traction engines to consider how you will transport it, where you will store it, and how you will manhandle it. There are huge (expensive) implications for what vehicle you drive or are likely to drive. A part built 4" scale engine is about the same footprint as a lathe – so could you easily cram another lathe in your workshop – it's a rare workshop if you can! Finally, how fit (and old) are you? – Don't answer in public on this forum! The fact is you will be shifting best part of 1/2 ton of machinery around on a regular basis so is that going to be feasible 10 years from now?

As to the models you mention, a few comments:

The Plastow drawings have a "reputation" of the wrong sort, being difficult to read and having their fair share of inaccuracies.

The Plastow 4 1/2" scale Burrell is of the 7 HP engine (I think), so makes up into quite a large model, roughly 6 feet long. These days, a copper boiler for this engine would not really be considered, purely on cost. So a steel boiler is probably the way to go – and that has implications for storage and long term care.

There are plenty of examples of this model around, so you will be one of the crowd. However, plenty of build advice and tips on where the drawing errors are will be available.

I assume you are considering the EKP 4" scale Burrell Gold Medal Tractor. I have not heard about EKP's drawings, but generally the GMT is a very detailed and good model. I have not seen the 4" scale model around, so they are not that common. It is to a slightly smaller scale and is a smaller prototype than the Plastow, so will be significantly smaller and lighter. I believe it to be considerably more detailed and closer to prototype than the Plastow.

Plenty to think about!

Martin

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm not so sure about the detail of the 4" GMT from EKP. it is basically a half size of their 8" offering and that uses castings from the 6" agri so more of a GMT from a distance rather than close up where the deviation from prototype can be seen to those that know, Also it is a single cylinder one not the more common compound. Again really depends on what you want out of the engine – just something to rally or a model that is a scaled down version of an actual engine that existed or is still in preservation.

The other GMT models from MJ Engineering and Little Samson that I mentioned earlier are very true to the original and highly detailed which is probably what Martin is basing his comments on.

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Karl, I see you are keen on a Burrell, but I would recommend the 4" Garret from A N Engineering for a beginner, as the drawings are the best I have come across out of the 4 traction engines I have built. The castings are at a sensible price too.

Whichever example you decide upon, I would buy the whole set of castings at the same time if funds permit, then you have them no matter what. Check everything before you cut metal, castings, drawing and mating parts. Having all the castings to hand means you can machine all similar parts in one session, this saves time.

Make an item list once you have the drawings, and list the materials you will need, you can start collecting that as well.

Once you get started with all castings and materials to hand, then you can rattle on without waiting for parts and materials to arrive.

I would recommend AJB boilers for your steel boiler, but there will be a waiting list, so if you order the boiler when you order your castings it should be ready by the time you have machined the mating parts.

Good luck, and you can look forward to some fun when it is ready and you can rally it.

Chris Gunn

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

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[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm not sure they have a website but Adrian's e-mail contact is posted on every installment of the build thread Chris is doing in ME.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

[This posting has been removed]

[Anonymous]

I can't comment on the specific engines mentioned. I am building two 4" scale SCC Burrells using the LSM drawings and castings from John Rex in Pontefract. The drawings are poor, many items and dimensions not detailed and many errors ranging from the minor to show stoppers. The castings from John Rex are very good, they need a fair amount of fettling and are undersize in places, but machine beautifully with no hard spots. Rather than write impenetable paragraphs I'll make a few notes.

Due to the drawing errors, and a desire to change the design, I am modelling the whole engine in 3D CAD. I'm idle and only expect to make parts once, and correclly. I'd rather spend time getting the design right than waste time and material in the workshop. I am building in a rather haphazard order, but I expect parts made years apart to fit together, so proper engineering drawings are a given. Another reason for modelling the design is material availability. While much imperial material is still available an exception is sheet and plate, it's only metric. I had to do some careful redesign when changing the hornplates from 1/4" to 6mm sheet.

I bought all the castings in several tranches over a period of two years. That means I have the castings available as they're often not in stock at the suppliers. On the downside I now have some castings I'm never going to use, and I've binned a fair few castings after machining as not up to standard and/or not prototypical. Of course what is prototypical is a moot point. The fullsize engines were hand built and are all different if only in detail.

I would think it is rare to find a copper boiler in 4" scale on the grounds of cost, strength and working pressure. My steel boilers will run at 170psi, the same as the fullsize engine.

Nobody has mentioned machinery. To build a large engine you need commensurate machines; you're not going to build a 4" engine on a mini lathe! It's not just the weight of the engine and parts; I'm beginning to find it a struggle moving rotary tables, dividing heads and lathe accessories.

One thing you need to decide is what you're going to make and what will be bought. Will you buy ready rolled and welded rims, laser cut spokes and what about the gears? Do you have facilities for machining large spur gears, bevel gears and worms and worm wheels? If these items need to be bought look carefully to see if the supplier lists them or do they only supply castings?

Being a fully paid up member of the awkward squad I want to make everything myself; to do that you need more than the average machinery set and a lot of time. The only thing I haven't made are the steel boilers and a few, mostly hidden, fasteners. I am making all of the external BSF bolts, studs and nuts so I can get the correct pre-war proportions.

I would also commend TractionTalk. There are some excellent build diaries and you get a lot of help from fellow builders and fullsize owners.

Given you're in Norfolk I would recommend the Model Engineers day at the Forncett Steam Museum, a few miles south of Norwich, on Sunday the 6th of October. There should be a number of model engines on display and in steam. There will also be work in progress on display as well. I'll even promise not to bore the pants off you!

A 4" scale engine is big:

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 05/09/2019 11:53:55

[Karl TearParticipant @karltear46470]

Hi everyone

Thankyou so much for all of your feedback

The clubs you have joined, are they just model engineering clubs or specifaclly travtion engine clubs ?, i have a good club up the road from me in kings lynn but they are very much towards locomotive rather than traction engines, having said that they do say they have an interest in any engineering

Machine wise and moving about im set, we are a family run recovery business doing everything up to low loaders and machinery wise we have lathes and mills to cope with the majority of tasks. Literally down the road is a very good machine shop who i pratically speak to daily and like most people in this kind of thing, they are extremely helpfull and would definetly help with the few larger items i couldnt or wouldnt want to do

It may be strange but im 24, my background is perkins maintenance engineer so iv done a good majority of my apprenticeship in a machine shop making parts to keep machined running that otherwise might stop production

Is plastow considered not so good in traction engines ?? Last year i spoke to a few people at the london exhibition and again the drawings were critisised and so were the castings. Iv done a fair few stuarts and i also have come across quite a few poor castings ( porous and sometimes just downright rough)

Andrew il definetly see if i can make it and have a look round, when iv been to different rallies a lot of the owners have not been the builders so it would be good to go somewhefre were people are buolding them themselves. Would you not recommend lSM because of the drawings. Or are you saying theyre ok but approach each drawing with caution ?

Il take a look at john rex. Iv not heard of them but i want to look at all options and make the right decsion

Karl

[Karl TearParticipant @karltear46470]

by the way andrew your model looks very nice so far. Im not sure id be aloud to bring mine in the house but perhaps if i show the mrs your photo and tell her everyone does it, she may well make an exception

Karl

[Anonymous]

That's nothing, this was the kitchen before I had it revamped:

I'll answer the other points when I get back from my bi-annual flying review with an instructor.

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 05/09/2019 14:31:09

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

consider the follwing,available finance,machine tools with adequate capacity,weight transport and suitable storage of finished project,your age ,you may be able to lift castings ,machine tool accessories etc now but will you be able to say in ten years time.A 41/2 inch traction engine requires a steel boiler,after all it is the monocoque chassis of a model weighing several cwt and needs to be strong .Over the last fifty years sets of castings dwgs etc have come on the market and then disapeared.If you intend to buy castings parts over a period rather than at one go try to ascertain will parts be available in the future. From what I have learnt over a long time in which I got close to finishing a Allcjhin and owning a commercial built 6 inch engine,plus restoring and showing I/C stationary engines It might pay to to order a boiler,the dwgs and the castings which are essential to the build,eg the cylinder ,flywheel,differential, diff bevel gears,and other parts which would be difficult to fabricate and buy the rest laterAn alternative way would be to pick on some parts which do not cost a fortune in materials but are more time consuming,eg the road wheels if you are fed up after building 4 wheels then you do not loose a lot of cash.On small engines I learnt that it was better to fabricate the small castings then spend hours fettling them. Plus it can be a rather grimy hobby,with oil and coal,if you run a decent car then plan to carry everything in the trailer if you go to vintage/model shows,wives do not like coal on car seats.I think thats why a lot of modellers use an old transit van.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember19781]

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[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Hello Karl,

Glad to hear you are hale and hearty! Also nice to know you have the room and facilities, so my advice would be to crack on with a big 'un – given the way things are going, it will be easier to sell when that day (hopefully far away) comes.

Aside from the Burrells (various including GMT, agricultural, SCC, showmans, road, crane in 2, 3, 4, 6 & 8" scales) I would have a look at the McLarens (3, 4 & 6" scale of a big engine), Garrett agricultural 4" scale, Garrett tractor in 6" scale, Foster 4" scale (available in compound and single guises – the single is an easy(ish!) build but not very close to scale), Fowler singles in 2, 3 & 4" scales – a nice close scale model, Fowler compound in 4 1/2" scale – a nice model, but Plastow drawings again.

Given your easy access to HGV vehicles etc., I would consider the 8" GMT – there is a build thread on Traction Talk, or a 4" McLaren – they have an excellent reputation. If you want to go silly, have you considered a 9" scale Foden lorry? or 6" Foden lorry if you want to fairly sensible – they go like the clappers.

As to casting purchase, I do not like to tie large sums of money up (nor does SWMBO) so I tend to buy castings in batches and split the build into phases accordingly.

Martin

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Forgot to mention – choosing a club:

For a larger scale model, you are probably going to have a steel boiler. At scales up to 4" or so, you can get that tested by a club. For 6" models and beyond you will be paying for a commercial inspector. If you are getting club inspections, be sure the club has experience of steel boiler inspection and know what to look for. Not all clubs have that experience, and you need that peace of mind.

Martin

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Hello Karl,

Nobody mentioned it so far, steel boiler means professionally built due to skilled coded welder required and the metal has to be traceable. Find out makers with good reputation. Reading all the above, it looks to be a formidable project so I wish you good luck.

John

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Karl, I meant to add that the club I belong to is specifically for road steam, we have no premises, we meet in a pub in the winter, and at rallies in the season. However for our subs of £35 you do get a steam test, and we are able to test 6" scale boilers within limits, which includes my 6" 4CD and some 6" Fodens. We are based in the Rushden area, but have 2 pre-season boiler testing weekends 1 near Bedford, and one at Northampton. we have a few members who travel 30 or 40 miles for the tests, when the time comes you would be welcome if you cannot find anyone that suits you close by.

Chris Gunn

[Anonymous]

To pick up on some points made by Karl; first I don't belong to a club. I rely on forums, especially TT, reading and some informal gatherings. If I don't know something I'll experiment, see what happens and learn from it.

As far as LSM are concerned I'd be cautious,although I now know where a lot of the errors are. Before I started my traction engines I had a bad experience with a supplier of a casting and drawing kit for a hit 'n' miss engine. So when I was looking around for a supplier for the traction engines I wanted someone I could visit and feel the cloth so to speak. I travel up north regularly to glide in Northumberland and John Rex is a couple of miles off the A1 near Ferrybridge. Although he has a website he doesn't really 'do' computers and definitely not emails. If you make it to Forncett we can chat more about the pros and cons of the drawings.

Back in the 90s I flew with the Welland Gliding Club near Corby. It started life as the Perkins Gliding Club and when I flew there a fair number of member had, or did, work for Perkins.

Andrew

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Picking this one up, did Carl decide on an engine ? Did he get it built ? I’m a member of the Kings Lynn club. When I saw his surname I rather guessed who he was. I know where there is a full size Aveling and Porter for sale – he would have no trouble moving it.  Noel.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Really all the points I was going to make have been covered!

 

Like Chris Gunn, I belong to a very similar club but based in Gloucestershire, the MSRVS. Only it is more abstemious, meeting in a village hall rather than pub! It too, can test steel boilers up to 6″-scale: the scheme limit is by boiler capacity times pressure, not engine scale. I don’t know if Chris’ club will have a Midlands exhibition stand but the MSRVS will, and if you are going to that show it may be worth you talking to whoever is on either society’s stand, or even both! (Two heads, etc.)

 

It is general practice now for miniature traction-engines of 4″-scale and above, and indeed many of 3″scale, to have welded-steel boilers, for the reason Nigel McB. explains. Like a railway locomotive, a steam-wagon of more or less any scale can have a copper boiler because it is supported in the chassis, and is not the chassis itself.

 

There is no “official” reason for a club boiler inspector not to inspect steel boilers to the hobby-wide procedure, as it does not call for complex measurements and instruments, and the inspectors in both the MSRVS and my home club do; but be aware you need be a paid-up member of a model-engineering society affiliated to the scheme. At least the inspection is free. Clubs and their boiler-admirers are not allowed to charge for the service. Also, a recent change to the standard club process states a steel boiler has to be inspected visually, externally with the cladding off every (notionally) seven years: it seems acceptable to be at 6 or 8 to keep them in step with the 2-year regular hydraulic tests, at the inspector’s discretion.

You can use a professional boiler-tester, though they are not cheap, and there seem more now who will handle miniatures, BUT you can not mix club and professional inspection schemes; only transfer from one to the other.

A professionally-built boiler will arrive with a full initial “shell test” certificate, to CE standards, a legal document. (I say  “CE”. I think since the UK left the EU, industry has had to change to an equivalent under a different name; but I am not sure what that is. What matters is that it is supplied with the new boiler. Pre-“Brexit” “CE” stamped pressure-vessels and their tickets are still acceptable.)  Such a boiler can be brought into the club scheme, on completion of the engine.

 

Jason refers to the choice between making parts completely or from laser-cut blanks.

This raises asking what may be more economical in money (as well as time). The obvious candidates on traction-engine are all those spokes and strakes, and the bunker plates. You are buying the steel anyway, complete with the retailer’s mark-up, but the laser-cutting company might have more advantageous rates. On the other hand you pay for the suppliers’ setting-up and cutting time, and overheads, yet how much will you spend on electricity, saw-blades and cutters machining all those bits from stock?

This is something I don’t recall being really examined!

You might also wonder if the brownie points from carving all those spokes yourself justifies their hours of repetition work. That choice can only be personal, of course. Everyone strives for a high standard with as much as possible their own work; but while some builders want minimal bought-in components others are more keen to have their engines running as soon as practicable so strike some balance between the options.

Laser-cutting mild-steel can leave hard edges, including on holes that may need drilling out to finished size.

 

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