Warco WM150

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

My Taiwanese lathe is just how I want it, its a belt head with back gear, and has a lead screw for screw cutting, and a separate shaft for the auto feed. In 1986 when I bought the machine, I think there may have been some electronically controlled machines, but with the belt head, about the only thing to go wrong is a warn or broken belt.

The chuck is not attached to the lathe in the photo, it's hung from my hoist, having moved from it's storage shelf about 2M to the right.

Ian S C

Edited By Ian S C on 22/10/2017 10:46:07

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

'twould be ideal Ian, If I could just reduce it's size by around half!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Stewart Mason on 21/10/2017 11:17:09:

Very true. I think I have decided against a Chinese machine anyway. I don't like the thought of a working machine with an expired control board (eventually). I'd rather buy something without the speed control, even if it has to be older or smaller. It's a personal thing. I want something to last me 60 years, like the chap in ME with his Zyto.

It's a shame they don't produce something without the built in electrical gubbins. It seems to be what people want and perhaps it's a missing niche? Something like an old english BGSC lathe at Chinese prices, with the quality of the more recent 'dealer fettled' machines. It's the electronics that puts me off, and perhaps others too. If they produced a kind of mini lathe, but took away the electronics and instead concentrated more on the quality, it would be ideal. Sell it without a motor and allow people to specify the motor and pulleys etc that they want to use. Keep it simple. Thinking out loud.

Very appreciative of the advice and comments.

Ooo. 'It's the electronics that puts me off'. I don't know why that should be (though it often is!) I suggest the the way to view the electronics is the same as the rest of the lathe, i.e. the controller is just another black box. If it breaks you replace it. That shouldn't be a novel idea. For example, do you really understand how to make or repair any of the other major components:

• leadscrew
• bearings
• belts
• gears
• motor
• switchgear
• worn bed and other sliding parts

Almost certainly the answer is 'no', you don't. If any of them fail, the first step will be buy and fit a replacement unless you like restoring old machines. The control board is no different and, trust me, replacing a control board is much easier than replacing a headstock bearing. A belt is a very simple item, yet they are manufactured by specialists and rarely repaired. No-one worries about the unreliability of belts!

Another point is that control boards are the easiest thing to do without on a lathe. If you are happy to fit your own motor and pulleys, why not just disconnect the electronics, and revert to a pre-war drive system on a modern lathe? It's not difficult: the mini-lathe is connected to it's motor by a belt. No reason why it shouldn't be your motor rather than theirs.

By the way, I think it entirely respectable to prefer old to new for emotional rather than logical reasons. If that's what you want to enjoy, go for it.

Dave

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

S O D – well made points … but, there is a VERY great difference between electronics and mechanical – viz. appearance and feel!! Leadscrew, bearings, belts etc. can be SEEN to have problems and what those problems are. If I look at a circuit with my level of electronic knowledge and, unless it has combusted /made magic smoke, I have no idea what is going on. It is the problem which has been mentioned once or twice previously on this forum – members who have electronics expertise tend to assume an equivalent level in their readers – and it ain't necessarily so!! I hasten to add that, when ignorance is pleaded, members do their very best to simplify. I could get a 747 from Heathrow to Hong Kong but I couldn't fix the in-flight entertainment if it went 'mammaries skywards'. Horses, very definitely, for courses … do they make 'lectric hosses???

rgds

Bill

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

Good points well made S.O.D and Cornish. I think half the battle is that for me it's as much the machine being the thing, as the thing it produces. I do think that the Chinese factories are missing a trick and perhaps some proper copies of good British lathes at a nice price would be very welcome. again, thinking out loud. Lathes seem to be a technology that peaked some time ago, so why reinvent the wheel or add unwanted friodes etc!

As for control boards, if someone was wanting to keep a lathe for a long time perhaps it would be prudent to purchase a spare control board at the outset, as these things have a habit of being superseded or discontinued.

At work we have expensive thermal image cameras at least double the cost of a Myford that are only perhaps 5 years old that are no longer supported by the manufacturer, all they need is a new control board, but things have moved on, and no parts now, so into the bin it goes. The very reason I come to this hobby is my willingness to learn to diagnose, repair, make do, mend, create etc machinery of all descriptions. I hate waste and throwaway things. I'm lucky that apart from the electronic gizmos most gear I deal with at work was perfected 50 years ago, and parts are still available, can still be ordered, or are easy to make in a basic workshop. Again, technology that peaked some time ago. There are quite a few items that have been brought up to date by fitting electronics, but if you smash them off with a hammer, you still have the basic gear, and it works fine without the electronics.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The far eastern factories are not missing any tricks, you can get very nice Hardinge copies but most model engineers don't want to pay the price of one even though it is a lot less than what a new Hardinge would likely have cost today.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

The other day I came across 'cognitive dissonance'. It's the condition where a person holds two or more contrary opinions at the same time.

Along with all those other internet illnesses I've got, I suffer from cognitive dissonance in spades. I like repairing old stuff and go out of my way to see restored cars, traction engines and steam locomotives. I can send and receive morse code. I love black and white films, Edgar Lustgarten, Bulldog Drummond, Blower Bentleys, and red Telephone Boxes. At the same time I like progress, innovation, new ideas, economics, logic and scientific method. My ideal working model is a metal Stephenson's Rocket 3d printed in metric with an Arduino Engine Management Unit.

It's no wonder I'm so confused!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 22/10/2017 13:31:38

[Anonymous]

Like all engineering it boils down to money. It costs a lot of money to provide proper belt, or gear, driven spindles over a wide speed range. It's much cheaper to provide a PCB made for very few dollars and an appropriate motor. Like it or lump it hobby machines sell mainly on price. Even cheaper are moulded gears.

There's no reason why electronics shouldn't be reliable, but judging by some of the threads on this forum some motor drive PCBs are not. Anybody can design a circuit that will drive a motor. But designing a power electronics board that is reliable and will survive in the real world with mains transients, and operator and output fault conditions, is a different ballgame.

Andrew

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Stewart Mason on 22/10/2017 12:52:38:

Good points well made S.O.D and Cornish. I think half the battle is that for me it's as much the machine being the thing, as the thing it produces. I do think that the Chinese factories are missing a trick and perhaps some proper copies of good British lathes at a nice price would be very welcome.

British lathes like the old Myfords were designed to be finished with extensive hand fitting. They can make them like that in China, but they won't be as cheap as lathes made using CNC and extensive jigs.

Neil

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I can understand the reluctance to rely on electronic boards to control a lathe, when I bought my lathe ten years ago I tossed up which to get , electronic or gear head, I chose what I think was the only gear head lathe in the small lathe bracket, at that time, a Warco BV20. At the time there was a lot of discussion about the reliability of the electronic boards fitted to small lathes, now the boards appear to be far more reliable and therefore much less of an issue. My BV 20 lathe was a good choice, mechanically it has been very good, doing all the tasks that I have asked of it, I have taken some ferocious cuts with it when trying to avoid work hardening with stainless alloys, my only long standing criticism is the noise from the gear head, the gears are made to a price, the lathe was inexpensive and you cannot expect hardened ground gears in a budget machine. The only breakdown that I have suffered was strangely enough electrical, the NVR switch decided to expire, simple enough to fit a replacement. Knowing what I have learnt from my experience of a smallish Chinese lathe I wouldn't hesitate to buy another, although I do hanker after a Harrison or Boxford, pre owned of course, it is but a pipe dream as the financial controller would never sanction it.

Dave

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

Something like the BV20 but half size! Ah well, I will just have to keep looking for something suitable. At some point I will stop whining and make a decision. That's the problem at the start, you don't quite know what you want to build, so any lathe you get has a good chance of being wrong. I shall just have to decide on a machine, and get on with some suitable projects, either that or keep saving and buy a 'modern old fashioned' machine, Cowells, Myford etc.

Anyone need a kidney?!

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 22/10/2017 13:53:04:

Like all engineering it boils down to money. It costs a lot of money to provide proper belt, or gear, driven spindles over a wide speed range. It's much cheaper to provide a PCB made for very few dollars and an appropriate motor. Like it or lump it hobby machines sell mainly on price. Even cheaper are moulded gears.

 

In that vein, I wonder why no manufacturer has taken the next logical step, and replaced the entire thread cutting apparatus with an electronic leadscrew. Infinitely variable fine feed, and ANY thread pitch you want at the touch of a keypad sounds good to me. A 125mm swing benchtop(sized) machine supplied like that with VFD spindle speed control would go straight to the top of my wishlist.

Edited By Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 22/10/2017 15:05:07

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

My reluctance to embrace a lathe with electronic speed control is down to my work room being completely devoid of anything digital. Not even a calculator. I play with emails, downloads, software, mobile phones, etc at work, (even though nobody calls my work mobile) because I'm told I have to, but at home, it's a different game entirely. I don't have a personal mobile, I don't have an email address. I have had both up until a few years ago, and they contributed the square root of sod all to my life. I'm a simple working man, why would I need a 'mobile telephone'? I do own a laptop to keep up with the internet, albeit in a very controlled manner.

In my work room I have hand tools, and as I'm not a complete luddite I was willing to consider a lathe with electronics, but I feel I should stick to what I like and keep looking for something without. This is no hair-shirt puritanism but simply a wish to keep life very very simple.

BTW I hate driving too, I'd rather just own a bicycle, but I have to commute 30 miles to work. You're probably thinking I'm in my 60's or more? I'm 43!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Stewart Mason on 22/10/2017 19:37:27:

…

simply a wish to keep life very very simple.

…

I'm 43!

I wish I was 43!

Anyway, how about going completely off the grid with a treadle lathe like this example on ebay? I sneaked a play on one at the Museum of Work in Bath and it wasn't a complete disaster. I think with practice it would work quite well and it would certainly keep you fit! I suspect most model engineering before 1935 was done on treadle lathes and those guys really knew their stuff.

Dave

[Stewart MasonParticipant @stewartmason95803]

Dave, If only! Treadle lathes seem to be kept by people as decorative pieces or for museums etc, don't they realise there are people out there who still want to use them for their original purpose! I find most tools interesting, but especially the lathe as it is the only tool capable of creating it's self. Fascinating.

Recently enjoyed looking at the for sale and wanted ads from a load of Model Engineer magazines from 1947 that I have bought. Plenty of people advertising such machines. I wonder how many are still at the addresses listed! I'm sure the right machine will turn up eventually. until then I shall continue to practice with basic hand tools, and my trusty little 'Adept'

It's all good.

[Author]

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