Gas Tap Valves. Vintage

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

You cannot manufacture i.e. make fuel gas equipment for heating, cooking, boiling water (covers the steam aspect) etc. or components that form part of them unless you comply with the requirements. That includes design requirements, assessments, testing and documentation. Some items require 3rd party assessment.
There is no exemption for personal use, it doesn’t matter that if you are selling it or not. Nothing to stop you complying with the requirements as an individual but it’s probably not worth the effort.

Assembling approved items like regulators, valves, hoses and burners in accordance with their instructions that are not connected to a fixed supply of gas or part of a fixed installation is allowed.
Doing any work on fixed installations requires appropriate qualification and registration i.e GasSafe.

Now I’ve nothing against people doing their own thing generally in the privacy of their own home. However fuel gas is a different matter. It can and has had fatal consequences for people other than the user. A gas explosion in a building an easily damage or destroy neighbouring properties.

Even for other things like electrical safety that are less likely to affect others it is one thing to do your own thing but telling others “it’s all right” or giving unsound advice is not good.

Robert.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Appliances burning gaseous fuels used for cooking, refrigeration, air-conditioning, space heating, hot water production, lighting and washing and also forced draught burners and heating bodies to be equipped with such burners
Fittings which are regulating, controlling or safety devices and sub-assemblies thereof intended to be incorporated into appliances or assembled to constitute appliances.

So does an IC engine, loco, or steam boat fall into the heading of an appliance?

For as long as I have been making models which is over 40 years the hobby has been making use of DIY ( home made) fuel gas equipment yet never have I seen mention of it needing to comply with any regulation, just common sense.

I’m not just talking propane and butane but there are also hobbyists who make use of hydrogen and acetylene to run their engines, sometimes mixing their own hybrid gas from two or more of those to create something similar to illuminating or town gas.

The regulations don’t apply to items “specifically designed” for use on aircrafts [sic] or railways. This is because these areas have their own regulations. Not sure how that applies to model locomotives, but I do know how it applies to model aircraft and UAVs in the UK. You can either declare your model as a aircraft and follow the aviation regulations (in some case you have no choice due to weight or size) and not have to conform with UKCA / CE or follow the UAV/ Model regulations (very new) which as well as specific requirements say you have to comply with the relevant UKCA / CE directives. This include specific mention of compliance with the Machinery Directive.

Robert.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

So why can model engineers run their home made gas equipment in public without the tests and certificates that are required for pressure vessels? For example a club will only test the boiler and gas tank of a model boat not the burner or regulator, they are then happy for it to be run and it is covered by insurance.

Or go to any model exhibition and you will see sterling engines running off gas bottles which feed home made or modified burners. Also IC engines running off propane both as a fuel gas often via home made demand regulators, and valve. If they are hot tube engines then the gas will also be running through additional valves/regulators and feeding the hot tub eburners which again are home made, somtimes ith modified commercial parts. Same with vacuum engines. None of these are tested or certified yet deemed OK for public running.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

I’m not saying it isn’t done.
I’m saying it should not be. Drinking and driving is still illegal if you have more than a specified limit in your blood / breath  even if you are not caught. And its a bad idea anyway.
Lack of enforcement does not legitimise something. It may however allow it to become normalised and that is when accidents happen.

Worse case scenario a homemade fuel gas appliance fails at a busy exhibition causing n explosion and fire with fatalities. The maker of the appliance and the organisers end up facing criminal charges. Do you want to be there?

Robert.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Drinking and driving is still illegal.

Robert.

Not necessarily, in the UK at any rate.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The following is a personal opinion.
Lots of potentially dangerous things like model steam engines and model aircraft were done in the past with a fair degree of safety and no issues. My view is that this was because it was difficult, relatively expensive and it took effort. So people took advice from established clubs etc. This ment they were careful and did things to good standard.
Now people can get dodgy advice from social media and buy cheap dodgy equipment from online sellers. This is driving issues and thus regulations.
An example is aeromodellers. For decades they were very much self-regulating but have now been caught up in the issues with UAV’s and for example now have to report accidents and incidents to the AAIB. This includes fly-aways

Robert.

[Bill Phinn]

On Bill Phinn Said:

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Drinking and driving is still illegal.

Robert.

Not necessarily, in the UK at any rate.

You are being excessively picky post changed to reflect a legal limit.

Robert.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

On Bill Phinn Said:

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Drinking and driving is still illegal.

Robert.

Not necessarily, in the UK at any rate.

You are being excessively picky post changed to reflect a legal limit.

Robert.

I’ve not articulated my main objection yet, which is the poor equivalence, both legally and morally speaking, of your analogy. Maybe I should hold off from elaborating, in case I receive any further negative appraisals of my conduct.

[Bill Phinn]

On Bill Phinn Said:

On Nicholas Farr Said:

Hi, yes there are laws and regulations about servicing gas equipment, I have been trained in the inspection of Oxyfuel gas equipment

I wasn’t under the impression, Nick, that the OP’s stove was a piece of oxy-fuel equipment. Where does the oxy bit come in?

Also, without wishing to detract from your own credentials, if the knowledge (or rather lack of it) shown by two of the biggest welding equipment suppliers in my region (one of whom is BOC) is anything to go by, paper credentials (which they both have in abundance) count for very little.

One of the suppliers told me with absolute seriousness that JM Tenacity 20 flux powder was “only intended for brazing tin”, and the other publicly maintains that propylene (with oxygen) can be used for fusion welding. I leave aside how they handle and store oxygen cylinders.

On the subject of old oxy-fuel kit, I’ve got several brazing/welding shanks and associated neck tubes and nozzles from the 1950’s that are safe and sound in use to this day…in the right hands – a caveat that surely applies to any item of industrial equipment.

Hi Bill, my example is just one aspect of fuel gas regulations, but of course every type of fuel gas needs oxygen to burn, whether it’s from a cylinder or from fresh air. Paper credentials do count for various reasons, despite what your gas equipment suppliers tell you. Now in the case of my certificate, it shows that I can inspect and test/replace faulty units with confidence, and to record and file the results, but if I falsify any of the results, I could find myself in court, and that is why I only accepted the job, provided that what I said needs to be done was done. However, it is not a legal requirement to have them tested, at least during the tine I was working it wasn’t, but if there is an incident involving gas equipment and if no proof of testing and maintaining said equipment could be produced, then serious prosecutions could land on the desks of those who are in charge. Now a Judge probably wouldn’t know one end of a blow pipe to the other, but they would be able to look up the codes of practice, and compile the summing up as to who or where, the blame might point too. When I started inspections and testing, there were a lot of potentially serious faulty sets on the site, which I made safe, without any questions from the company, even a busted gauge glass would require the whole regulator to be replaced.

Just remember, a fuel gas won’t care where it is, be it  in a factory, a garage, your home workshop or your kitchen, if it gets a chance to explode, it will.

Regards Nick.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Thanks for your answer, Nick.

I’m not quite sure what formal powers you’re saying your certificate of attendance at the BOC workshop twenty years ago grants or granted you that any other person who didn’t attend the workshop might not also have. It doesn’t strike me as any sort of valid certification demonstrating competence for inspection or compliance enforcement on anyone else’s gas equipment or even your own.

And with respect to Robert and his good intentions, in citing “Regulation 2016/426 and the Gas Appliances (Enforcement) and Miscellaneous Amendments Regulations 2018: Great Britain”, I am fairly sure he is looking at the wrong piece of legislation.

I believe the right piece is:
The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

starting here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/regulation/1

There is nothing I can see there that prohibits, or implies would constitute an offence, any of my own creative, one-off gas equipment-related activities or many of the sort of club activities sketched out in Jason’s examples.

As for matters of insurance…well that is an entirely separate issue.

[martin haysomParticipant @martinhaysom48469]

a certificate of attendance is just what it says. you attended there is no proof you lerent anything.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

That what I am saying Bill, I don’t think there is anything that specfically affects model engineers in this context. I’m not saying common sense and good practice don’t come into it but I have never seen in magazines, ME books, Forums etc any warnings about complying with legal obligations. And that is right from Volume 1 of ME & E or the Boys Own Magazine where there are plans to build a “gas engine” which used town gas for both fuel and to heat the hot tube.

I expect there are also rules on liquid fuel tanks, pumps, carbs, pipework etc but again never a mention of legal restrictions in Model Engineering that I have ever seen or heard of. Not sure what vapour carbs and vapour tanks come under but again not seen anything mentioned but I have made and used them.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Bill, the certificate would have been registered with BOC, and accepted by the companies insurance, but of course I don’t Know if it still is with either of them, but that is irrelevant now, as I’m not working for anyone.

Hi Martin, you could say that about any type of certificate, but I can assure you I did learn a lot, and we did have a basic exam paper to fill in at the end. I also did proper tests and replacements, the results of which were all filed in the companies records.

Yes, many build gas engines etc. However, the OP is servicing a commercially made piece of equipment, and so if anything goes wrong, and people are injured, killed, or property is damaged, who is to blame? I expect it wouldn’t be the company who originally made the item. We are all responsible for anything we make, so as not to cause a danger to anyone or property, whether that is to do with gas, or a welded fabrication.

Regards Nick.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I’ve no intention of reading the whole document, but the regulations quoted by Robert seem to apply to manufacturers who are going to market their equipment.  If you are making for your own use do they apply? Similar to boilers made for your own use not needing CE or UKCA mark.

[Bill Phinn]

On Bill Phinn Said:

<SNIP>And with respect to Robert and his good intentions, in citing “Regulation 2016/426 and the Gas Appliances (Enforcement) and Miscellaneous Amendments Regulations 2018: Great Britain”, I am fairly sure he is looking at the wrong piece of legislation.

I believe the right piece is:
The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

starting here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/regulation/1

There is nothing I can see there that prohibits, or implies would constitute an offence, any of my own creative, one-off gas equipment-related activities or many of the sort of club activities sketched out in Jason’s examples.

As for matters of insurance…well that is an entirely separate issue.

No, I quoted the correct regulations. I, and this thread, are referring to MAKING (manufacturing) parts of a gas system.
The regulations you linked to control the installation of items that are already approved.

Robert.

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

I’ve no intention of reading the whole document, but the regulations quoted by Robert seem to apply to manufacturers who are going to market their equipment.  If you are making for your own use do they apply? Similar to boilers made for your own use not needing CE or UKCA mark.

That is not correct. It is a common misconception about UKCA / CE marking. 5. 1) is clear on this “Before placing gas appliances or fittings on the GB market or when using for their own purposes,..”.

This is because it can affect others not just the user. There ued to be  dispensation in  couple of directives that allowed not putting the mark on but that has been removed as people did not realise you still had to comply with everything else in the directive.

EDIT:
Steam pressure vessels etc have their own regulations, The UKCA / CE pressure vessels directive specifically excludes them. We are lucky in having historic rights to self regulation. If people abuse this or steam models become more mainstream it could be revoked and we would have to pay for commercial inspections.

Robert.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

That what I am saying Bill, I don’t think there is anything that specfically affects model engineers in this context. I’m not saying common sense and good practice don’t come into it but I have never seen in magazines, ME books, Forums etc any warnings about complying with legal obligations. And that is right from Volume 1 of ME & E or the Boys Own Magazine where there are plans to build a “gas engine” which used town gas for both fuel and to heat the hot tube.

I expect there are also rules on liquid fuel tanks, pumps, carbs, pipework etc but again never a mention of legal restrictions in Model Engineering that I have ever seen or heard of. Not sure what vapour carbs and vapour tanks come under but again not seen anything mentioned but I have made and used them.

Just because there have never been warnings does not mean there are no regulations. Regulations change of time. For example our gas cooker while of good quality, fully compliant when installed and regularly serviced by a registered gas fitter could not be installed today as it does not have a flame failure cut-off device. CE only came in in the 1990’s for example.
Lack of warnings in published works could be historical, ignorance, “head in the sand”, “don’t care because it’s not our problem” or a combination. Times change, you are much more likely to face civil legal action following an incident today than even 30 years ago. Insurance companies are much more likely to look for non compliance with their terms and reduce payout accordingly.

I’ve not looked recently but I don’t think there are regulations covering “in use” fuel tanks other than those contained in overarching regulations for vehicles, boats or consumer products. There are regulations on storage containers and their use. Interestingly as part of a fairly recent revision the modified the quantities so that the classic “Jerry Can” is finally legal for storing petrol. I’ve been told, but have no evidence, that this was due to the UK military deciding to comply with civil safety requirements and they didn’t want to replace the containers. Clearly the Jerry can was safe but it was too large to comply. Years ago I knew one local filling station would not let you fill them with petrol. They had a poster with the relevant legislation.  When running small aviation gas turbines as a hobby I always used ready made fuel tanks intended for outboard motors on boats. As well as being “best practice” (a good defence if anything did go wrong) you could put more than 10 litres (kerosene) in them legally.
At one aircraft / car show where a group of us were running turbines as part of the stationary engine display I was shocked to see a microlight pilot arrive with several 25 litre translucent plastic containers of petrol in the back of his car. If  he had been involved in a accident the consequences would have been terrible. There was no need to carry fuel other than cost as it was available at the airfield.

Robert.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, on the subject of storing petrol at home, you are only allowed 30 litres without informing anyone, but there are some rules. I don’t know how many people know this fact. storing petrol at home

Regards Nick.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Returning to the subject of the old type tapered taps, I used to lap them with Brasso, and then strip and clean them thoroughly before use.

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