Electricity Supply

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Lots of rosie figures on range, but in what conditions?

My first thoughts on this came when on a long drive in wet, cold dark conditions on a busy M6 & M6.

Yes, the lamps would be le.d. units so not taking a huge wattage; but in a battery-only car what supplies the wipers, screen-washers and demister / heater? What effect does that have on the range?

The service stations are at various distances apart but typically 20 -30 miles on that route. Some motorways have few or no service-stations. How much congestion and hours lost will result from the queues for chargers, even if a service area has, say, 30 units? How many motorists might be caught out, leading to a steady trade for the recovery services?

What's noticeable in all the public utterances from the Press and politicians is that they concentrate on commuting and shopping, local or fairly short-range trips.

I think a lot of people will be unable to travel longer distances for leisure and social purposes unless public transport is feasible for the particular journeys: in very many cases it is not. This will please the environmental campaigners who apparently never go anywhere (unless to demonstrate); but warding off changing the climate will have a huge, deleterious effect on the nation's cultural life and the multitudinous trades that support it.

The more remote areas of the country are likely to become more isolated, less populated and poorer if tourism is a major source, as that and its supporting services die off.

In many respects life will return to something like Edwardian times, when either you were wealthy enough to own a motor-car, or you went by train or charabanc so were limited in choice of destinations and their environs.

Will these battery cars be able to tow anything? If not that will make the Jeremy Clarksons of the world delirious with delight at the reduction in caravans and probably motor-caravans, and the employment supporting these interests; but remember towing also includes trailers for boats and other large outdoor-pursuits equipment, vintage vehicles and machinery, large-scale miniature engines….

Will there be trains? The Government has been chuntering about wanting diesel traction ended in the next decade or so; but will it ensure full replacements on the thousands of miles of non-electrified line? Does it have an electrification plan more cohesive than the rich variety of remarkably heavy-duty overhead wiring columns now used? Or will it just close these routes – so no passengers and freight West of Bristol and Weymouth (losing their direct connection too), and Salisbury; none in Wales except perhaps Bristol to Cardiff and Swansea, none North of Scotland's two primary cities; none in sizeable other English regions?

Or it electrifies them but how does it propose supplying them?

Meanwhile, Brexit or not, the EU is allegedly considering cutting European air lines to a minimum, with obvious effects on both business and tourism.

I think as reality dawns the Governments of the next few decades will find themselves very unpopular and faced with considerable opposition however well-meaning and necessary the restrictions.

(One review in the 1970s or 8os apparently called for closing almost the entire UK rail network, either directly or by cutting so many through-routes they would become short branch-lines that inevitably would wither way whilst also starving the remaining main lines of passengers. The Government of the day quietly shelved it. Sorry, I forget the name above its title.)

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Then into that mix is the revenue the government will lose over time as EV's become more relevant currently £28 bn per year. Do they add a duty to electric supply? Road tax? tolls?

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

a friend drove his new Tesla from just south of Paris to just north of Bordeaux and had to stop 3 times to get the charge to make the trip…..3/4 hr per charge…not the right vehicle for the job me thinks…..

when u think of the overpriced e/vehicles forget them for the moment….

oh, do u own the batteries or are they leased….cos after say 5 years they will be junk…cost of replacement….??

then they'll want an extortion amount to dispose them

my take on it is, just dump the whole vehicle in the ocean and use it as an anchor…..

before the busy bodies get involved we need the next jump in techno….

then E/V's might be worth having…….

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Nigel:

Back to some figures from experience. Cold wet winter at night using motorways (as opposed to tiny country lanes) and I'd still expect over 200 miles range. As it happens it's short trips in the cold on narrow lanes when you have to keep sowing down that when the car is 'less efficient' – but then probably an ICE is too. Nice warm dry weather and 300 miles is doable at motoreway speeds.

I live in very rural wales and it's 7 miles each way to my nearest petrol station – so unless going that way or ona trip where stops allow a fill on route with an ICE it costs me 1/2 a gallon to refill my innefficient old 200sx. Electric I can top up at home.

Yes, gov will find a way of recovering their lost fuel revenue – lots of tax ways to do that (suggestions include GPS based road usage, higher excise duty, huge tax on insurance premiums and so forth)

Yes some EV's can tow.. model X is rated thus. Yes it affects range.

Clogs:

Paris to Bordeaux. Google tells me it's circa 360 miles with superchargers en route.. It depends on which model and battery size your mate had in his Tesla. If I was doing that run in my 100D I'd start by planning a full 100% top-up overnight (309 theoretical miles range) and then find a supercharger between 200-250 miles away if possible so i can hammer my foot down without worrying about range. I'd then top up to 80% charge which would take between 45-60 mins while I pee, clean the windows of bugs and read the paper. I now have 240 miles range to complete the journey assuming charge facilities at destination. If not I'd do another top-up near that destination.

There are constant improvements. The new Model3 75KW battery on the newest superchargers (still being installed) would be able to go 1st stage similar distance but top-up in 15-20mins.

Either car could do the trip non-stop in perfect weather if it stuck to steady 60mph on motorways with light traffic When chargers are more frequent and one can avoid planning.

I wouldn't be planning if doing that trip in my aged 200sx… I'd just drive until the tank read 1/8th left and expect to find petrol within the next 30 miles. It is a guzzler at motorway speeds and 32mpg if lucky so the whole tank range is under 300 miles. I did a run from london to prague in it once. At autobahn speeds I could see the fuel needle moving and had to refuel inside 2 hrs @120mph (top speed 130)…My reflexes aren't good enough these days to drive like that but I'd feel a lot safer in my tesla at 120 (top speed 150) and even though the leccy drain would be high it'd still be lots less than the recharge rate so driving it fast and stopping more often still works out best time.

Edit: One last point. If using petrol it still takes 5 mins to refuel, another minute or three to walk to kiosk and pay and a few mins to go pee. With an EV you get out and plug-in. The car deals with the fuelling, the charger debits you account automatically. It still takes the same time to pee but you can still argue  a few mins off the refuel time differences.

 

Edited By pgk pgk on 09/06/2019 07:11:03

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Well that brought some interesting replies. I dont't know where Mr Gilligan lives, but around here a one hour drive isn't that far if you have to go at the wrong time of day. For example, I allow 1 hour travelling to my "local" hospital, which is 20 miles away. Admittedly I'm not using full power. In fact I spend a lot of time queuing at roundabouts and waiting at red traffic lights. Then when the lights turn green and you can go, you see the next set, 100yards down the road, change to red !

The main point I was trying to raise, was the lack of suitable infrastucture and the apathy from the powers that be regarding future planning. I'm pleased to see that quite a few people agree with me.

The street where I live has about 200 houses. If you assume half of them charge their electric cars at the 32 amp rate that is 3,200 amps. One would assume the supply cables are able to handle that, but are they? I don't where the local sub station is, or how many other houses it is supplying, but is that up to the job? I've spent a lifetime in electronics, but as you can probably tell, I know very little about power distribution.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 09/06/2019 07:53:38:

Well that brought some interesting replies. I dont't know where Mr Gilligan lives, but around here a one hour drive isn't that far if you have to go at the wrong time of day. For example, I allow 1 hour travelling to my "local" hospital, which is 20 miles away. Admittedly I'm not using full power. In fact I spend a lot of time queuing at roundabouts and waiting at red traffic lights. Then when the lights turn green and you can go, you see the next set, 100yards down the road, change to red !

.

Sorry, Anthony Mr Knights … You missed my point completely

You cited a maximum power output, and then proceeded to base your figures on that.

I was merely pointing out that if you were using all that power … you would travel a long distance.

Note: wheelspin at the traffic-lights doesn't count as 'using'

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Proper formality introduced.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 09/06/2019 08:13:15

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

The preceding discussions illustrate some impracticalities with total electric, would not the way forward be hybrid vehicles using hydrogen and electric, arguably as pollution free as all electric. Problem is our political leaders have put their money on all electric, probably not a well informed decision.

Dave W

[J HancockParticipant @jhancock95746]

Nice to see Cottam annd West Burton gently chugging away yesterday.

Coal, fuel of the future.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 08/06/2019 07:32:36:

… This is just over 100HP and is probably typical of the average family car. It did however set me thinking………………

Assuming I was still working and was doing a 2 hour daily commute with an electric vehicle, that is 160 Kilowatt hours which I would have to put back into the car when I got home at night. .

.

For the avoidance of doubt … I believe that ^^^ to be a 'false premise'

**LINK** https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise

MichaelG.

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

I've been looking for some sort of longer term planning or strategy for NZ. I've not found one and have assumed that with a deregulated electricity industry nobody wants to be the one to put up their hand and acknowledge there could be a problem.

I have found this from the UK though which may be a start

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/739460/road-to-zero.pdf >**LINK**

At the back are links to 218 other websites or papers related to the subject.

Pete

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

10,000 – 12,000 mile a year is the often quoted average mileage for a car which is less than 250 miles a week, so for many people charging will not be necessary every day or if they like to keep the tank full will not be a full charge. I live in a village and car ownership for working people is essential. There are just over 1000 houses in the village (soon to be 1300) and I would say the village car population must be between 2000 and 3000. I would think the longest commute would be a 100mile round trip to London as we are near enough for quite a few people to make that trip. Commuters seem to have a sense of humour, I saw a Merc joining the M40 with the number plate M40 YYY and for some years a fence visible from the M40 had the slogan ‘Why do I do this everyday?’ Painted on it

Mike

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 09/06/2019 07:53:38:

…I dont't know where Mr Gilligan lives, but around here a one hour drive isn't that far if you have to go at the wrong time of day. For example, I allow 1 hour travelling to my "local" hospital, which is 20 miles away. Admittedly I'm not using full power. In fact I spend a lot of time queuing at roundabouts and waiting at red traffic lights. Then when the lights turn green and you can go, you see the next set, 100yards down the road, change to red !

The main point I was trying to raise, was the lack of suitable infrastucture and the apathy from the powers that be regarding future planning. I'm pleased to see that quite a few people agree with me.

…

I hope Antony won't mind me using his post as an example but reading back through the thread I see several negative remarks about 'powers that be', 'busy-bodies', 'bureaucrats. 'lifestyle-journalists', 'press and politicians', 'EU allegedly considering', 'political leaders' etc. These, like Brussels, are easy targets! Unfortunately it's difficult to see how our critical forum friends would do better because they offer no alternative solutions, other than 'not happening', 'can't happen' or 'head in the sand'.

Furthermore opinion based on a technical misunderstanding is always on thin ice. Antony started the thread by assuming that his car engine's maximum power output was delivered throughout an entire journey. Not true, and as a result he over-estimated the electrical load. Later, he conflates the time taken to do a journey with the energy consumed, which is also wrong. (An electric motor consumes no power unless the car is actually moving. It doesn't 'tick-over' at traffic lights like an IC engine.)

Sorry chaps, but I don't think irritable simplicity helps solve complex problems. Even though they make horrible mistakes too, you have to go with the Exspurts. Better trust an idiot than an ignorant idiot, especially if the ignoramus is a politician with the gift of the gab. Believe it or not, some politicians are entirely happy to get our votes by pretending to agree with daft prejudices.

I don't think Antony's slips mean he should be cast into the outer darkness and made to wear a Dunce Cap! Rather they're an opportunity to improve understanding from which we all benefit. Better to test ideas, and – if they fail the challenge – to think again.

Dave

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Samsaranda on 09/06/2019 08:31:46:

The preceding discussions illustrate some impracticalities with total electric, would not the way forward be hybrid vehicles using hydrogen and electric, arguably as pollution free as all electric. Problem is our political leaders have put their money on all electric, probably not a well informed decision.

Dave W

The present problem for Hydrogen is it's commercial production is from fossil gas. There have been recent suggestions re catalysts to make electrolysis more effective but if using leccy to make hydrogen then there are inherent losses in manufacture and usage that make it pointless apart from faster refuelling. I believe there was some chap playing with direct solar power (as in focussed rays in the desert) to create a fuel from atmospheric CO2 in a net neutral way??

The holy grail must be a way to crack water to it's gasses cheaply but if then burning it (as opposed to fuel cells) you have all the wear of reciprocating engines and lubricants.

Clogs: Latest EV batteries are reducing their cobalt contents, improving charge densities etc and most come with 8yr warranties and there is a lot done with recycling and recovering the lithium. There's even suggestion on the horizon for combining traditional batteries with new capacitor tech which theoretically speeds up getting a charge into the car.

Few people criticise solar panels but they have a finite life and heaven knows how they're going to get recycled or dumped and their manufacture is hardly pollution free either. The same applies to wind turbines – 20-25yrs life and need a lot of lubrication and maintenance too.

The real bottom line is that folk need to stop being so greedy, stop making so many unnecessary journeys, a cultural change from consumerism and control the population. None of that will happen. It's telling on society when folk have to go to a gym to get excercise and we import 70% of our food 'cos no-one want to pick the stuff.

(I say that as someone who's about to go to the gym despite 50 acres of land but that's cos my back problems limit the type of excercise I can do – but at least i pick my own fruit)

pgk

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

In NZ the NZTA publish the vehicle registration statistics. In 2018 there was in the order of 200,000 new vehicle registrations. Those vehicles ranged from scooters to articulated trucks and larger.

The power ratings for every vehicle is given, and the average power of all the vehicles was around 100Kw. If the average annual mileage is assumed to be 10,000 miles (or 16000km) at say an average speed of 50km/hr then the average usage is 320hrs/year. Now those vehicles aren't going to be driven at full power so let’s say they are driven at 20% of the max power.

So 20% x 100Kw x 320hrs x 200,000 vehicles = 1,280,000 Megawatt/hrs of generation would be required. That’s a 150Megawatt power station running 24×7

There are 4Million vehicles registered in NZ. If they eventually all became electric then the power generation required would be 20 times that required for the 2018 registrations. That would be a 3,000Megawatt power station. The total generation capacity in NZ is currently 9,237Megawatts.

OK I accept there will be many other factors to be taken into consideration but surely somebody in the industry is doing a detailed analysis of what will be required and coming up with answers? Particularly; if we do need to generate this additional power how do we get it to where it is needed?

[Alan Waddington 2Participant @alanwaddington2]

Interesting real world experience, however if we are all forced down the EV route, those charging stations you mentioned had better have hundreds of charging points, otherwise the queues will be horrendous. Even with recharge times of 15-20 minutes if they have limited charging points it would potentially take forever to actually get on one in the first place.

Posted by pgk pgk on 09/06/2019 06:56:15:

Nigel:

Back to some figures from experience. Cold wet winter at night using motorways (as opposed to tiny country lanes) and I'd still expect over 200 miles range. As it happens it's short trips in the cold on narrow lanes when you have to keep sowing down that when the car is 'less efficient' – but then probably an ICE is too. Nice warm dry weather and 300 miles is doable at motoreway speeds.

I live in very rural wales and it's 7 miles each way to my nearest petrol station – so unless going that way or ona trip where stops allow a fill on route with an ICE it costs me 1/2 a gallon to refill my innefficient old 200sx. Electric I can top up at home.

Yes, gov will find a way of recovering their lost fuel revenue – lots of tax ways to do that (suggestions include GPS based road usage, higher excise duty, huge tax on insurance premiums and so forth)

Yes some EV's can tow.. model X is rated thus. Yes it affects range.

Clogs:

Paris to Bordeaux. Google tells me it's circa 360 miles with superchargers en route.. It depends on which model and battery size your mate had in his Tesla. If I was doing that run in my 100D I'd start by planning a full 100% top-up overnight (309 theoretical miles range) and then find a supercharger between 200-250 miles away if possible so i can hammer my foot down without worrying about range. I'd then top up to 80% charge which would take between 45-60 mins while I pee, clean the windows of bugs and read the paper. I now have 240 miles range to complete the journey assuming charge facilities at destination. If not I'd do another top-up near that destination.

There are constant improvements. The new Model3 75KW battery on the newest superchargers (still being installed) would be able to go 1st stage similar distance but top-up in 15-20mins.

Either car could do the trip non-stop in perfect weather if it stuck to steady 60mph on motorways with light traffic When chargers are more frequent and one can avoid planning.

I wouldn't be planning if doing that trip in my aged 200sx… I'd just drive until the tank read 1/8th left and expect to find petrol within the next 30 miles. It is a guzzler at motorway speeds and 32mpg if lucky so the whole tank range is under 300 miles. I did a run from london to prague in it once. At autobahn speeds I could see the fuel needle moving and had to refuel inside 2 hrs @120mph (top speed 130)…My reflexes aren't good enough these days to drive like that but I'd feel a lot safer in my tesla at 120 (top speed 150) and even though the leccy drain would be high it'd still be lots less than the recharge rate so driving it fast and stopping more often still works out best time.

Edit: One last point. If using petrol it still takes 5 mins to refuel, another minute or three to walk to kiosk and pay and a few mins to go pee. With an EV you get out and plug-in. The car deals with the fuelling, the charger debits you account automatically. It still takes the same time to pee but you can still argue a few mins off the refuel time differences.

Edited By pgk pgk on 09/06/2019 07:11:03

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Doubletop:

Did you get MW and GW mixed up? More to the point is when the power is required and total GWhours. I guess that's one of the reasons for the farce over 'smart' metering to push folk to using leccy when there is spare capacity and potentially time-slice consumers?

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Alan Waddington 2 on 09/06/2019 09:57:24:

Interesting real world experience, however if we are all forced down the EV route, those charging stations you mentioned had better have hundreds of charging points, otherwise the queues will be horrendous. Even with recharge times of 15-20 minutes if they have limited charging points it would potentially take forever to actually get on one in the first place.

It's a problem they have hit in parts of the US but really only applies on those long journeys when you do need to refuel. Remember that at the moment folk can't fuel an ICE at home so in reality EV users shouldn't need quite the same facilities as one thinks of for ICE.
I have been close to a wait recently.. Telford has 8 superchargers and last time I dropped in there I got on the last free one but 15 min later i was the only car still there.

The US experience is amplified by the fact that early adopters were given free charging (as I have) so tend to top up fully rather than do so at home and pay on own bills. One way to reduce this US has been to institute a parking fee over 80% charge when the charge rate drops. Equally a lot of businesses have adopted charging points for customer convenience.. the slow ones are usually free (OK for a leaf or plug-in prius, little use for my guzzler) and pay points on faster chargers. I understand that Sainsbury in sutton surrey has 32x7KW charge points in their car park? Lidl claim to be putting charge points in slowly and all BP garages are supposed to be installing 150KW chargers from this year. It will be a slow process but then so was the building of petrol stations.

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

I completely agree with Dave. There are a lot of references in this thread to 'powers that be' etc and not planning for the future – that Britain started to die in the 1980s under 'there is no such thing as society' Thatcher . We have a government whose core (only) policy is to minimise all government planning, regulation, has privatised all public assets even if it makes no sense (like rail). That means there is no real planning for an electric car future from central government – it's all left to the private sector. The likely next PM will take us even further down that route. Leaving the EU will also take us away from the idea of centralised planning and regulation. So we can't blame central government for this – they are just doing what they said they would.

Having said that the EU is one of the major global forces driving EV and purely because the bulk of our cars are built in the EU the UK has no real alternative but to follow. Leaving the EU just means we have no say in the matter.

I do think there are great opportunities for British engineering firms in this area though.

[Anonymous]

Posted by pgk pgk on 09/06/2019 09:48:06:

There's even suggestion on the horizon for combining traditional batteries with new capacitor tech which theoretically speeds up getting a charge into the car.

A good few years back we designed a battery pack for a hybrid that utilised a lead acid battery with carbon in the cathode (I think) which essentially created a part battery part supercapacitor. See this research paper, the electronics and battery I designed are on the right in Figure 5:

**LINK**

Separate supercapacitors are currently very good at accepting and delivering charge but the problem is limited voltage. Stacking them in series quickly reduces the capacitance.

I've just thrown in my job so I'll be back down to less than 6000 miles a year driving. I cycle to work in the summer (5 miles each way). Over the years it's changed from a pleasant ride in the country to busy roads and now just plain bl**dy dangerous. Due to road "improvements" there are now long queues of cars in the other direction to me. Cars coming my way can't be bothered to wait so squeeze through leaving a few inches between them and me.

Can't say I've been very successful growing vegetables but I do grow a significant amount of fruit. Economically it's daft to grow, say, carrots when I can buy a large bag for less than a pound. But have you seen the price of rhubarb? Not to mention blueberries and raspberries! I'd rather grow my own along with gooseberries and currants whcih you never see in the shops.

Andrew

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Andrew Evans on 09/06/2019 10:18:19:

…

Having said that the EU is one of the major global forces driving EV and purely because the bulk of our cars are built in the EU the UK has no real alternative but to follow. Leaving the EU just means we have no say in the matter.

I do think there are great opportunities for British engineering firms in this area though.

The greatest EV uptake in europe is in Norway… not a member of the EU. Globally the largest amount of EV's are US and soon China. That's not to detract from the EU intentions to move to EV but they aren't leading yet. And you donlt have to be in the EU to make the move to EV. Norways success has been down to the level of subsidy and (I think) free recharging en route. The limiting factor for EV production is battery manufacture and what technology method is used.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by not done it yet on 08/06/2019 18:16:55:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 08/06/2019 08:45:39:

This is a very valid point about plug in vehicles. Rather than looking at max power look at range and batttery capacity in kWh The new Nisan leaf is 160miles and 40kWh so thats 250Wh per mile. A 2h commute at 50MPH is 100miles and 25kWh so still over 100A. for a 10h charge.
Good excuse to get a 3 phase supply laid in

There is also the question of where the electricity will come from. We need more (next generation) nuclear power.

My employer also owns a car dealership and a few years ago we were offered a deal for 50% off the lease cost of a small electric car (had to participate in research study data logger etc). I did the sums and even charging for free at work it would still be cheaper to run my 6 year old 150hp turbodiesel estate car for 4 years and then scrap it than to lease the electric.

Robert G8RPI

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 08/06/2019 09:09:54

Some of this post is sensible. But:

Exactly how does 25kwh,over 10 hours, equate to 100A?

By simple calculation that would be 2.5kW for ten hours (ignoring innefficiencies) 2.5kW is rather less than a 13 A plug can deliver. So let’s get real! I suggest you try again!

So no reason at all for a 3 phase supply.

More renewables is what is needed, not necessarily more nuclear. Not that any intermittent energy supply will cover all loads all of the time, of course. We need a lot more tidal generation as well – output can be calculated years in advance – and more storage (a small amount compared with hourly usage – but every bit helps. Better to import energy via inter-connectors, but that, of course, carries problems with out-sourcing a national necessary commodity.

Clearly electric car leasing has come down in cost since “several years ago”.

Your case study does not provide any detail. One cannot fairly compare a “small electric car”. For a start, the ICE car had been written down to a quite low value after 6 years, so comparing the capital value of an old car with the historical high cost of electric cars several years ago (expensive and low range). The ICEcar may well have been ready for the scrap heap after ten years, anyway ( my current ‘run-around’ is a small diesel which is about 22 years old, mind)

So only the first paragraph is sensible.

You are correct on the current, 100A is a 1 hour charge. I really must pay more attention.
There is no renewable or combination of renewables that can provide 24/7/365 supply without storage. Batteries (in "walls" or cars) are not a viable long term solution.
My car comparison was a personal situation, not generic. The diesel estate is still going strong over 4 years later. The cost of an electric would still be more than a diesel for me even for a new lease (at full price).

Robert G8RPI.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Veggie growing has been a nightmare for me too…just had all my brassicas and beans eaten by slugs and weather turned cold so the carrots and parsnip seeds failed. As you say its cheap to buy. I do way better in the greenhouse and half the year have surplusses of salad stuffs.
I still haven't finished eating last years blueberry crop (frozen) and have just finished the currants. I always have a goosegog surplus but sadly the rasps have been overtaken by weeds. Apples, pears, plums in excess but the darned birds get all my cherries and most of my grapes.

Still with cheap fuel for my car it's no sweat to drive 15 miles to Lidl's for the veg.

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

However you juggle the figures around, the UK apparently uses about 1 million tonnes of petroleum per week for all transport. plus almost another half million for other uses (according to Gov't figures)

Someone will no doubt be able to work out the electrical equivalent, but that sounds like a lot of gigawatts to me

Think I might start breeding horses

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Posted by pgk pgk on 09/06/2019 10:26:48:

The greatest EV uptake in europe is in Norway… not a member of the EU. Globally the largest amount of EV's are US and soon China. That's not to detract from the EU intentions to move to EV but they aren't leading yet. And you donlt have to be in the EU to make the move to EV. Norways success has been down to the level of subsidy and (I think) free recharging en route. The limiting factor for EV production is battery manufacture and what technology method is used.

Norway is not a good example as most of their power generation is hydro and the cars there are imported, also they had massive incentives to change to EV no doubt funded by fossil fuel. The UK would be in a similar position as we have no large scale battery manufactures or EV car manufacturers.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Back to the electric / IC comparison. Quick wed search gives a Nissan leaf at £318 pm and a Fiat Panda 5 door at £155 PM (including inital payment) Plus £12 pm road tax for the IC car gives a difference of £151 pm. Assumng about 40 MPG thats 0.11 litres per mile at £1.5o per litre (inflation allowance) thats 17p per mile so the Panda can do 880 miles per month (10,000 per year) for "free". Even at a typical mileage payment of 37p is 400 free miles per month (4900 per year) even if the Leaf was charged for free.

Robert G8RPI.

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