Electricity Supply

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Bazyle, I shall go and sit on the naughty step, I have three daughters.

Dave W

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Be happy [at least if you live where the sun shines] : **LINK**

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-48530488/the-solar-power-charged-electric-cars-making-money

MichaelG.

[Bob Brown 1Participant @bobbrown1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/06/2019 22:42:04:

Be happy [at least if you live where the sun shines] : **LINK**

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-48530488/the-solar-power-charged-electric-cars-making-money

MichaelG.

May work on a tiny island (12 x 6 miles) with very few roads but lets get real out side of a small island it isn't going work.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Bob Brown 1 on 11/06/2019 22:53:45:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/06/2019 22:42:04:

Be happy [at least if you live where the sun shines] : **LINK**

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-48530488/the-solar-power-charged-electric-cars-making-money

MichaelG.

May work on a tiny island (12 x 6 miles) with very few roads but lets get real out side of a small island it isn't going work.

 

Why not?  Modellers take full size machines and scale them down, so why should this not work, scaled up, on a bigger island?

Not necessarily including the UK here as it is clearly at a different latitude, but no reason why is might not work to some extent?

Edited By not done it yet on 11/06/2019 23:08:40

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

O.K. Bob … I'll get real and keep my 325 until either it or I drop

… Is that better ?

MichaelG.

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

The island in question is tiny and has very few roads but a huge runway right across the middle of the island.

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

I have an friend in the local pub who's job is connecting BIG cables to sub-stations, wind turbines etc. I guess he is going to be busy for the next 20 years.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 12/06/2019 03:57:07:

I have an friend in the local pub who's job is connecting BIG cables to sub-stations, wind turbines etc. I guess he is going to be busy for the next 20 years.

He won’t be the only one doing it! Lots of fossil fuel workers will be looking for alternative employment, for a start.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

**LINK**

One has to wonder at our politicians… make a commitmment for enough time in the future when they will no longer be about to carry any failure.

One gets the impression they think a few more solar panels and a wind turbine or two will do. Reality is a huge order of magnitude increase in energy generation with their naive ideas of Hydrogen use (if not from fossil gasses then even more electricity needed). Nuclear with it's decommissioning costs is hardly cheap either and planting a few trees in a third world country or buying carbon credits are also a paperwork joke – just fuels more corruption.

It's also illogical to cover good farmland in generators and import food.

[clogsParticipant @clogs]

in Sept I will be living on a very hot dry island in the eastern Med…..

perfect for solar panels, all rocky and nothing but spikey weeds growing but very little in the way of commercial solar panel systems tho…shame…..

as for an electric car or pick-up, it's be entirely suitable BUT the stupid initial cost of such a vehicle rules it out….

even if the electric was free…..

we need the next jump in technology right now…..prob find that Shell, BP and others have snuffled it all out of existence …..damm shame….

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Clogs:

Your opportunity to shine awaits… I'd suggest a steam powered transport using focussed mirrors and lenses to heat the water a la steampunk. Also a stationary sterling for leccy generation..again mirrors to heat and seawater evaporation to cool. Or just collect, ferment and distill those spikey plants….

[Gordon AParticipant @gordona]

The government has announced that all homes in the UK will not be heated by natural gas by the middle of the century. Is the alternative electricity? . Where will it all come from?

To quote Private Fraser, "We're all doomed".

Gordon.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Is that so?

It differs significantly from an announcement several weeks ago now, that new houses built from a certain year ( which I forget) will not be connected to the mains gas network.

The question of the source of all that extra electricity is too difficult for most politicians. That will be for their [great-]grandchildren's generations to solve, assuming future schools bother to teach anything related to science and engineering.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 12/06/2019 17:28:00:

Is that so?

It differs significantly from an announcement several weeks ago now, that new houses built from a certain year ( which I forget) will not be connected to the mains gas network.

.

For what it's worth [which, regrettably, seems to be 'not much' these days] here is a direct quote from The Independent:

" Hitting net zero – a 100 per cent cut in emissions – will mean an end to heating of homes with traditional gas boilers, more green electricity, and a switch from petrol and diesel cars to electric vehicles, walking and cycling."

MichaelG.

.

Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-global-warming-2050-law-climate-change-uk-a8954406.html

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/06/2019 17:47:05

[BikepeteParticipant @bikepete]

The actual source material is easy enough to find:

**LINK**

You can click through to download both the Main Report and the Technical Report.

The relevant quote from the Main report is from page 145:

"Heating in buildings. Deploying the Further Ambition options for heating buildings would result in emissions of 4 MtCO2e in 2050. This requires roll-out of technologies such as heat pumps, hybrid heat pumps and district heating in conjunction with hydrogen, and new smart storage heating, combined with high levels of energy efficiency. New homes should not be connected to the gas grid from 2025. By 2035 almost all replacement heating systems for existing homes must be low-carbon or ready for hydrogen, such that the share of low-carbon heating increases from 4.5% today to 90% in 2050. These changes could be made at an average cost of around £140/tCO2e. Remaining emissions in 2050 largely come from a small proportion of homes which could be very expensive to treat (e.g. due to space constraints and the costs of the heating systems they require)."

[Alan BoneParticipant @alanbone]

Love the leccy cars. I want to go visit a mate in Adelaide, next state over. Battery Cars have range of 250 km / 160 miles, Adelaide is about 2700 km from Perth, 10 charges if it were possible. On the Eyre Highway / Nullarbor fuel stops are about every 300 km with NOTHING in between, run out of power 50 km before next service station, WONDERFUL. My petrol car has a range of 500+ km. I usually get there in 2.5 days with 2 overnight stops, 1100 km per day as I do not hurry.

Alan

[doubletopParticipant @doubletop]

Posted by Alan Bone on 12/06/2019 19:28:52:

Love the leccy cars. I want to go visit a mate in Adelaide, next state over. Battery Cars have range of 250 km / 160 miles, Adelaide is about 2700 km from Perth, 10 charges if it were possible. On the Eyre Highway / Nullarbor fuel stops are about every 300 km with NOTHING in between, run out of power 50 km before next service station, WONDERFUL. My petrol car has a range of 500+ km. I usually get there in 2.5 days with 2 overnight stops, 1100 km per day as I do not hurry.

Alan

Alan

The Australians already have the solution

**LINK**

But it may take a while and the wife and kids will have to fly……….

On a serious note it is encouraging to see that the we are now seeking formal documents on the subject rather than trotting out 'she'll be right', wind, solar, batteries and smart chargers will sort it…

Pete

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Regarding heating of domestic properties – there are already heat pumps which can provide more space heating than the gas used to generate the electricity used by the pump. (Use the gas to produce electricity and then use the electricity to run a heat pump with an advantageous COP (Coefficient Of Performance)). Clearly the electrical supply will need to be reinforced for the change. But remember that natural gas is a finite resource. North Sea gas has mostly been used up in the last 50 years. Something will have to change, sooner or later. No point in sticking one’s head in the sand and ignoring the reality of the situation.

Many houses are still poorly insulated. Many houses are heated throughout which, again, is unnecessary. Already high-rise buildings are built without a gas supply because of the explosion risk. Better house building techniques may well be needed. But things can not go on as they have done for the last 60 years – something must change.

A relative in Canada had a ground source heat pump heating system installed about 30 years ago (perhaps more). The house is a proverbial mansion. Ground-source is rather more expensive to install but should have a far better COP than air sourced heat pumps. Technology is improving all the time.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

NDIY, you say houses are poorly insulated and better building techniques will be needed, there are currently a series of quality problems with houses that are being built by some of this countries major house builders, they need to seriously up their game to build houses that are compliant to current standards, are we going to have to rely on market forces to ensure future houses meet improved standards. I fear that the profit greed will mean we will always get houses basically not fit for purpose, I am glad my house is now nearly 60 years old and wearing well for its age and thankfully I have gas heating which works for me.

Dave W

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Alan Bone on 12/06/2019 19:28:52:

Love the leccy cars. I want to go visit a mate in Adelaide, next state over. Battery Cars have range of 250 km / 160 miles, Adelaide is about 2700 km from Perth, 10 charges if it were possible. On the Eyre Highway / Nullarbor fuel stops are about every 300 km with NOTHING in between, run out of power 50 km before next service station, WONDERFUL. My petrol car has a range of 500+ km. I usually get there in 2.5 days with 2 overnight stops, 1100 km per day as I do not hurry.

Alan

go on the train!

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Alan Bone on 12/06/2019 19:28:52:

Love the leccy cars. I want to go visit a mate in Adelaide, next state over. Battery Cars have range of 250 km / 160 miles, Adelaide is about 2700 km from Perth, 10 charges if it were possible. On the Eyre Highway / Nullarbor fuel stops are about every 300 km with NOTHING in between, run out of power 50 km before next service station, WONDERFUL. My petrol car has a range of 500+ km. I usually get there in 2.5 days with 2 overnight stops, 1100 km per day as I do not hurry.

Alan

Progress takes time but that is no reason to avoid it or criticise it. It may be impractical right now on that journey but for example one might consider and engineer a future where your car snags an overhead power line as trams and trolley buses do and only needs a tiny , light battery to get you across interchanges – no fuelling stops at all.
Before the railway your choices were sail round or a tedious trip with horse and cart and months of supplies.

Whatever the answers may be it's clear we cannot go on as we do. 350mile range at 60mph is available now, >400 is due soon – but it costs and I guess that battery supplies will be finite too. or we stop travelling 'just to visit a mate' and use video links.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Samsaranda on 12/06/2019 22:17:21:

NDIY, you say houses are poorly insulated and better building techniques will be needed, there are currently a series of quality problems with houses that are being built by some of this countries major house builders, they need to seriously up their game to build houses that are compliant to current standards, are we going to have to rely on market forces to ensure future houses meet improved standards. I fear that the profit greed will mean we will always get houses basically not fit for purpose, I am glad my house is now nearly 60 years old and wearing well for its age and thankfully I have gas heating which works for me.

Dave W

Mine is 45 years old. It was built with open cavity walls – normal for that time. There was just 25mm of insulation in the roof. The floor was simply screed over an in-filled concrete base. Single glazed windows and doors with no draught proofing.

I have since had cavity wall insulation inserted, added about 350-400mm of loft insulation, fitted double glazed windows with draught-proof strips and virtually done away with the flue in the lounge. Can’t do a lot about the floor, but it will lose less heat to the soil than a ventilated timber floor. Even the patio door (fitted about the same time as the windows) has secondary double glazing for when not in use, as does the large window in the lounge. The back door is no longer used, so has been sealed with secondary glazing. The original back boiler in the lounge has been replaced by a balanced flue boiler in what is now the utility room (after an extention was built on).

So houses were not built to decent insulation standards, even 45 years ago. Older houses were likely worse. I know that these improvements have saved far more in fuel bills than the cost of the insulation. Just plain common sense to upgrade the soft-wood single glazed windows – to save umpteen coats of paint and still they would rot away

If all the lights of the original house were switched on they consumed about a kilowatt. Those same number of lights are now flourescents or LEDs. They would consume around 200W now.

Yes, we have gas central heating, but that will change in the future (likely long after I have expired) because the resource will have diminished to the point where the cost would be very high, compared to the last 50 years (when our North Sea supplies have basically been squandered). Norway will likely still have its gas reserves because they have refrained from using them up in the way the UK has used ours. It was simply a short term fix for the UK, back in the 1960s. Now almost gone!

Personally, I would not want to buy a new house from the major house builders, these days. Like most things – built to a cost, not a quality. My house would further benefit from 50mm of insulation on the inside of every external wall, but I doubt it will get it while I am here. But one never knows….

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A few people have mentioned ground-source heat pumps, and a thought has occurred to me.

This should not be confused with geothermal water plant such as in Iceland, and I think experimentally in Cornwall.

If you drill a water borehole, you risk abstracting water faster than the aquifer can be recharged naturally, creating a funnel-shaped volume of drier ground which if I recall correctly is called something like the "cone of depletion". The natural rate of recharge depends on the local geology and of course weather; but will be affected if there are many other boreholes in the vicinity.

'

Now, does a similar depletion rule apply to extracting heat from the ground? Very little, if any, of this heat is from the Sun, except only in the surface soil – and that is obviously greater in Summer.

Most subterranean heat is conducted through the Earth's Crust and overlying cover rocks from the Mantle far below, which is heated by radioactive decay. It might be augmented very slightly in a few areas sitting on huge granite intrusions, like Cornwall, due to scattered traces of uranium still decaying in that rock; but these are exceptions.

So recharge of heat is not rapid, but slow and steady.

The volume of the ground, consequently heat held, is obviously enormous; but will estates of houses or large district-heating schemes with their ground-heat pumps all purring virtuously away, create similar depletion cones around themselves by extracting heat from their volume of ground faster than its replenishment? And of course, this will be when everyone needs that heat – in Winter, when any augmentation the Sun might offer, is minimal!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Doubletop on 12/06/2019 21:01:17:

Posted by Alan Bone on 12/06/2019 19:28:52:

Love the leccy cars. I want to go visit a mate in Adelaide, next state over. Battery Cars have range of 250 km / 160 miles, Adelaide is about 2700 km from Perth, 10 charges if it were possible. On the Eyre Highway / Nullarbor fuel stops are about every 300 km with NOTHING in between, run out of power 50 km before next service station, WONDERFUL. My petrol car has a range of 500+ km. I usually get there in 2.5 days with 2 overnight stops, 1100 km per day as I do not hurry.

Alan

…

 

On a serious note it is encouraging to see that the we are now seeking formal documents on the subject rather than trotting out 'she'll be right', wind, solar, batteries and smart chargers will sort it…

Pete

 

Not sure anyone is suggesting 'wind, solar, batteries and smart chargers will sort it' in the sense that life carries on exactly as it does today.

I don't see renewable energy as a one-for-one alternative to fossil fuels. Instead I see them as a way of softening the blow. Ideally most people most of the time can carry on. Otherwise, given time, people always adapt to what's available.

The good news for Alan and anyone else who absolutely must burn fuel is that everyone who switches to electric takes the pressure off the cost of oil. Electric Vehicles are valuable even if they don't happen to suit our personal circumstances.

More good news if you're Australian; not only does the continent have generous reserves of fossils fuels, there's also plenty of sun! It may be necessary for 60,000,000 winging poms to move in…

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 13/06/2019 10:13:25

[FarmboyParticipant @farmboy]

To answer my own earlier question I looked up the energy equivalent of petroleum (crude oil) which the International Energy Agency defines as 11.63 MWh/tonne.

1 million tonnes of oil per week (total used for all transport) = 5,952 tonnes/hour = about 69 GWh.

Current UK demand on the National Grid seems to average around 35GW, so switching all transport from petroleum fuels to electric traction would seem to require an increase of almost 200% in generation capacity, although potential efficiency savings might reduce this figure. However, roughly half current generation appears to be from fossil fuels so we will need to increase generation by at least 400% from 'other sources' if we are to stop using petroleum fuels altogether.

I can't begin to imagine the changes my grandchildren will see, but our current systems will certainly need upgrading pretty soon if they are to have any hope of a decent life, even if my figures are inaccurate . . . which will no doubt be pointed out shortly

Mike.

[Author]

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