Wadkin AGS 10 – fence clamp help

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

Hi all

I have inherited my Father’s workshop, and although he had everything he needed, most of it is rough and needs TLC.

The Wadkin AGS10 is rough, and a lack of extraction hasn’t helped.

I got a new V-belt and it’s cutting OK – so I will spend some time getting it cleaned up and safe before spending money on a new Blade and getting the extraction/vac hose fitted.

Firstly, the Fence is broken. It’s been fixed/messed-with previously, and I want to get that resolved.

It is the back clamp piece that is broken, and I’m hoping that I can either find a replacement part or else repair it properly. The business-end (Clamp) seems to work fine, but it just doesn’t have enough meat/grip on the back fence slide bar to make it square. So it can actually be like 1/4″ out and needs to be squared up manually.

Does anyone have a spare part I can buy at a reasonable price, OR could anyone send me a few pics and details of the part so I can determine how far that hook needs to be and any other details that I would need to add?

If I can get it right, I will buy some nylon for the fence and get it perfectly square and running smooth.

Cheers

[renardiere7Participant @renardiere7]

That looks very similar, if not identical to the fence clamping arrangement on my Startrite saw bench.  Have you tried contacting any of the big woodworking machinery dealers to ask about spares?  Scott & Sargeant in Horsham come to mind and I’m pretty sure there is someone specialising in Wadkin stuff up around Amersham way.  To be honest I think you will be lucky to find a spare but I suspect it would be a fairly simple to have laser cut and welded together.

If I remember tomorrow I’ll grab some pics of my fence clamp for you.

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

Hi renardiere

I haven’t contacted anyone yet.

I have seen some stupid prices for parts on eBay, so I’m not expecting a dealer to be reasonable.

It does seem that I can buy a refurbished machine for great money (e.g. £600), but if you want just a small part, the vultures start circling.

I don’t have access to laser cutting. I think I can mill or hand grind that square and turn a bush to pin or/and weld on.

cheers

[Mark EasingwoodParticipant @markeasingwood33578]

Hi again Danni,

The AGS models  changed to a single end fence, probably in the eighties.

We had one like yours, where I worked from 1979-1989, it’s long gone now tho’.

All Wadkin spares are expensive, when you can find them.

Here is a LINK to a pdf of the manual, with the part you require on P11.

And a LINK to showing a single end version, note that HSE don’t like fences that reach beyond half the blade diameter.

Mark.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Not used one for a long time but this video shows the end is a complete U shape. Squaring up should be taken care of at the user end and the far end just pulls the fence down when clamped. You may have play or the far end is dragging.

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

Thanks Jason

Yep looks like semi-circle and a straight. duplicate of the opposite.

Also looks liek there is nothing else to complicate. I will watch the clip and do more searching tomorrow.

[Danni Burns]

On Danni Burns Said:

..if you want just a small part, the vultures start circling.

Why such emotive language? When considering spare parts availability for obsolete industrial equipment, it would make more sense to view the issue from both sides – you as a consumer and a business person, who is supplying those parts.

When you sit on the other side of the fence to your own position (pretend for a moment that you are trying to feed your family via an honest day’s work at your small business), you might be more careful in the words you write.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I am amazed at the damage some people can do to machines !

I have no idea how that fence could have ended up like that, but it did.

You may have difficulty finding a replacement, but it looks very similar to the fence on my Startright saw [Dealer told me never try to take it apart, since it,s like a rat trap inside ! ]

Dont understand why the HSE dislike full length fences, I have been using them for years. Providing they have clearence at the back end, there should be no fear of them binding on the workpiece.

For what it,s worth, I believe that spares for Startright machines are not too easy to find either.

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

dc31k

Do you have that part available? Do you have a pic of it that would assist me and progressing this discussion?

Maybe you could offer your professional opinion on what a fair price (not words. £) would be for a fair condition part.

 

 

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

Larry – this bloke got his stripped and back together easily enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8i_CJ90dLY

I had actually seen his earlier video where he restores the Saw – He’s no NASA engineer.

cheers

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

Larry – correction on my earlier comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1GsJn9ItWE

Looks like it may be a real ‘rat trap’ after all

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Hi Danni, maybe my guy was right !

I was never brave enough to find out and hope I never have to !

Just for the record, I have a home built saw bench,60 years young at this stage, which uses a simple piece of 2″x 3/8″ flat as a fence with two small purpose made G clamps.

This is simply set up using the left side table edge as a datum  to set the fence at the front and the back and then tapping the back end out a shade to give clearance, works a dream ! Nothing much to go wrong and spares ?  no problem !

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Hello Danni,

I think Wadkin are still out there somewhere, although I’m not sure in what capacity.  “Daltons Wadkin”  springs to mind.  Have you tried advancedmachinery.co.uk for Wadkin spares.

As an aside, Larry mentioned availability of Startrite spares.  Did Record Power not have some interest in Startrite?

[Danni Burns]

On Danni Burns Said:

…Maybe you could offer your professional opinion on what a fair price (not words. £) would be for a fair condition part.

 

 

There is no fair price and it can’t be expressed in pounds.  Instead:

• a customer needs an obsolete part to fix a broken old machine that’s long out of support.   A repaired machine has value, which only the customer knows.  That value determines the maximum price the customer should pay for the spare (and fitting it).   The value of the spare to the customer has no relationship with the cost of the spare.
• suppliers keep spares in hope a needy customer will buy one.  Keeping a stock of spares costs money:  rates, electricity, security, admin, stock-control, post, packing, wages, tax, wastage.   The customer isn’t paying for the item alone, the asking price covers a long list of overheads, plus profit.    And it’s risky:  a proportion of the stock will never sell, so keeping it for a few decades is a dead-loss.  Losses overall are counterbalanced by stuff that does sell, making them more expensive.   It’s a business.

Value varies.   If a customer needs the last spare in the world, he can expect the seller to try and maximise their profits by demanding a high-price.

If the spare is common, the seller drops the price considerably, enough to cover their overheads plus a small profit.  It’s usually more profitable to sell a large volume cheap, than a few at high prices, but many people fall for “reassuringly expensive”, assuming it must be good because it costs a bomb.  Or might sell at a loss just to get rid of an unprofitable line, because that offsets losses by bringing some money in.

Another example:  when the owner of my local radio shop retired he couldn’t find anyone to take the business on.   The value of a profitable business fell to zero.   To reduce losses, he ran a series of sales, successively dropping asking prices in hope customers would be tempted.   They were, but on closing day, everything that was left was dumped in a skip in the backyard, value negative, because he paid for a skip and disposal.  Contents free to passers-by.   Nothing fair about any of it.

Buying spares, tools, and metal in hobby quantities means we pay substantial overheads for the service.   So, buying metal, it pays in the long run to buy in quantity not dribs and drabs.   Buying full lengths removes cutting costs; sending by courier involves packing, and their fees, so order a bung it on the back of a lorry load; large orders reduce admin costs.  Small sales are so expensive, that many suppliers don’t do them at all, or have high minimum order quantities.   They’ve given up explaining to domestic customers why the retail price of steel is so high compared with wholesale, about £400/ton wholesale, less if you buy more than 50 tons…

So I pay an inflated price for steel in small quantities, because I don’t have space for a ton.  Space is more valuable to me than a lot of low cost metal.  It’s not unfair.

No point in moaning about it, our job as customers is to do the best we can.  Watch the cost of repairing old machines, often only affordable if we do them up as a hobby.

You could reverse engineer the broken hook and make your own: potentially expensive in time and money if it takes several tries.   I’d 3d-CAD model it and use 3D-prints as templates, tweaking the model until one fitted.  Then I’d make the real one in steel, mostly by milling.   If you did that how much would it cost, and what would be a fair selling price? A few thousands if you don’t already have a computer, CAD and a 3d-printer, plus the skills needed to drive them.  But doable at reaonable costs if you have the necessary already, especially time.

Not easy to be a customer or supplier.  The world isn’t fair.   What’s your budget?  The machine might be “BER”  – Beyond Economic Repair.

Dave

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

I think Dave has hit the nail on the head once again !

The price of ANYTHING is what someone is prepared to pay for it. Try buying bits for cars even a few years out of date. A friend of mine needed a headlamp for his 2006 Hi Ace van and found that they were not to be had for love or money, new or second hand, from Main Dealers or scrap yards. So, what chance machine spares ?

I suspect that this is something which will have to be made, not bought. Could be an interesting project, but costly in terms of time.

All depends on how much the machine is worth along with how bad the damage is, might be worth taking on as a labour-of-love, just for old times sake.

If the fence is the only problem, I,m sure something could be drummed up to suit, but if there are problems with other parts that might be a different matter.

Dave was right about metal suppliers, they cannot be bothered with small orders, not worth the trouble, living now out in the sticks,I know this only too well, but I dont blame them. I try to make a trip twice a year to pick up what I THINK I mignt need [sometimes I get it right !}, other times I just have to make-do.

It,s all about money, always was  always will be .

Old makers are disappearing faster than snow on a hot roof so dont expect to find spare parts easy

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I think I would be inclined to mill each side down to about half thickness and tap for some screws. Two 5mm steel plates with the “U” shaped cutout and matching holes would not take long to make.

Does not really need the gap between the plates filling in at the bottom as you will have the two plate edges to clamp the bottom of the bar, certainly enough for hobby use.

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

SOD and Larry thanks for the input.

I’m not getting involved in any further discussion about being ripped off for parts and materials. I know when I’m being taken for a mug, as I’m sure everyone on here does.

My instinct (I think like SOD’s) is to get a lump of steel (45x60x45long) and 4-jaw in lathe to Drill it. drill/mill the bottom (2 deep slots), then band saw and belt sander. Then mill or grind the part to 50% to semi circle. Possibly pin it and have it brazed.

Jason – as always, you have arrived as a much simpler and damn good solution, and I’m gonna draw it up tomorrow.

BUT I wonder if I could make it out of Square section Tube – so that I can remove one face and have that bottom filled and more strength. Else get a piece welded for same.

cheers

PS – If anyone has a Wadkin 10″ AGS with a Riving Knife fitted. I would really appreciate an outline of it, so I can get one cut. Thanks

[larry phelan 1]

On larry phelan 1 Said:

Dont understand why the HSE dislike full length fences, I have been using them for years. Providing they have clearence at the back end, there should be no fear of them binding on the workpiece.

 

Link to the HSE guidance HERE

The reason for no longer allowing full length fences, is to lower or remove the risk from “kickback”, when something binds on the rear half of the sawblade, due to being trapped between the fence and the blade, and is then violently ejected back at the operator at a great velocity.

A small strip of wood was ejected from the spindle moulder, and went straight through the hollow-core workshop door a few years back! A piece ejected from the saw bench went across the car park, as the roller door was open! (Avoid standing in the line of fire if possible).

For similar reasons, riviving knives and crown guards are also a requirement in the UK, although judging by the YouTube videos, not req’d in the USA.

If you don’t employ anyone, then it is probably not enforcable.

 

Danni, the inner radius of your riving knife only needs to be slightly greater than the sawblade radius, it also needs to be slightly thicker than the blade and the leading edge is usually slightly chamfered. The outer profile can be any shape, threr is usually a slot to attach it to the saw bench, and some holes at the top to attach the crown guard.

These are from an SCM panel saw.

Mark.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

If not clear from Mark’s photo the knife on the left is for a knife mounted crown guard the one on the right if it has overhead support.

Knife should be thicker than the disc of the blade but thinner than the overall kerf left by the blade.

I’ve got a similar hole in the door behind my saw! Short subfence mounted to the full length one should minimise the risk of a small piece getting kicked back but always best to try and keep the thin rips on the opposite side of the blade to the fence

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I wondered if this is best tackled as fabrication?  Is there a sprung tongue at the bottom that captures whatever clips into the  hook.

If so, maybe two side cheeks with a spacer between that has a gap in it for the tongue and spring.  I’m guessing wildly, never looked closely at one.  The circular saw at my school didn’t have any safety features; someone had removed them!  Might have been the metalwork master – he hated teenagers!

Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Would not want to have a spring at the bottom that would make it drag as you moved it across the saw from the operators side and less likely to square itself up. Just clamps onto a round bar, same as the front and as can be seen in the video I posted.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Does the knife not get in the way when cutting grooves, tenons, halflaps ect ?

I have had a few pieces get jammed between the blade and the fence, but only when crosscutting. This can be avoided by clamping a block to the fence to provide clearance.

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

Thanks to all for the input.

Hi Mark, and thanks for the pic and link. The HSE doc answers some of my questions. I could certainly draw/make a smaller Riving knife now. I think I had in mind a larger one where I could attach a crown guard to aid with extraction; however, I will probably scrap that idea (not wanting to pay silly money for parts), and will find another way of clamping an extraction hose nearby (top-side). The underneath extraction is going to be another problem.

I didn’t fully understand the full fence discussion. Jason, by ‘Short subfence mounted to the full length one’ are you saying that a fence is safer from the front of the table to 50% of the saw blade (so the material is not sandwiched and wants to lift/fly)? See below ‘A’:

That should be easy enough to do with a nylon strip, or better, a snug C-channel that can cover the fence and be removed easily.

NOTE that the saw blade is depicted in Red for danger for any of our colour-challenged readers.

 

Also, below is the pertinent info from Mark’s HSE attachment, re. Riving knives.

cheers

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Around that sort of position, mainly so the strip of wood can’t get pushed into the rear of the blade which can pick it up and then as the top of the blade is moving towards the operator it gets thrown backwards.

That is another reason the knife mounted crown guards are quite good as they can prevent work lifting too far off the table. If you have acces sto a 3D printer I expect one could be printed complete with dust hose port

You could have slots in your nylon face so the position can be altered or just make a couple of different lengths.

I do prefer a full length fence when working with sheet material as it is easier to feed an 8ft length straight when there is more fence for support but don’t lock the far end. My sliding table is quite small so can’t use that to guide large sheet material.

[Danni BurnsParticipant @danniburns84841]

Thanks Jason

I don’t have access to 3D printing, unfortunately.

If anyone does have (or if you have a suitable drawing for the Crown Guard part), can you give me a PM, please?

cheers

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